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[werothegreat]

I think the title says it all.  I know I only just got my copy of Hinterlands, but I'm already excited for what the next expansion might bring.

What I think can be assumed:
-It will be a small expansion.
-The box won't be purple, brown, grey, green, blue, orange, or yellow-green.

What new mechanics do we think (or do we hope) the next expansion will have?

[blackb]

It's never too early to speculate on an Dominion expansion. 

[brokoli]

I'm also very impatient.

[jsh357]

I'm hoping for a Horror-themed expansion.  Cards that do things... from BEYOND THE GRAVE.

[Kirian]

I'm hoping for a Horror-themed expansion.  Cards that do things... from BEYOND THE GRAVE.

Gah, how many times do we have to say that cards that interact with the trash pile are just asking for trouble?

[werothegreat]

I'm hoping for a Horror-themed expansion.  Cards that do things... from BEYOND THE GRAVE.

Gah, how many times do we have to say that cards that interact with the trash pile are just asking for trouble?

At least one more time, it seems.

Myself, I'm hoping for more Potion cards.  Just to keep up the variety.

[chwhite]

This is more of a wish for the last big expansion (since it wouldn't make sense to put them in a small expansion), but I would love to see a couple more VP chip cards.  It appears there won't ever be another Duration card (which makes me sad), but I don't think Donald's actually foreclosed on the idea of putting the VP chips in another expansion.

I'd also like to see a targeted discard attack, if it can be done in a balanced manner. 

But most of all, I want to see something good which I haven't thought of beforehand.

[FishingVillage]

I wanna see an expansion that induces the most analysis paralysis possible.

That or something in the spirit of Unglued/Unhinged.

[guided]

I would love to see more VP chip cards (or Duration cards, though Donald has been pretty unequivocal in stating there will never be any more), but I would guess chances are slim. They'd have to put another set of VP tokens in the box, since each expansion comes with the bits that are required for that expansion - so that you're only required to own that expansion plus one of the stand-alone sets.

Let's see if I can rampantly speculate on a mechanic that might be a focus for a future expansion.... How about, goal cards? (OK, I had already guessed that wrong for Cornucopia.) Powerful, optional one-shots? (Like Mining Village.) Tokens that can be accumulated and used later for basic stuff like +Buy or +Action? Negative coinage on powerful attack cards?

[brokoli]

I'd love to see others cards about variety, like Cornuccopia.
Also, I hope to see some Action/victory cards, or Treasure/Victory... or simple Victory card like Gardens, Silk Road, Vineyard, etc...

[LastFootnote]

I'd like to see pairs of Kingdom cards that are always in the Supply together. I think a lot of interesting design space could be opened by allowing a Kingdom card to reference another specific Kingdom card. It might work better for a full-sized set, though. 13 pairs of cards is a lot more variety than 6 pairs of cards.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'd like to see pairs of Kingdom cards that are always in the Supply together. I think a lot of interesting design space could be opened by allowing a Kingdom card to reference another specific Kingdom card. It might work better for a full-sized set, though. 13 pairs of cards is a lot more variety than 6 pairs of cards.

I could see a village effect being such a kingdom card.

[^_^_^_^]

I hope a card that synergises with pearl diver chains will come out. Just because otherwise Pearl Diver chains often become incredibly useless with say, a duchy, at the bottom of your deck.

[play2draw]

If memory serves me right, the cards in this expansion were made after all the other ones (even the expansion coming out next fall). I'm hoping that at some point we get an expansion that's module-based (e.g. adding stuff that are not Kingdom Cards).

[werothegreat]

I would love to see more VP chip cards (or Duration cards, though Donald has been pretty unequivocal in stating there will never be any more), but I would guess chances are slim. They'd have to put another set of VP tokens in the box, since each expansion comes with the bits that are required for that expansion - so that you're only required to own that expansion plus one of the stand-alone sets.

Let's see if I can rampantly speculate on a mechanic that might be a focus for a future expansion.... How about, goal cards? (OK, I had already guessed that wrong for Cornucopia.) Powerful, optional one-shots? (Like Mining Village.) Tokens that can be accumulated and used later for basic stuff like +Buy or +Action? Negative coinage on powerful attack cards?

If I remember correctly, Donald X (and feel free to correct me!) doesn't like to make one-shot cards, because a lot of people hate one-shot cards, apparently.  There are still only three, being one each in each of the first three sets.

What I've found is that each expansion, besides adding a new mechanic, actually produces a paradigm shift in how the game is viewed.  Intrigue added choice, but the addition of mixed-type cards made you think of other possible pairings.  Seaside added Duration cards, but really made you think about, in a more subtle way, preparing for your next turn.  Alchemy added the Potion, obviously, but cards like Scrying Pool made you really think about Actions, and the Philosopher's Stone was the first Kingdom Treasure, making us think about having additional Treasures in the supply.  Prosperity added Victory tokens and more Treasures, as well as Colony/Platinum, but the paradigm shift was the expensive cards - I've got $8; do I get a Province, or a King's Court?  Cornucopia promoted diversity, which really is its shift.  Rather than just spamming Grand Markets, Cornucopia makes you want to have a diverse deck.  Hinterlands, with the when-gain cards, builds upon Seaside's "next turn" mentality, as well as adding yet one more thing to keep in mind when purchasing cards.  Noble Brigand is there - do I really want Gold/Silver?  Ill-Gotten Gains is there - do I really want to skip the trasher or Watchtower?

So, what paradigm shift will the next expansion bring?

[AJD]

If I remember correctly, Donald X (and feel free to correct me!) doesn't like to make one-shot cards, because a lot of people hate one-shot cards, apparently.  There are still only three, being one each in each of the first three sets.

There are three one-shots in Seaside alone. (Embargo, Island, Treasure Map.)

[werothegreat]

If I remember correctly, Donald X (and feel free to correct me!) doesn't like to make one-shot cards, because a lot of people hate one-shot cards, apparently.  There are still only three, being one each in each of the first three sets.

There are three one-shots in Seaside alone. (Embargo, Island, Treasure Map.)

True.  Forgot about the latter two.  Still no more one-shots after Seaside.

[chogg]

I would love to see more VP chip cards (or Duration cards, though Donald has been pretty unequivocal in stating there will never be any more), but I would guess chances are slim. They'd have to put another set of VP tokens in the box, since each expansion comes with the bits that are required for that expansion - so that you're only required to own that expansion plus one of the stand-alone sets.

Let's see if I can rampantly speculate on a mechanic that might be a focus for a future expansion.... How about, goal cards? (OK, I had already guessed that wrong for Cornucopia.) Powerful, optional one-shots? (Like Mining Village.) Tokens that can be accumulated and used later for basic stuff like +Buy or +Action? Negative coinage on powerful attack cards?

If I remember correctly, Donald X (and feel free to correct me!) doesn't like to make one-shot cards, because a lot of people hate one-shot cards, apparently.  There are still only three, being one each in each of the first three sets.

What I've found is that each expansion, besides adding a new mechanic, actually produces a paradigm shift in how the game is viewed.  Intrigue added choice, but the addition of mixed-type cards made you think of other possible pairings.  Seaside added Duration cards, but really made you think about, in a more subtle way, preparing for your next turn.  Alchemy added the Potion, obviously, but cards like Scrying Pool made you really think about Actions, and the Philosopher's Stone was the first Kingdom Treasure, making us think about having additional Treasures in the supply.  Prosperity added Victory tokens and more Treasures, as well as Colony/Platinum, but the paradigm shift was the expensive cards - I've got $8; do I get a Province, or a King's Court?  Cornucopia promoted diversity, which really is its shift.  Rather than just spamming Grand Markets, Cornucopia makes you want to have a diverse deck.  Hinterlands, with the when-gain cards, builds upon Seaside's "next turn" mentality, as well as adding yet one more thing to keep in mind when purchasing cards.  Noble Brigand is there - do I really want Gold/Silver?  Ill-Gotten Gains is there - do I really want to skip the trasher or Watchtower?

So, what paradigm shift will the next expansion bring?

Technically, Intrigue had Harem.  (Nitpick...)

[guided]

If I remember correctly, Donald X (and feel free to correct me!) doesn't like to make one-shot cards, because a lot of people hate one-shot cards, apparently.  There are still only three, being one each in each of the first three sets.

There are three one-shots in Seaside alone. (Embargo, Island, Treasure Map.)

True.  Forgot about the latter two.  Still no more one-shots after Seaside.

I mean, did you miss where I said "optional" and mentioned Mining Village?

[jotheonah]

The empty pile mechanic on City is interesting. I'd like to see more cards in that vein. Donald X. said Young Witch was originally going to "grow up" when a pile emptied.  I think an attack that scales like City could be interesting (or terrible).

[krawhitham]

The empty pile mechanic on City is interesting. I'd like to see more cards in that vein. Donald X. said Young Witch was originally going to "grow up" when a pile emptied.  I think an attack that scales like City could be interesting (or terrible).

How about an attack that scales down? It starts out as an awesome attack but diminishes as cards deplete or tokens are gained - like an anti pirate ship.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Threads like this are just an excuse to discuss variants in the General Dominion board, am I right?

[werothegreat]

Threads like this are just an excuse to discuss variants in the General Dominion board, am I right?

>.>  No...  <.<

[Thisisnotasmile]

... Well they are. The one for Hinterlands was just a thread where people posted their own fan-made cards or ideas for "new types" of cards and just saying "I think it will be like this...", and this thread is exactly the same. If that's not what the Variants subforum was made for I don't know what is.

Nothing against you personally, it's just the way I see it.

[werothegreat]

Well, the Variants subforum tends to include outrageous things that Donald X (pardon me if I'm stepping on your design space) would probably never include - like the Leaders expansion, or the permanent Rule Change cards.  Whereas this would be about what, realistically, could possibly be included in another expansion.  I'm also trying to engage a discussion about the paradigm shifts, but I think that got shot down by nitpicking...

[WanderingWinder]

Well, the Variants subforum tends to include outrageous things that Donald X (pardon me if I'm stepping on your design space) would probably never include - like the Leaders expansion, or the permanent Rule Change cards.  Whereas this would be about what, realistically, could possibly be included in another expansion.  I'm also trying to engage a discussion about the paradigm shifts, but I think that got shot down by nitpicking...

Well, variants includes that stuff, but it also includes normal cards. It's any cards whatsoever that aren't actually printed, plus any modified rules, etc.
Having said that, threads like this don't HAVE to degenerate into people posting their cards, variants, etc., but... they tend to do so.

[Epoch]

How about an attack that scales down? It starts out as an awesome attack but diminishes as cards deplete or tokens are gained - like an anti pirate ship.

Mountebank is kind of like this, with the "discard a Curse" clause.  Ill Gotten Gains, of course, is very much a one-shot attack (even if it's technically not an attack).

Some kind of Ultra-Cutpurse for $5?  Discard 2 Coppers?

[GendoIkari]

Some kind of Ultra-Cutpurse for $5?  Discard 2 Coppers?

Insane advantage for a 5/2 player against a 4/3 player.

[jotheonah]

Another approach to trying to predict the next expansion would be to try to predict it thematically. Where do you go beyond the Hinterlands?

[GendoIkari]

Another approach to trying to predict the next expansion would be to try to predict it thematically. Where do you go beyond the Hinterlands?

At world's end? Followed by stranger tides?

[Copernicus]

Another approach to trying to predict the next expansion would be to try to predict it thematically. Where do you go beyond the Hinterlands?

Permanence-
 * Permanent cards.  Probably unbalanced for Dominion, but basically a purchased card that is replayed every turn.
 * Rules-changers.  A "kingdom" that is only one card and changes the starting or ending rules or whatever.  Would easily work as filler for a small expansion, like the prizes.
 * Unemptying piles.  A card that, instead of being purchased and added to the deck, does something else when purchased. Could also not use a buy or give an additional buy.

Variables (cards that directly change in power based on game state)-
 * Like Peddler or Crossroads, cards that have different costs or effects depending on other things happening in the game.
 * Mini-kingdoms.  The first X cards in a stack do something, then the next X do something else.  For example, a kingdom where the first 5 cards are Village knockoffs while the next 5 are Smithy copies.
 * City knockoffs.

[Epoch]

Cards that give a disadvantage in play: an Action that gives -$2.  An Action that gives -1 Buy.  Actions that force you to discard.  Actions that make Coppers worth $0 when the Action is in play.  That kind of thing.  With, obviously, some kind of concomitant benefit that would otherwise be disproportionate to their cost.
 
(Not Actions that give Curses to you or any other -VP thing, for all the reasons that we've discussed at length).

Cards that interact heavily with the bottom of your draw pile, like maybe a Golem-like thing:  Reveal the bottom card from your Draw pile.  If the card is not an Action, discard it.  If it is an Action, put it into play.

Cards that interact with "bad" standard cards, like Copper, Estate, and Curse (a VP card that gives you 1 VP per 3 Curses in your deck.  A card that lets you discard any number of Estates for +1 Card, +$1 each.)

Not really trying to do specific balanced examples, just ideas for themes.

[GendoIkari]

Cards that give a disadvantage in play: an Action that gives -$2.  An Action that gives -1 Buy.  Actions that force you to discard.  Actions that make Coppers worth $0 when the Action is in play.  That kind of thing.  With, obviously, some kind of concomitant benefit that would otherwise be disproportionate to their cost.
 
(Not Actions that give Curses to you or any other -VP thing, for all the reasons that we've discussed at length).

Cards that interact heavily with the bottom of your draw pile, like maybe a Golem-like thing:  Reveal the bottom card from your Draw pile.  If the card is not an Action, discard it.  If it is an Action, put it into play.

Cards that interact with "bad" standard cards, like Copper, Estate, and Curse (a VP card that gives you 1 VP per 3 Curses in your deck.  A card that lets you discard any number of Estates for +1 Card, +$1 each.)

Not really trying to do specific balanced examples, just ideas for themes.

I like the idea of negative money on cards, but I don't think negative buy could ever work. They would be completely worthless on any boards without +buy (and probably overpowered on boards with +buy), and all cards are designed to work in any Kingdom.

[Epoch]

I like the idea of negative money on cards, but I don't think negative buy could ever work. They would be completely worthless on any boards without +buy (and probably overpowered on boards with +buy), and all cards are designed to work in any Kingdom.

Not necessarily.  "Gain a card costing $5 or less that is not a Victory Card.  -1 Buy."  Or whatever.

For that matter, one might argue that Chapel would not be much worse if it had -1 Buy on it.

[rod-]

Cards that interact heavily with the bottom of your draw pile

On-buy trigger on top of, say, a village, that just lets you re-arrange the bottom 5 cards of your deck, or just gives you an immediate pearl-diver effect...Would make me a very happy camper.  Or...something that when in play adds such an effect to every card you play.

[Epoch]

I've actually never played with a real-card Pearl Diver -- it seems like it might be kind of a physical pain in the neck.  If you move the card to the top of the deck, is it awkward to avoid exposing the penultimate card as well?

[LastFootnote]

I've actually never played with a real-card Pearl Diver -- it seems like it might be kind of a physical pain in the neck.  If you move the card to the top of the deck, is it awkward to avoid exposing the penultimate card as well?

No, just turn the deck face-down and move the card. Easy.

[Guy Srinivasan]

I'm voting Conquering expansion. What do you do after Hinterlands? Take over. Finally you've found new lands, that aren't yours, but could be yours, and should be yours. Mechanical theme could be caring what cards are in your opponents' decks.

[Epoch]

Hmmm.  If we considered an ongoing problem in Dominion being that fast no-combo decks (BM + Smithy or Smithy variant, Doublejack, BM + Masq) are too good, I could see a Conquest theme allowing slower play.  A card like:

Raid
Action
All opponents reveal their hands.  Gain coin equal to the cost of the highest-value Victory card that is revealed.

(Or whatevs, not trying to balance).

Or other stuff that gives you an advantage based on your opponent having high-value green cards.  So it would encourage decks which set themselves up and knock out their end conditions very quickly, and discourage, "Oh, hey, I got $8 on turn 6, I'll get a Province...  and then another on turn 10, then turn 12, then turn 15."

A catch-up mechanic.  If you wanted something less swingy than what's described above, the Trade Route deal of the card getting better as more types of Victory card are bought works something like this.

[Guy Srinivasan]

Raid
Action
All opponents reveal their hands.  Gain coin equal to the cost of the highest-value Victory card that is revealed.

lol, I deleted my sample card from my post so it sounded less varianty, but it was:

Raider - Action, Attack
Each opponent reveals cards from the top of her deck until she reveals a Victory card, putting it back on top and discarding the other revealed cards. +Coin equal to half the cost of the highest-cost Victory card revealed this way, rounded up.

[werothegreat]

Raid
Action
All opponents reveal their hands.  Gain coin equal to the cost of the highest-value Victory card that is revealed.

lol, I deleted my sample card from my post so it sounded less varianty, but it was:

Raider - Action, Attack
Each opponent reveals cards from the top of her deck until she reveals a Victory card, putting it back on top and discarding the other revealed cards. +Coin equal to half the cost of the highest-cost Victory card revealed this way, rounded up.

Leave card-making in the Variants subforum.  Like thisisnotasmile said.  This thread was intended for discussing generalities, or what paradigm shift the expansion might bring, or even what color the box will be.  I'm hoping for red.

[Guy Srinivasan]

Leave card-making in the Variants subforum.  Like thisisnotasmile said.  This thread was intended for discussing generalities, or what paradigm shift the expansion might bring, or even what color the box will be.  I'm hoping for red.

a) Sample cards are not for making new cards, they're for clarifying a theme, like saying "a bright angry color" and pointing at a stop sign.
b) I'm hoping for a dual-color box.

[Beyond Awesome]

Maybe, we will get Treasure/Curse cards or Treasure/Victory Cards. For example, Cursed Gold -- Cost: $4 -2VP $3. I know this isn't supposed to have a custom card creation. But, maybe, the theme can be curses matter. Maybe, a horror theme. Maybe, there is a card that gives you bonuses for having curses.

[dondon151]

I don't really think it's possible to speculate on the possibilities of new cards without conjecturing as to what those cards may be.

[rspeer]

If Donald X wanted there to be cards with type "Curse" that are not named "Curse", he would have left himself room to create them without creating major ambiguities. But he didn't, which tells me that such cards will never exist, because Donald X plans ahead.

[werothegreat]

Maybe, we will get Treasure/Curse cards or Treasure/Victory Cards. For example, Cursed Gold -- Cost: $4 -2VP $3. I know this isn't supposed to have a custom card creation. But, maybe, the theme can be curses matter. Maybe, a horror theme. Maybe, there is a card that gives you bonuses for having curses.

Everyone has thought of something like this, usually calling it "Blood Money."  It's a phase we all go through, before realizing how ridiculously overpowered it would actually be.

[GendoIkari]

I like the idea of negative money on cards, but I don't think negative buy could ever work. They would be completely worthless on any boards without +buy (and probably overpowered on boards with +buy), and all cards are designed to work in any Kingdom.

Not necessarily.  "Gain a card costing $5 or less that is not a Victory Card.  -1 Buy."  Or whatever.

For that matter, one might argue that Chapel would not be much worse if it had -1 Buy on it.

You're right. Also, Tactician would be worse on some boards, but just as good a lot of the time.

[mrdirt73]

Leave card-making in the Variants subforum.  Like thisisnotasmile said.  This thread was intended for discussing generalities, or what paradigm shift the expansion might bring, or even what color the box will be.  I'm hoping for red.

If "conquer" is the theme, then the box should absolutely be red.

[Piemaster]

Maybe, we will get Treasure/Curse cards or Treasure/Victory Cards. For example, Cursed Gold -- Cost: $4 -2VP $3. I know this isn't supposed to have a custom card creation. But, maybe, the theme can be curses matter. Maybe, a horror theme. Maybe, there is a card that gives you bonuses for having curses.

Everyone has thought of something like this, usually calling it "Blood Money."  It's a phase we all go through, before realizing how ridiculously overpowered it would actually be.

While giving bonuses for having curses might be difficult to balance, I think that an expansion loosely themed on curses (or just 'magic' in general) could be good as the mechanic is a bit one-dimensional and underutilised at the moment.  The expansion could include:

-  More ways to give curses
-  More ways to remove curses (important for balance)
-  Ways to punish people that have curses in their deck/hand
-  A new type of curse (hex?) that is more powerful, but also more difficult to give out and less spammable.
-  Ways to utilise curses n your deck to some end (as stated above, difficult to balance, it would have to be more about mitigating the negative consequences than giving 'bonuses' as such).

[Thisisnotasmile]

-  More ways to give curses

Every expansion to date has this

-  More ways to remove curses (important for balance)

i.e. More trashing. Every expansion to date has this

-  Ways to punish people that have curses in their deck/hand

Many people already hate the Cursing attacks because of how damaging there are. You really want to make them MORE painful?

-  A new type of curse (hex?) that is more powerful, but also more difficult to give out and less spammable.

Again, -1VP and deck/hand clogging is already damaging enough.

-  Ways to utilise curses n your deck to some end (as stated above, difficult to balance, it would have to be more about mitigating the negative consequences than giving 'bonuses' as such).

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

An expansion like this would bring nothing new to the game apart from putting many people off because of the increased aggression.

[Beyond Awesome]

-  More ways to give curses

Every expansion to date has this

-  More ways to remove curses (important for balance)

i.e. More trashing. Every expansion to date has this

-  Ways to punish people that have curses in their deck/hand

Many people already hate the Cursing attacks because of how damaging there are. You really want to make them MORE painful?

-  A new type of curse (hex?) that is more powerful, but also more difficult to give out and less spammable.

Again, -1VP and deck/hand clogging is already damaging enough.

-  Ways to utilise curses n your deck to some end (as stated above, difficult to balance, it would have to be more about mitigating the negative consequences than giving 'bonuses' as such).

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

An expansion like this would bring nothing new to the game apart from putting many people off because of the increased aggression.

Kind of like Alchemy and Possesion, or just Alchemy in general. Btw, I love Alchemy, but I think Donald X. tried too hard to make the cards in that set good. Not that Possession is too good, but other cards like Apprentice, Familiar, Golem, etc. can be quite powerful. Especially, Apprentice.

[Davio]

Mechanics

I have always been in favour of fiddling with the Curses, but I understand such a thing is very hard to balance.
I've talked about Curse / X dualtype cards in the past and about a card that both gives Curses and does something with them.

The trash has been considered a no go area, but I think it could be used for some cards.


Theme

Ok, so we started with our little kingdom, used some magic with Alchemy, had some political issues with Intrigue, roamed the seas with Seaside, increased our wealth with Prosperity, celebrated our diversity with Cornucopia and ventured to the borders and beyond with Hinterlands.

What's left?

I like either a clear "light" or "dark" theme for the next expansion. For light, something like a Carnival (too bad Jester's already gone) or some other festival (also gone) with cards like "Brewery", "Square" and "Minstrel". For dark, it could be about revolt, disease and poorness with cards like "Beggar", "Pied Piper", "Plague" and "Quack".

[def]

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

You can distinguish between non-Curses and Curses, though, for example:
"Trash a card. Gain a Silver in hand. If the trashed card was a Curse, gain a Gold in hand instead."

Cards like that would make it easier for cursed players to come back, a thing I'd like to see.

[Graystripe77]

I really don't get why people are so against curse dual type cards. Sure they're not going to be easy to balance, but I think it would add even more flavor to an already amazing game. That's it, I'm making a Curse dual type card for my fan expansion.

[werothegreat]

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

You can distinguish between non-Curses and Curses, though, for example:
"Trash a card. Gain a Silver in hand. If the trashed card was a Curse, gain a Gold in hand instead."

Cards like that would make it easier for cursed players to come back, a thing I'd like to see.

Better wording: "Trash a card from your hand.  If it was a Curse, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.  Otherwise, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand."

[barsooma]

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

You can distinguish between non-Curses and Curses, though, for example:
"Trash a card. Gain a Silver in hand. If the trashed card was a Curse, gain a Gold in hand instead."

Cards like that would make it easier for cursed players to come back, a thing I'd like to see.

Better wording: "Trash a card from your hand.  If it was a Curse, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.  Otherwise, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand."

How is this supposed to work? This card would be better than trade route, possibly better than JOAT. So the cost has got to be $4 at least, probably more, making it unlikely as a comeback card. Basically it's just another deterrent to cursing attacks.

[def]

We don't need to discuss how this special card can work and how it should be worded, it was only posted to show the possible game mechanic.
Another option are cards with "this costs 1$ less to buy for each Curse you reveal".
So, there are plenty of options to make cards that are better/easier to get/... the more Curses you have.

[werothegreat]

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

You can distinguish between non-Curses and Curses, though, for example:
"Trash a card. Gain a Silver in hand. If the trashed card was a Curse, gain a Gold in hand instead."

Cards like that would make it easier for cursed players to come back, a thing I'd like to see.

Better wording: "Trash a card from your hand.  If it was a Curse, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.  Otherwise, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand."

How is this supposed to work? This card would be better than trade route, possibly better than JOAT. So the cost has got to be $4 at least, probably more, making it unlikely as a comeback card. Basically it's just another deterrent to cursing attacks.

It's a sort of combination of Trade Route and Explorer.

I think what could actually work would be a card that requires you take a Curse or two with it, like Cache makes you take Coppers.  It would be a lower cost, but since these are actual Curses you're getting that can clog your deck, and not "Blood Money," you'd actually think twice before getting it.

[GendoIkari]

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

You can distinguish between non-Curses and Curses, though, for example:
"Trash a card. Gain a Silver in hand. If the trashed card was a Curse, gain a Gold in hand instead."

Cards like that would make it easier for cursed players to come back, a thing I'd like to see.

I think this card + curse would make a decent opening!

[Piemaster]

This is just trash/discard-for-benefit and it already exists in many forms.

You can distinguish between non-Curses and Curses, though, for example:
"Trash a card. Gain a Silver in hand. If the trashed card was a Curse, gain a Gold in hand instead."

Cards like that would make it easier for cursed players to come back, a thing I'd like to see.

If that was the theme of the expansion you could even have more Brute Force affecting curses, it doesn't just have to be vanilla trashing cards.

[Davio]

I really don't get why people are so against curse dual type cards. Sure they're not going to be easy to balance, but I think it would add even more flavor to an already amazing game. That's it, I'm making a Curse dual type card for my fan expansion.

We have to keep in mind that we're all very bad at judging long term card effects on the game.
It often comes in waves and distills over time: From "Chapel is awful!" to "Chapel is awesome!" and finally "Chapel is good, but not always".

We have to trust Donald and his solid team of playtesters and even they can't play a gazillion games so there will always be cards that are inherently better than others, but that's OK. If a card is "broken", it will stilly only appear in under 1% of all games, if randomly chosen.

If you're making a Curse dual type, you have to keep in mind that without Cursers, it may never get chosen and with Cursers, it will often get chosen. And you're not helping the players who don't want to Curse, because instead of 10 Curses, they now will get 20. You're making the actual Curse-pile twice as deep (in 2p) and this can have adverse effects and make the game less enjoyable overall.

You could keep it simple with an Action - Curse that gives +1 card or something.

[Graystripe77]

Well actually, I was thinking of a Curse that couldn't be gained from cursing cards, or something that replaces the curse pile. So it would be the same # of curses, just a different playstyle.

[Davio]

Well actually, I was thinking of a Curse that couldn't be gained from cursing cards, or something that replaces the curse pile. So it would be the same # of curses, just a different playstyle.

Ah I see.

Since the official expansions have played with setup rules before (Young Witch, Black Market, Trade Route), I don't see why a dualtype Curse couldn't do such a thing.

Something like (off the top of my head)
Cursed Gold - $6
Curse - Treasure
-2 VP

If this is the first time you played a Cursed Gold this turn, this is worth 4 coins, otherwise it's worth 1 coin.
------------------
Setup: If this card is included in the game, it replaces the normal Curses.

[Piemaster]

What about a curse that is applied in the same way as a regular curse, but actually improves your opponent's deck (or is at least neutral), but comes with a stiff VP penalty at the end?

[GendoIkari]

What about a curse that is applied in the same way as a regular curse, but actually improves your opponent's deck (or is at least neutral), but comes with a stiff VP penalty at the end?

The problem with any card that gives good benefit for the cost of VP at the end is that if there are any trashers on the board, it is going to be generally overpowered, as you have plenty of time to trash it. And even if there aren't trashers on the board, the VP penalty would have to be pretty stiff to make it worse than a card that just wastes space in your hand.

[jotheonah]

Jester is already a "comeback card" of sorts - the more green your opponent has, the more likely it is to deal them a curse, slowing down their ending and giving you a chance to catch up.

[barsooma]

What about a curse that is applied in the same way as a regular curse, but actually improves your opponent's deck (or is at least neutral), but comes with a stiff VP penalty at the end?

The problem with any card that gives good benefit for the cost of VP at the end is that if there are any trashers on the board, it is going to be generally overpowered, as you have plenty of time to trash it. And even if there aren't trashers on the board, the VP penalty would have to be pretty stiff to make it worse than a card that just wastes space in your hand.

Easy fix: -1VP chips

[guided]

The only remotely balanced solution I've seen for cards that want to be overpowered for their cost is to give negative VP chips each time the card is played. I think there's some good design space available there, actually.

[Graystripe77]

Isn't there an expansion where the -vp chips are called sins? If so, would I be able to use the same name for simplicity sake?

[biopower]

Isn't there an expansion where the -vp chips are called sins? If so, would I be able to use the same name for simplicity sake?

Yes, a quick google reveals this, although some of the images for the cards seem to be in German.

[jotheonah]

Food for thought:

There are only two sets after this one, and one of them is a latecomer with its own special thing going on.

Donald X in the secret history of Hinterlands. what do we think that means???

[werothegreat]

Food for thought:

There are only two sets after this one, and one of them is a latecomer with its own special thing going on.

Donald X in the secret history of Hinterlands. what do we think that means???

Yet another resource, a la Potion?  A different basic set of card, alongside Action, Treasure, Victory and Curse?  More tokens?  More mats?  Little figurines to move around on a giant inflatable chessboard?

[play2draw]

It's the dice expansion. I can feel it this time.

Or it could be the opposite of Seaside. Seaside was cards that affected your future turns... maybe it's a time-travel based expansion where you play cards that affect your previous turns? 

[AJD]

I really don't get why people are so against curse dual type cards.

In part, I think it's because "Curse" is both a card type and the card name, and so if there were alternate cards of the "Curse" type, a lot of instructions ("gain a Curse") would become annoyingly ambiguous.

[GendoIkari]

One thing that I would sort of like to see, while at the same time think it's probably a bad idea... alternate win conditions. Some of my favorite cards in Magic are the ones that let you win the game without killing your opponent. "At the start of your turn, if such and such conditions are met, you win the game." In Dominion, this of course poses the problem of what can your opponents do to stop you? There is no enchantment destruction! So I don't think it could ever work, but it would be fun to see.

[Copernicus]

One thing that I would sort of like to see, while at the same time think it's probably a bad idea... alternate win conditions. Some of my favorite cards in Magic are the ones that let you win the game without killing your opponent. "At the start of your turn, if such and such conditions are met, you win the game." In Dominion, this of course poses the problem of what can your opponents do to stop you? There is no enchantment destruction! So I don't think it could ever work, but it would be fun to see.

Goons and variable-point Victory cards both offer alternate win conditions.

------

The main problem with any drawback-themed set is that standard game players hate drawbacks.  For the obvious Dominion example, look at how difficult it is to get people to start using Chapel.

It's certainly interesting territory to explore with a lot of options, but I'd expect a sub-theme along the lines of Embassy or Council Room and not a full-blown set.

[tlloyd]

Mechanics

I have always been in favour of fiddling with the Curses, but I understand such a thing is very hard to balance.
I've talked about Curse / X dualtype cards in the past and about a card that both gives Curses and does something with them.

The trash has been considered a no go area, but I think it could be used for some cards.

I know we're trying to avoid devolving into a fan-card discussion, but I am still a big fan of

Witchdoctor
Action-Attack ($6)
"+2 Cards. Choose one: trash (any/up to #) of Curses from your hand, gaining 1 VP per curse trashed, OR each other player gains a Curse and loses 1 VP."

[GendoIkari]

One thing that I would sort of like to see, while at the same time think it's probably a bad idea... alternate win conditions. Some of my favorite cards in Magic are the ones that let you win the game without killing your opponent. "At the start of your turn, if such and such conditions are met, you win the game." In Dominion, this of course poses the problem of what can your opponents do to stop you? There is no enchantment destruction! So I don't think it could ever work, but it would be fun to see.

Goons and variable-point Victory cards both offer alternate win conditions.

------

The main problem with any drawback-themed set is that standard game players hate drawbacks.  For the obvious Dominion example, look at how difficult it is to get people to start using Chapel.

It's certainly interesting territory to explore with a lot of options, but I'd expect a sub-theme along the lines of Embassy or Council Room and not a full-blown set.

I was going to mention other VP cards and VP chips in my post; I guess I forgot. I don't think of those as alternate win conditions, the win condition is still "you won because you had more VP than your opponent." In Magic, the normal win condition is "you win if your opponent has no life." Alternate win conditions allow you to win while your opponent still has life. In Dominion, the win condition is "you win if you have more VP than your opponent (when the game ends)."

Granted, early on in Dominion, it often felt like the win condition was "the player with the most Provinces wins," but that was never the stated rules for winning.

[werothegreat]

Just as a thought, apparently Adventurer was taken from this next expansion.  What mechanic can we deduce from this applies to the set as a whole?

[Donald X.]

Just as a thought, apparently Adventurer was taken from this next expansion.

It wasn't.

There were five 20-card expansions when RGG took the game. At one point before Dominion came out I rearranged the cards I had (including ones not in expansions) into eight 16-card expansions. At that point Adventure was in the 7th expansion. This was just an experiment and of course the expansions ended up being ~25 cards, and then it turned out there would be ~13 card expansions too. With the switch to 25, before the small expansions became a thing, I had 6 expansions. The small 7th expansion did not have a strong enough theme to hold onto its cards, and other expansions sucked them up.

[Epoch]

In part, I think it's because "Curse" is both a card type and the card name, and so if there were alternate cards of the "Curse" type, a lot of instructions ("gain a Curse") would become annoyingly ambiguous.

Though that's not really a big problem.  Create a card that's, like, some other negative-vp-card-that's-not-called-Curse.  Um.  Hex.  Curses still refer to Curses, and you can have a card that gives out Hexes, or one that trashes Curses and Hexes, or whatever.

But there are other, bigger problems with cards that are worth negative VP but have some conciliatory benefit with them.

[ecq]

Beyond the Hinterlands... the Underworld?  Interaction with the trash pile would probably be too crazy (though maybe an expensive way to save cards destined for the trash wouldn't be), but interaction with the discard pile could be interesting.

Counting House seems like the tip of the iceberg.  For instance, there could be an attack where each player reveals his discard pile and shuffles revealed victory cards (curses, coppers, whatever) into his deck.

Oddly and maybe interestingly, Chancellor could become extremely powerful with such an expansion.

[Davio]

It would be funny if a card that is currently almost never bought would become great with the new expansion.

1. Chancellor: There could be another card (like Stash) that triggers on reshuffles, but is way more powerful than a Silver.
2. Counting House: So there's the occasional Mountebank and IGG game (perhaps Cache as well), but how about a card that lets you gain 10 Coppers at once? This would radically spice up Gardens games and other rush strategies.
3. Navigator: This has probably become already a bit better due to Tunnel, but there have to be more uses for it. I like to buy it if I know I can always play it.
4. Stash; I guess no one likes the hassle, but as well as another Stash, there could be another Chancellor. :p
5. Harvest: I feel this is often a Gold that you have to spend an Action on. I wonder if this card would have been overpowered if it would give $5 for 4 different cards or if it would have been better. There could be a Reaction card to an opponent revealing something from the top of his deck or something, but it would possibly needlessly lengthen player turns.

[brokoli]

I wonder if there will be a single-type victory card, like Gardens in the base set, Duke in Intrigue, Vineyard in Alchemy, Fairgrounds in Cornuccopia and Silk Road in Hinterlands.

I think about :

- A card which depend on the treasures
- A card which depend on the estates
- The opposite of the gardens (X VP - Y for every Z cards in your deck)
- The opposite of the fairgrounds (X VP for every Y same named cards in your deck)
- The opposite of silk road (X VP - Y for every Z victory cards in your deck)
- A card which depend on the total cost of the cards in your deck (X VP for every Y$ in your deck).

These ideas are a little crazy, and I'm sure the majority of these cards doesn't work. But... it's fun to imagine 

[Epoch]

A VP card that depends on Treasures is probably a bad idea.  Big Money's attractiveness is a problem for Dominion, not something that needs encouragement.  (A VP card that depends on Coppers might be interesting, though).

You could have a VP card that depends on itself.  With, say, an "island" of bad costing:

Sample VP Card
$4 Victory
If you have 1 of these cards, it is worth 3 VP
If you have 2 of these cards, it is worth -1 VP
If you have 3 of these cards, it is worth 0 VP
If you have 4 of these cards, it is worth 2 VP
If you have 5 of these cards, it is worth 3 VP
If you have 6+ of these cards, it is worth 5 VP

Or whatever, to make it work.  Maybe put another card in the set that can force people to take them or trash them, and let people sit in the agony of analysis paralysis.

[play2draw]

Since you're talking about a VP card that depends on itself, I'd like to see:

CARD
$2 Victory
When you gain this card, place a VP token on this pile.
For each VP token on this pile, the cost of this card increases by 1.
At the end of the game, this card is worth victory points equal to the number of VP tokens on this pile.

I enjoy cards like City and Trade Route, and would love a set that focuses on cards that meaningfully enhance player interaction.

[TheMathProf]

I'd be more impressed with that VP card that depended on itself if the cost also went up as time went on (i.e. this card costs $2 + $1 for every VP token on the pile).

[david707]

Yes

[play2draw]

I'd be more impressed with that VP card that depended on itself if the cost also went up as time went on (i.e. this card costs $2 + $1 for every VP token on the pile).

Yeah, that's what I intended, but maybe I didn't write it correctly. Looking at Peddler it should have said "this costs" instead of "this card costs". Also an asterisk next to the $2 would have helped.

Also, I'm aware this ain't the variants forum, so from hereon I shall refrain from such discussion

[TheMathProf]

^ You actually even said that... I just somehow missed it. 

[Piemaster]

Actually there is a lot of scope for cards which synergise or de-synergise with themselves, even though we have seen some in earlier expansions (Fool's Gold, Crossroad, Treasure Map etc).  Could even be a theme for an expansion in itself.

[werothegreat]

Apparently the next expansion is going to be called Dark Ages. Thoughts?

[CaptainNevada]

Perhaps the opposite of Prosperity.  There, times were good.  Dark Ages suggests times are bad.  The focus would be on cards that are cheap and rewards you for having cheap cards and will help you get cheap cards.  It would be a shift like the diversity theme of Cornucopia.  It would need some enabler cards (consider a menagerie-like card that worked on cards costing $3 or $4 or less; e.g. Census $3 - +1 Action. Reveal Your Hand.  If there are no cards costing $4 or more, +3 cards;  Otherwise, +1 card).  It could fill in a gap with a $1 card (Peasant - +1 card) which would cause rethinking certain trashers (remake for example, though thematically the set should include the exact opposite of it like Demolish $4 - Do this twice; trash a card.  Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than the trashed card).  It would need a victory card that rewarded the theme as well (Badlands $?, Worth + 1 VP per X cards in your deck costing $X or less).

Most sets include a new kind of reaction card, victory card, treasure, and trashing card. 

Apparently the next expansion is going to be called Dark Ages. Thoughts?

[werothegreat]

There could also be an entirely new card type - no idea what it would be, though.  I'm hoping for a red background.