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Author Topic: Neat and potentially useful card interactions  (Read 191894 times)

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JThorne

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1175 on: December 27, 2017, 06:14:31 pm »
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This is how you should always be thinking about University though, it isn't something unique to Highway that would warrant the "potentially harmful" badge.

Well, what's unique about University's relationship to Highway is that cost reduction is only useful for greening if you have plus buys or gainers. (And Bridge/Troll contain +buys!) If there's no +buy, Highway could still be worth it even with a gainer as boring as Workshop if you can play four Highways and then gain a Province/buy a Province. The fact that University ONLY gains actions does, specifically, nombo with Highway for that very reason.

On the flip side, Highway just by itself is often skippable if there's no +buys or gainers, because then you're paying $5 for a good Poacher.

In summary, University has some potential downsides that you have to factor in, and Highway has some potential downsides that you have to factor in, and they do absolutely nothing to mitigate each other's downsides!
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Dingan

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1176 on: December 27, 2017, 07:06:39 pm »
+4

Banquet - Monastery

Pay 3 Coppers for a 5er, trash those 3 Coppers (for a net of -1 Copper). Particularly useful in the early game when you have a lot of Coppers and want 5's.

EDIT: Ah, whoops.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 07:12:32 pm by Dingan »
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1177 on: December 27, 2017, 07:43:48 pm »
0

Well, what's unique about University's relationship to Highway is that cost reduction is only useful for greening if you have plus buys or gainers.

Without + buy or gainers Highway is still effectively giving +$1 - it's basically a Peddler, which certainly will help you hit $8 more easily. This isn't reason enough to go for University on it's own, but it's certainly not a nombo and might be enough to tip you in the direction of University if it's a close call. I doubt you would say that Treasury for example is a nombo with University and it's the same with Highway. Remember that I never said that Highway was an amazing combo with University (apart from with certain $6+ actions).

If there's no +buy, Highway could still be worth it even with a gainer as boring as Workshop if you can play four Highways and then gain a Province/buy a Province. The fact that University ONLY gains actions does, specifically, nombo with Highway for that very reason.

Maybe we have a different definition of nombo? Highway isn't making Uni any worse for this reason or vice versa. Probably shouldn't go down that rabbit hole though.

On the flip side, Highway just by itself is often skippable if there's no +buys or gainers, because then you're paying $5 for a good Poacher.

This is true. But University is a gainer and a good Poacher is a nice card to gain, you just don't particularly to pay $5 for it.

In summary, University has some potential downsides that you have to factor in, and Highway has some potential downsides that you have to factor in, and they do absolutely nothing to mitigate each other's downsides!

This is the other thing that I disagree with, they do mitigate each other's downsides! Just not quite as much as you might think at first glace. In the context of a game with no +buy or other gainers Highway is basically a Peddler, not a bad card in that it's never really going to make your deck worse (yes yes dead terminal draw) but bad in that spending a $5 buy on it isn't particularly efficient. University mitigates this downside because it can gain those Highways at a much lower cost. Highway mitigates Universities downside that eventually you stop adding terminal actions to your deck and it essentially becomes a Necropolis by being a cantrip card you can pick up that will allow Universities to continue to improve your deck. Okay so this isn't a very strong interaction, but it is an interaction, and far from potentially harmful. It's more just a "not as useful as you'd like" interaction or something...
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Awaclus

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1178 on: December 27, 2017, 07:53:55 pm »
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they do mitigate each other's downsides!

In some cases, you want to go for Highway without University. When that happens, it's a nombo the same way Scout + Nobles is a nombo; it would be better to buy Nobles without Scout.
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1179 on: December 27, 2017, 08:03:47 pm »
0

they do mitigate each other's downsides!

In some cases, you want to go for Highway without University. When that happens, it's a nombo the same way Scout + Nobles is a nombo; it would be better to buy Nobles without Scout.

Using this logic every single card in dominion is a nombo with every other card: there are going to be games where it would be better to buy one card and not another. E.g. Ironmonger isn't a nombo with Fortune Teller because it would be better to not get a Fortune Teller.
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crj

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1180 on: December 28, 2017, 09:35:17 am »
+3

I'd got the impression a "nombo" was usually something that looked like it would be a combo, but which failed dramatically for an unanticipated reason. Secondarily, it could mean a group of cards that worked especially badly together.

I'd have said Inheritance on Band of Misfits was an example of the first usage, and Chapel+Gardens an example of the latter.

Something like, oh, Market and Farmlands, where there's no particular reason to use them together, but equally no unexpected pitfalls or particular reason to avoid incorporating them into the same strategy, I wouldn't have called a nombo.
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JThorne

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1181 on: December 28, 2017, 12:16:53 pm »
+3

Ok, maybe "nombo" is a bit strong. However, I just ran a simulation, and it is, in fact, "potentially harmful."

Opening Potion/Silver, buying one University, then gaining and buying Highways as fast as you can, vs. opening Silver/Silver and buying Highways as fast as you can has clear results:

University method: 10.1 average turns to 5 Highways
Silver method: 9.5 average turns to 5 Highways

(Buying more Universities only gets it down to 10.0)

Mathematically, then, University, on its own, makes getting Highways slower, not faster.

Maybe that doesn't rise to the level of nombo, but it gets pretty close to "potentially harmful interaction."

I'm sure this surprises very few experienced players, but given that the original poster was probably a relative beginner to have posted the suggestion in the first place, learning that potion-cost cards really do slow down your deckbuilding that much might be a useful bit of knowledge to apply moving forward. If you're going to buy a poison potion, have a solid plan to make up for doing so.
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1182 on: December 28, 2017, 02:34:27 pm »
0

Ok, maybe "nombo" is a bit strong. However, I just ran a simulation, and it is, in fact, "potentially harmful."

Opening Potion/Silver, buying one University, then gaining and buying Highways as fast as you can, vs. opening Silver/Silver and buying Highways as fast as you can has clear results:

University method: 10.1 average turns to 5 Highways
Silver method: 9.5 average turns to 5 Highways

(Buying more Universities only gets it down to 10.0)

Mathematically, then, University, on its own, makes getting Highways slower, not faster.

Maybe that doesn't rise to the level of nombo, but it gets pretty close to "potentially harmful interaction."

I'm sure this surprises very few experienced players, but given that the original poster was probably a relative beginner to have posted the suggestion in the first place, learning that potion-cost cards really do slow down your deckbuilding that much might be a useful bit of knowledge to apply moving forward. If you're going to buy a poison potion, have a solid plan to make up for doing so.

Right, but nobody said that University is good at gaining Highways quickly and again, this isn't an interaction between University and Highway specifically, it's just how Uni works. Repeat this simulation with other $5's and you'll see what I mean.

This is ignoring the fact that the 2 strategies featured in your simulation are close to never going to be optimal ever in a real game as they ignore the 8 other cards in the kingdom, so in a real game there will be a possibility that University will be the fastest way gain Highways. It is also ignoring the other utility that University provides.

Like I could post a simulation showing that Mandarin/Capital beats Travelling Fair/Counting House 90% (made up number) of the time but that doesn't make Travelling Fair/Counting House a "potentially harmful" interaction.
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JThorne

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1183 on: December 28, 2017, 04:21:18 pm »
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Right, but nobody said that University is good at gaining Highways quickly

The original poster listed "University + Highway" as a NaPUCI. There can be no other possible interpretation. Highway doesn't need the +actions.

Quote
this isn't an interaction between University and Highway specifically, it's just how Uni works. Repeat this simulation with other $5's and you'll see what I mean.

Done. And you're only sometimes right. University + Groundskeeper gains 5 Groundskeepers faster. Double-silver opening takes 11.1 turns to do so on average. So University is only slower when gaining cards that don't give economy. That's part of the redundancy: Highways already help you get more highways.

Quote
in a real game there will be a possibility that University will be the fastest way gain Highways.

A possibility. But a probability? In a real game, there is likely to be +buy or you might skip Highway altogether, and with +buy and cost reduction, you could be getting $5s by the handful. University is still likely to slow you down.

In fact, I'll offer that as a challenge: Show me a simulation where University is, in fact, the fastest way to gain Highways in a kingdom. Can you do it without making University the only source of +Actions?

Quote
It is also ignoring the other utility that University provides.

Correct. The original post was not "Highway + University + other cool stuff." It listed only Highway + University as a NaPUCI. I am saying that it is not. It is...let's see...an anti-synergy?

Quote
Like I could post a simulation showing that Mandarin/Capital beats Travelling Fair/Counting House 90% (made up number) of the time but that doesn't make Travelling Fair/Counting House a "potentially harmful" interaction.

I said nothing about which simulation wins. I never simulated getting points. I only simulated getting Highways in order to demonstrate that University + Highway isn't a thing. Sure, you might gain a Highway with a University that you have in your deck for other reasons, on your way to a big engine. That doesn't make it a thing.

I have had to explain to beginners that Beggar + Moneylender isn't a thing. It looks good on the surface: Gain coppers, turn them into $3 each. But you would have to really create a tortured scenario to make that anything other than awful. Things that look good on the surface and turn out not to be so good are a key part of learning this game.

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Gazbag

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1184 on: December 28, 2017, 07:46:53 pm »
0

Okay this is getting a bit ridiculous... I never said that pure Highway/University was a thing. In fact I said that was the thing that I agreed with you on multiple times. All I said was that saying it is a nombo is going too far. Nothing that you have said has really addressed that. Like you're obviously aiming these posts at me because I'm the one who keeps disagreeing with you, but the content of your posts seems to be aimed at someone who is saying that pure Uni/Highway is a combo or something (which nobody ever said - not even the original poster). Here is the relevant quote.

Right, I am an idiot. University specifies 'action'. I was looking for a non-terminal anything gainer to combo with Highway for gaining several Provinces each turn. Artificer requires either a lot of Highways or a lot of discards, Vampire works, but Bat doesn't gain, Devil's Workshop only lets you do it once each turn, Cobbler is played at start-of-turn, Wish is hard to get.

Obviously he made a mistake, but that has been cleared up now.

Quote
Right, but nobody said that University is good at gaining Highways quickly

The original poster listed "University + Highway" as a NaPUCI. There can be no other possible interpretation. Highway doesn't need the +actions.

Well I just proved that wrong. I interpreted it as "Highway reduces costs so it lets Uni gain actions that cost more than $5." Because that is actually a neat and potentially useful interaction! I'd love to see how you approach boards with Grand Market or Kings Court along with the two cards in question.

Quote
this isn't an interaction between University and Highway specifically, it's just how Uni works. Repeat this simulation with other $5's and you'll see what I mean.

Done. And you're only sometimes right. University + Groundskeeper gains 5 Groundskeepers faster. Double-silver opening takes 11.1 turns to do so on average. So University is only slower when gaining cards that don't give economy. That's part of the redundancy: Highways already help you get more highways.

Ah so how about Treasury, Baker or Market? The ones which I've already compared Highway to in this scenario. I should have been more clear that that's what I was talking about, sorry. Also I think you mean University is only faster when gaining cards that don't give economy.

Quote
in a real game there will be a possibility that University will be the fastest way gain Highways.

A possibility. But a probability? In a real game, there is likely to be +buy or you might skip Highway altogether, and with +buy and cost reduction, you could be getting $5s by the handful. University is still likely to slow you down.

In fact, I'll offer that as a challenge: Show me a simulation where University is, in fact, the fastest way to gain Highways in a kingdom. Can you do it without making University the only source of +Actions?

I'm pretty confident that any trashing, strong cycling or attacks that make it hard to hit $5 will make Uni way better than Silvers. I don't much care for simulations myself, I've always found that they are very misleading - this is an example of such a situation.

Quote
It is also ignoring the other utility that University provides.

Correct. The original post was not "Highway + University + other cool stuff." It listed only Highway + University as a NaPUCI. I am saying that it is not. It is...let's see...an anti-synergy?

Oh yeah because it's not like there's at least 8 other cool things that are guaranteed to be in every game with with Highway+University.  I find your tone very patronising and not particularly pleasant here, which I'm a bit surprised about because this seemed like a friendly enough discussion so far...

Quote
Like I could post a simulation showing that Mandarin/Capital beats Travelling Fair/Counting House 90% (made up number) of the time but that doesn't make Travelling Fair/Counting House a "potentially harmful" interaction.

I said nothing about which simulation wins. I never simulated getting points. I only simulated getting Highways in order to demonstrate that University + Highway isn't a thing. Sure, you might gain a Highway with a University that you have in your deck for other reasons, on your way to a big engine. That doesn't make it a thing.

I just proxied the Highways for Provinces - it's exactly the same principle (fastest to get Highways in your case, fastest to get Provinces in mine) and ultimately they're both pretty meaningless. You contrived an unrealistic situation to try and prove something that nobody even disagreed with in the first place, so I contrived an unrealistic situation to do the same thing, to make a point.

I agree with you about this not being a particularly "neat" interaction.

This isn't reason enough to go for University on it's own, but it's certainly not a nombo and might be enough to tip you in the direction of University if it's a close call.

I never said it was a thing! Even the guy who said it was a thing has now said that he made a mistake! I suggest you actually read the thread before you post. (My turn to be patronising  :P)

Anyway I'd be happy to play some games with you featuring both University and Highway so we can how differently we approach those boards and potentially both learn something, rather than continuing to argue in circles.
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Cuzz

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1185 on: January 10, 2018, 05:08:00 pm »
+4

Villa - Merchant Guild

Villa lets you spend the coin tokens you gain from Merchant Guild on the same turn you earn them. Just lost a game where I was certain my opponent was one $ short of winning on a pileout, but this trick put them over the top.
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Skumpy

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1186 on: January 10, 2018, 08:18:38 pm »
+2

Sacrifice + Rats

It's been pointed out before, but in my match vs jonts, I passed over both Ambassador and Masquerade for it to see what happens. The answer is: insanely fast cycling that doesn't draw things dead.
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crj

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1187 on: January 11, 2018, 12:30:10 pm »
+2

Forager/Heirlooms

Definitely neat, and definitely potentially useful. But you possibly want to win the Forager split before trashing your Heirlooms...
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1188 on: January 11, 2018, 12:51:54 pm »
+1

Forager/Heirlooms

Definitely neat, and definitely potentially useful. But you possibly want to win the Forager split before trashing your Heirlooms...

I guess this depends on the Heirloom: Goat, Pouch and Pasture are things that you might want to keep for the whole game.
Magic Lamp and Haunted Mirror tend to end up in the trash so they'd make Forager better, Forager is extra good with Haunted Mirror of course, not the best to trigger Lamp though because it eats up 2 hand spaces.

Haunted Mirror and Lucky Coin are probably the most interesting, if Forager is the only +buy you might want to keep these around to use Curses/Silvers to fuel a Forager.
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smuggler

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1189 on: January 12, 2018, 12:01:02 pm »
0

i had a game with shanty town and training
i played big money-ish, with some minor drawing (+2)
payload was gold
i managed to draw 2 cards like 3-4 times of 5 shanty towns
a +2 +2 which also gave (1) for (3) was just epic
i finished game with 6 to 2 prov. (triple province in last round)
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1190 on: January 12, 2018, 09:14:04 pm »
+9

Ghost + Prince

No, you don't get to Prince 2 cards, but there's still a cool interaction. When you Ghost a Prince, at the beginning of your next turn the Prince sets aside a card. Then the Prince gets played again and doesn't do anything. Now it's still technically the "start of your turn", so the card you just Princed gets played immediately!
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Chappy7

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1191 on: January 13, 2018, 11:09:35 am »
+3

Will-o-wisp and Bandit Camp.  Spoils cost 0, so will-o-wisp picks them up! Plus I got the WOW from pixie, which means goat ate everything else, so WOW was pretty consistently a lab. 
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1192 on: January 13, 2018, 11:27:56 am »
+5

Cursed Village + Fishing Village

Not only is FV a decent source of virtual coin, being able to play a bunch of terminals before playing a CV increases the CV draw significantly.
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BBL

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1193 on: January 15, 2018, 04:04:04 am »
+6

Death Cart + Monastery
Buy a Death Cart with Monastery in hand, trash three cards including the copper you used for your purchase and increase the odds of colliding your Death Cart with one of the ruins.
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ipofanes

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1194 on: January 15, 2018, 05:39:38 am »
0

Cursed Village + Fishing Village

Not only is FV a decent source of virtual coin, being able to play a bunch of terminals before playing a CV increases the CV draw significantly.

hm, I think I would go for Watchtower/Library and FV and skip CV if all three were available. Not sure if the additional actions justify the extra $2 expense and being Hexed (though many Hexes fizzle when issued during the Buy phase).
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Chris is me

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1195 on: January 15, 2018, 06:09:07 am »
+5

Cursed Village + Fishing Village

Not only is FV a decent source of virtual coin, being able to play a bunch of terminals before playing a CV increases the CV draw significantly.

hm, I think I would go for Watchtower/Library and FV and skip CV if all three were available. Not sure if the additional actions justify the extra $2 expense and being Hexed (though many Hexes fizzle when issued during the Buy phase).

It absolutely does justify it. The Hexes are for the most part not that bad (lots of them do nothing during the Buy phase), and nonterminal draw is just better than terminal draw for all sorts of reasons that should be obvious. Why make your deck difficult to use when you don’t have to?

Along the lines of the above, Conclave + Cursed Village at start of turn gives you 3 Cards 3 Actions, allowing you to play two terminals before your next CV so you can draw 3 cards again.
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trivialknot

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1196 on: January 15, 2018, 09:57:41 pm »
+2

Pooka + Bandit Camp

There's the obvious village+draw synergy, but also the treasure gaining + treasure trashing synergy.  It's really tricky though because if you spend all your spoils you might dud the next turn for lack of treasure.  And unless your opponent is mirroring, maybe you want to end the game before the spoils all run out.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1197 on: January 27, 2018, 05:08:25 pm »
+1

Rats + Tower

The classic Rats pileout is always a fun way to win, but it can be tricky to pull off since the Rats will usually eat the rest of your deck, requiring you to not rely on Victory cards for points. 

With Tower, gaining all the Rats is suddenly a hefty chunk of VP.  As other piles get low, keep a close eye out for the Rats ending, and be ready to pull the trigger when the moment is right.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1198 on: January 28, 2018, 12:58:05 pm »
+1

Advance+Villa

Not as crazy as Alms+Villa, but something to keep in mind if you don't hit $4 after playing a terminal draw card or in other situations.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1199 on: January 28, 2018, 03:03:12 pm »
+8

Exorcist / Quarry

Trash Estate, gain Imp
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