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Author Topic: Neat and potentially useful card interactions  (Read 425266 times)

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leesal

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1750 on: August 27, 2022, 02:57:24 am »
+2

I had a really interesting one with cathedral, lurker and cavalry. Trash the cavalry with cathedral and the use lurker to regain with the +2 cards +1 buy.

Also lackeys on villageless boards, and the interaction with swap, or way-of-the-horse!
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1751 on: August 28, 2022, 10:28:19 am »
+1

I had a really interesting one with cathedral, lurker and cavalry. Trash the cavalry with cathedral and the use lurker to regain with the +2 cards +1 buy.

Also lackeys on villageless boards, and the interaction with swap, or way-of-the-horse!

Lurker and Cavalry work great together regardless. The draw allows you to convert a singleton lurker into a horse and a buy until the Cavalry pie runs down; with any village support it is a decent way to bootstrap an engine. Any other sort of trashing can then allow you to gain from the trash via Lurker and back out, generally netting you +2 cards plus whatever benefit (if any) you get from trashing. Lurker/Calvary/Junk dealer, for instance converts to two Labs and a Market.

In general, on-gain and on-trash effects make anything that gains or trashes much more powerful. The ability to create an infinite loop to get those on- abilities is naturally quite powerful. For instance, Villa/Collections gets crazy powerful with Way of the Butterfly/Horse or for a more complex example Groundskeeper/Swap/Inheritance also racks up near infinite VP.

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1752 on: September 01, 2022, 12:57:01 am »
0

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Eta same with Diplomat.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 12:10:53 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1753 on: September 01, 2022, 02:45:41 pm »
+4

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Isn't that just the entire point of the Horse Traders reaction? To defend against handsize attacks? Or is there something about Archer I'm missing?
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Imrahil3

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1754 on: September 01, 2022, 08:24:01 pm »
+3

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Isn't that just the entire point of the Horse Traders reaction? To defend against handsize attacks? Or is there something about Archer I'm missing?

I think he just means Horse Traders is specifically well-suited to combatting Archer

Contrast with Militia, where you still end up discarding a card. Horse Traders returns and draws you a card, so you have the opportunity to discard a bad card and draw a good one, but you might have already had all your good cards in hand and then draw a Copper. Against Archer, Horse Traders negates the attack entirely and draws you a card on your turn, putting you in strictly a better position than you would have been without Archer being played.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1755 on: September 01, 2022, 09:54:14 pm »
+2

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Isn't that just the entire point of the Horse Traders reaction? To defend against handsize attacks? Or is there something about Archer I'm missing?

I think he just means Horse Traders is specifically well-suited to combatting Archer

Contrast with Militia, where you still end up discarding a card. Horse Traders returns and draws you a card, so you have the opportunity to discard a bad card and draw a good one, but you might have already had all your good cards in hand and then draw a Copper. Against Archer, Horse Traders negates the attack entirely and draws you a card on your turn, putting you in strictly a better position than you would have been without Archer being played.

That part also holds true for Soldier, Urchin, and Clerk. It is even better with Archer than those, though, as Archer isn't just a discard-one - discard one isn't usually too bad because you can typically discard something of low value (in a game with no trashing, very likely to be a Copper or Estate, but even in a game with strong trashing, there'll be a least-good card that you can choose)
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1756 on: September 02, 2022, 12:16:35 pm »
0

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Isn't that just the entire point of the Horse Traders reaction? To defend against handsize attacks? Or is there something about Archer I'm missing?
kinda.  Complete attack nullification only applies to handsize attacks that say "players with 5 cards in hand" as some still make you discard to 3 anyway (though you do get the horse trader back) and just pointing out that Archer is one of those cuz it's new.  Same thing would apply to Pillage for example.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1757 on: September 02, 2022, 12:17:42 pm »
0

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Isn't that just the entire point of the Horse Traders reaction? To defend against handsize attacks? Or is there something about Archer I'm missing?

I think he just means Horse Traders is specifically well-suited to combatting Archer

Contrast with Militia, where you still end up discarding a card. Horse Traders returns and draws you a card, so you have the opportunity to discard a bad card and draw a good one, but you might have already had all your good cards in hand and then draw a Copper. Against Archer, Horse Traders negates the attack entirely and draws you a card on your turn, putting you in strictly a better position than you would have been without Archer being played.

a much more eloquent explanation.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1758 on: September 02, 2022, 12:19:28 pm »
+1

Not sure if defensive combos count here, but Horse traders is a great counter to archer.  The reaction makes you have 4 cards in hand ergo it nullifies the Archer attack.  Also is helpful against the warrior, but really shines vs the annoying AF archer.

Isn't that just the entire point of the Horse Traders reaction? To defend against handsize attacks? Or is there something about Archer I'm missing?

I think he just means Horse Traders is specifically well-suited to combatting Archer

Contrast with Militia, where you still end up discarding a card. Horse Traders returns and draws you a card, so you have the opportunity to discard a bad card and draw a good one, but you might have already had all your good cards in hand and then draw a Copper. Against Archer, Horse Traders negates the attack entirely and draws you a card on your turn, putting you in strictly a better position than you would have been without Archer being played.

That part also holds true for Soldier, Urchin, and Clerk. It is even better with Archer than those, though, as Archer isn't just a discard-one - discard one isn't usually too bad because you can typically discard something of low value (in a game with no trashing, very likely to be a Copper or Estate, but even in a game with strong trashing, there'll be a least-good card that you can choose)

yeah it's not even like discarding a treasure or card over 2 cost.  Selective pruning can really take a mega turn and just ground it to a halt based on taking out one card.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1759 on: September 03, 2022, 01:32:45 pm »
0

Usually not a huge horse traders fan unless the deck really calls for it as it's kind of a handsize attack on yourself often. However, I just played in a deck with Way of the Turtle and horse traders just crushes in it, especially if you have any discard for benefits... in my case, it was Tunnel and that combo, it's just sick.  Skip the horse traders play, as often the 3 coins are usually gained by tossing 1 or 2 coins away anyway.  Then next turn you get to discard from a full 5 card hand (or more if you set it up to be bigger w/ your deck) and you can just keep turtling it until you get the right hand to play it... either one where you need the coins/buy/or discard effect to really supercharge a hand.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1760 on: September 06, 2022, 08:41:02 pm »
0

This one is really OP.  But New Donate and Trail is off the chain.  Because under the new donate you trash all the cards at the start of your turn, so load up on trails and buy a bunch of engine parts, then trash all the trails for a pre-turn Lab a piece.  Just bonkers, especially on boards that lack +draw and actions. Then use one of the buys to buy donate at the end of your turn to rinse and repeat.  Even better if there are cursers, looters or TFB.  If you could play a Priest as way of the turtle or royal galley or something this could be super bonkers.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 11:24:18 am by Honkeyfresh »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1761 on: September 07, 2022, 09:59:28 am »
+1

This one is really OP.  But New Donate and Trail is off the chain.  Because under the new donate you trash all the cards at the start of your turn, so load up on trails and buy a bunch of engine parts, then trash all the trails for a pre-turn Lab a piece.  Just bonkers, especially on boards that lack +draw and actions. Then use one of the buys to buy donate at the end of your turn to rinse and repeat.

Wouldn't the draw happen during the middle of Donate, so you'd have an empty deck at that point?
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1762 on: September 07, 2022, 11:19:19 am »
0

This one is really OP.  But New Donate and Trail is off the chain.  Because under the new donate you trash all the cards at the start of your turn, so load up on trails and buy a bunch of engine parts, then trash all the trails for a pre-turn Lab a piece.  Just bonkers, especially on boards that lack +draw and actions. Then use one of the buys to buy donate at the end of your turn to rinse and repeat.

Wouldn't the draw happen during the middle of Donate, so you'd have an empty deck at that point?

nope.  I thought it would play as you did, but I saw it in practice. After a careful parsing of the instructions, it makes sense. First, put cards in your hand.  Trash them resulting in the trails being played and thus drawing you cards and action, then shuffle "the rest" in your deck which I guess refers to all the cards not already in your hand. Since it never tells you to discard your deck again, and just says Draw 5 cards those go in addition to the ones you already have, and you keep all + actions, and possibly coins/buys, etc depending on the deck.

I think the place this could be cleaned up is just to define "the rest" as all the cards in your deck, not just the ones still in your discard pile.  Or just rephrase "the rest" as all cards, as this combo is way op.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 11:21:20 am by Honkeyfresh »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1763 on: September 07, 2022, 11:23:51 am »
0

But you don't have anything to draw at that point. All of your cards are in your hand, so you trash/play a Trail and draw 0 cards from your empty deck/discard. You'll still get the extra action of course.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1764 on: September 07, 2022, 11:26:50 am »
0

But you don't have anything to draw at that point. All of your cards are in your hand, so you trash/play a Trail and draw 0 cards from your empty deck/discard. You'll still get the extra action of course.

Pretty sure it went the other way but as much as I smoke it's possible that the massive draw just came from actions, but to the best of my recollection it did give cards too.  I am sure someone can simulate this vs a bot to double-check it though.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1765 on: September 07, 2022, 11:30:47 am »
0

nope.  I thought it would play as you did, but I saw it in practice. After a careful parsing of the instructions, it makes sense. First, put cards in your hand.  Trash them resulting in the trails being played and thus drawing you cards and action, then shuffle "the rest" in your deck which I guess refers to all the cards not already in your hand. Since it never tells you to discard your deck again, and just says Draw 5 cards those go in addition to the ones you already have, and you keep all + actions, and possibly coins/buys, etc depending on the deck.

That's not how it works. This is how it works:

1. First, put all the cards in your hand.
2. Trash them resulting in the Trails being played, and thus drawing nothing because you already have all the cards in your hand, because you literally just put them all there a second ago in step 1.
3. Then you shuffle "the rest" in your deck, which refers to the cards in your hand that you didn't trash. If it did refer to all the cards not already in your hand, it would refer to no cards because every card is already in your hand, and Donate would just always leave you with your entire deck in hand on its own regardless of Trail.

You do indeed keep the +action you get from Trail, but that's just the same interaction it has with every trasher in the game, as it says right on the card itself.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1766 on: September 07, 2022, 12:29:31 pm »
0

Ok that makes better sense.  Still pretty massive in a game where actions are lacking and good terminal draw etc. Must've just been the massive onslaught from the 6 action turns that made it seem so big.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 12:35:53 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1767 on: October 03, 2022, 07:59:56 pm »
+6

Oh hey here's a Trail interaction that is actually specific to the card-shaped thing it's interacting with, and also confusing enough that it kind of needs a short guide.

Trail + Way of the Mole

The normal version:
Step 1: have Trail and any other action in your hand
Step 2: play the other action as Way of the Mole, discarding Trail alongside the rest of your hand
Step 3: you now have 0 cards in hand, use Trail's reaction to play it as Way of the Mole to draw 3 cards
Step 4: you now draw 3 cards from the original Way of the Mole, getting you to 6 cards (and one more action than you started with)

The version on steroids:
Step 1: have at least two Trails and any other action in your hand
Step 2: play the other action as Way of the Mole, discarding two Trails alongside the rest of your hand
Step 3: you now have 0 cards in hand, use Trail's reaction to play it as Way of the Mole to draw 3 cards, while the other Trail reaction is still unresolved
Step 4: you get lucky and one of the 3 cards you drew is another Trail
Step 5: you resolve the other Trail reaction to play it as Way of the Mole to discard your hand again and react with the Trail you were lucky enough to draw
Step 6: you now have 0 cards in hand, use Trail's reaction to play it as Way of the Mole to draw 3 cards
Step 7: you now draw 3 cards from the Way of the Mole from step 5
Step 8: you now draw 3 cards from the original Way of the Mole, getting you to 9 cards (and three more actions than you started with)

Since steps 4-6 of the steroid version are in fact equivalent to steps 1-3 of the normal version (with an extra unresolved +3 cards at the end), and you can extend the normal version into the steroids version by having an extra Trail in your hand and drawing an extra Trail with the topmost +3 cards after discarding, every two extra Trails you have in your deck can increase the maximum handsize you can get this way by 3, as long as your draws are good enough. Conveniently it also doesn't matter which specific hands the extra Trails are in, as long as they're in some of them before the chain ends, and the more Trails you have, the more likely you are to keep drawing more where it's required.

So basically with Trail and Way of the Mole in the kingdom, it is possible to build a deck-drawing engine without any other draw or +actions.
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Gherald

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1768 on: October 04, 2022, 10:28:48 am »
+3

Applies equally to Village Green + Way of the Mole (just that people normally use VG as a normal village component)
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1769 on: October 04, 2022, 11:08:59 am »
0

Applies equally to Village Green + Way of the Mole (just that people normally use VG as a normal village component)

It works with Weaver too, although it's arguably not as good since it doesn't draw cards when played without the Mole.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1770 on: October 05, 2022, 03:37:27 pm »
0

Applies equally to Village Green + Way of the Mole (just that people normally use VG as a normal village component)

It works with Weaver too, although it's arguably not as good since it doesn't draw cards when played without the Mole.

weaver also reacts to scavenger, which I found weird because I am pretty sure that other discard cards like tunnel don't react to Scavenger.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1771 on: October 06, 2022, 02:03:42 pm »
+2

weaver also reacts to scavenger, which I found weird because I am pretty sure that other discard cards like tunnel don't react to Scavenger.

It shouldn't... "put your deck into your discard pile" is not "discarding".
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1772 on: October 06, 2022, 02:53:13 pm »
+1

weaver also reacts to scavenger, which I found weird because I am pretty sure that other discard cards like tunnel don't react to Scavenger.

It shouldn't... "put your deck into your discard pile" is not "discarding".

Honk, does Awaclus need to go stalk your Dominion Online history again?
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1773 on: October 17, 2022, 09:04:26 am »
+2

In the spirit of Trail combos, I propose

Trail + Way of the Rat

It's not usually great to play a Trail when you gain it in the buy phase. With WotR, you can turn any excess Treasure into extra Trails.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1774 on: October 25, 2022, 05:02:29 am »
+7

Farmland + Wish

The new version of Farmland lets you Wish for a Province! Just gain Farmland and use its on-gain effect on itself.
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