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Author Topic: I did some Maths!  (Read 12232 times)

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Titandrake

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2015, 11:45:49 pm »
+4

To original post: This is kind of neat as an exercise, but it's not that helpful for actually playing Dominion. Your distribution of money each turn is much more important - even in decks with 1 Smithy + treasures, it's not important that you hit a certain money density, it's important how often you spike $8 from either Golds or Smithies, because that spike is what gets you to $8 while cycling your deck. (Which is also why 1 Smithy + treasures loses to 1 Smithy + 2nd or 3rd bought at the right time + treasures, but wins against too-many-Smithies + treasures.) If you want to do more, I'd definitely recommend doing simulations instead of trying to work out the probabilities by hand, unless you're doing this for personal math fulfillment in which case do what you want.

To, like, everything else: There is a line between criticism and constructive criticism, except it's not a line, it's a sliding scale, and this whole debacle is about where people think this falls on that scale, yada yada etc.

Addressing SCSN's comment in particular:

Improperly explained complaints are basically worthless - if that person doesn't know why something is bad, how is telling them "this is useless" and not explaining WHY going to actually change anything? You did make some earlier constructive comments about it, but I think they're too succinct. Shorter comments are better if you can get away with it, but only if you can get away with it. In this scenario of a clearly new poster making a post that indirectly displays some misconceptions about the useful points of Dominion, your post reads like a brick wall. I don't think I would have been able to identify where you point out why this heuristic is bad if I hadn't had the same point explained to me a while ago, on this very forum, but in more detail and with more explanation. Even then, I still missed the tail end of that sentence the first time through because surprise - assuming someone is going to catch every word of your sentence in a post on an internet forum is highly optimistic. My overall feeling is that it's well-intentioned, but misguided, and it reads badly from a newcomer perspective.

---

In the extreme, badly explained or unexplained criticism leads to very tight communities that are incredibly difficult to get into without lurking for months, in hopes that you don't make a fool of yourself when you finally make a post about strategy instead of random stuff. I'd rather avoid that.
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theory

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2015, 12:12:13 am »
+5

Let's move on.  I will assume SCSN was making a ill-advised pun and had no particularly mean intentions.  I will also assume we all know that we should be treating people who present new ideas nicely, so as not to discourage people from presenting new ideas. 

==

I think that there is potential in firefrog's approach though it's obviously a little simplistic.  If you wanted to model something more sophisticated I suggest you start with considering cards like Market, which are basically an invisible "+$1" to your hand.
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Witherweaver

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2015, 09:24:30 am »
+1


So, yeah, welcome to the forum!

Forum games, etc. etc.
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market squire

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2015, 12:14:55 pm »
+2

The topic that firefrog raises is quite interesting imo.
I wouldn't calculate my exact money power, but I think it is important to have a feeling about it. I also have thought about the money strength of a deck quite similarly.
For example, it is helpful to know how much +$ you can expect to get from a Smithy.
It should be good in gameplay to think like "every card that I add to my deck makes my average money approach that value".

I don't understand the Action part of your formula.
How can you define the variable A by using itself in that term?

To be able to make more situational conclusions, you may add a formula for average deviation.
Like, in a deck with many Silvers, you'll have a smaller deviation than in a deck with Golds and Curses.
Also there could be another formula that counts your Actions as Curses (for terminal draw).
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Witherweaver

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2015, 12:17:29 pm »
0

Well, more statistics than average value would be important, like variance.  Also, deck tracking is probably more important in many cases.  It's not so helpful that the average card value of your deck is $1.9 or whatever if all your Golds are in your discard pile and you're not going to get a Shuffle from  your Smithy. 

Edit: Oh,  you brought up the point of deviation.
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firefrog

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2015, 02:26:53 pm »
0

Is this different than the expected coin value of your hand each turn?

You can use this to get the expected coin value. Just take in account that the formula always work with 5 cards in hand. If you do 5*P you will get the avarage value even if you only have coins and draw cards.

I think you can include every single card in the game bassed on this formula. But we need to add a "benefit over time" condition. Something like:

bot = ("Power your deck will get each time yo play this card"/"Amount of turns it takes to replay the card") - "Turns left to end"

And it may not be difficult to get an easy aproximation of the turns left to end. Using "Average deck power of each player" and "Amount of green cards left". (Adding something more for the 3 piles end)
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werothegreat

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2015, 02:29:28 pm »
0

To British people: why is "maths" plural, but "sport" singular?
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qmech

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2015, 04:07:04 pm »
+1

Maths isn't plural: it just has an "s" on the end.  If sport were short for sportematics I'm sure we'd also call it sports.
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Deadlock39

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2015, 04:09:14 pm »
0

WanderingWinder

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2015, 05:25:29 pm »
0

The biggest problem with looking at things formulaically like this is that it really starts coming apart when you deal with draw-your-deck engines. There, the math is way more about getting yourself to consistently-draw-my-deck-land AFAP (as fast as possible). Once you ARE there, it then becomes about increasing the total economic output of your deck, without damaging your ability to draw the thing. And once you're talking about the economic output of your whole deck, you can just count it - the formula is going to have a problem with running out of cards anyway (yes, you can fix that, but it's really more trouble than it is worth).

pacovf

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2015, 06:15:31 pm »
0

Maths are singular!?!?

Who allowed this!?
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Witherweaver

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2015, 06:18:34 pm »
0

Maths are singular!?!?

Who allowed this!?

Maths is*
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pacovf

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2015, 06:23:00 pm »
0

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Witherweaver

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2015, 06:28:47 pm »
+1

We don't joke about grammar around here, sir.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2015, 06:29:58 pm »
+3

Video

The first time I heard "maths" was in this video, Look Around You: Maths.  Anybody who has never heard of the Look Around You Series should check it out!

I thought they were adding the -s to make it sound sillier.  I can't remember when I learned that it was just the British way.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 06:31:18 pm by eHalcyon »
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Gherald

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2015, 08:34:56 pm »
+4

Sounding sillier is just the British way. (Eh chaps?)

I have two ways to make a thread about maths and grammars more fun:



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Kirian

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Re: I did some Maths!
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2015, 01:59:16 am »
0

Sounding sillier is just the British way. (Eh chaps?)

I have two ways to make a thread about maths and grammars more fun:

<3 Klein Four... even if they really only have one song.  Also, annotated for non-math majors here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nobi/Finite_Simple_Group_of_Order_Two
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