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Author Topic: Neat and potentially useful card interactions  (Read 504401 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #400 on: December 09, 2015, 07:19:28 pm »
+24

I do not like it, microman. I do not like BM-Gear spam.

But do you like it in a box?  Do you like it with a fox?

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drsteelhammer

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #401 on: December 10, 2015, 07:30:49 am »
+1

Gear is just the best.

 :'(

It's sad because it's true.
Why sad?  Don't you like Gear.  I know I do.

I do not like it, microman. I do not like BM-Gear spam.

I'm still not a believer in Gear. I'll concede that it's on par with Smithy-BM or a bit better than that, but beyond that? I don't see it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #402 on: December 10, 2015, 08:51:34 am »
+2

Gear is just the best.

 :'(

It's sad because it's true.
Why sad?  Don't you like Gear.  I know I do.

I do not like it, microman. I do not like BM-Gear spam.

I'm still not a believer in Gear. I'll concede that it's on par with Smithy-BM or a bit better than that, but beyond that? I don't see it.

13 turns, man.  13 turns.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 08:52:51 am by werothegreat »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #403 on: December 10, 2015, 10:22:58 am »
+7

I'd be surprised if this wasn't already discussed a lot, but I don't remember specifically reading about it, so....

Procession + Feast. Gain 3 s instead of just the normal 1 you'd get with Feast or the 2 you'd get with Throne Room + Feast.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #404 on: December 10, 2015, 10:51:53 am »
0

Also works with King's Court (and is slightly better with it).
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Asper

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #405 on: December 10, 2015, 11:41:28 am »
+3

Also works with King's Court (and is slightly better with it).

The only thing KC/Feast can do that Procession/Feast can't is gain a set of 3 cards where each is either non-action or costs less than $5. If for any time you use this combo at least one card you gain is both an action and costs $5, King's Court does the same thing and costs a lot more. I admit a possible reason to go for King's Court (besides the usual awesomeness of KC) would be the option to gain 3 Duchies.
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Asper

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #406 on: December 10, 2015, 12:56:02 pm »
0

Oh, i forgot: King's Cout is also better if you played a card to reduce costs.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #407 on: December 12, 2015, 08:07:14 pm »
+2

Beggar/Counting House.

This seems to be ok on weak colony boards. Just buy nothing but Beggar, Colony and Counting House the entire game. Resilient against most attacks. Seems pretty fast.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #408 on: December 16, 2015, 09:02:51 am »
+4

Contraband + Fairgrounds

This is hardly a power combo, but it is a pretty cool synergy.  The presence of Fairgrounds (along with conditions sufficient to make it worth pursuing) ameliorates Contraband's downside.  While you're developing a deck with a variety of components, a ban on one particular component is rarely impactful.  When you're greening, a single ban isn't crippling, because you're often willing to pick up Provinces or Fairgrounds (or a single Duchy).  Contraband, with its healthy coin payload and additional buy, makes it easier to pick up the variety of kingdom cards needed to fuel Fairgrounds.

(I belatedly notice that this synergy is mentioned in the strategy section for both cards on the Wiki.  Oh well, I guess I'm unlikely to discover novel synergies that don't include Adventures cards at this point...)
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #409 on: December 17, 2015, 02:46:41 pm »
0

Also works with King's Court (and is slightly better with it).

Yeah but KC is a $7, Procession is a $4. Of course KC is going to be more powerful.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #410 on: December 18, 2015, 08:43:49 pm »
+1

I'm sorry if this was pointed out before, but Possession/Haunted Woods seems to offer a way to lock an opponent out of the game - provided his deck is good enough. Which is especially nasty as if, in a 2 player game, both build an engine to draw their deck, the one to be able and play Possession/Haunted Woods first, has a good chance to win just because of this.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #411 on: December 19, 2015, 01:05:15 am »
+1

Gear + Trader

Gear BM is very good by itself; it races to 4 Provinces as fast as any single card (I believe) and it is pretty consistent, because you can make your own shuffle luck.  However, Gear BM has trouble with junkers and maintaining momentum once it starts greening.  Enter Trader: one of Gear's best supporting cards.  Gear makes it easy to pair up Trader with your starting Estates, and Trader increases the average quality of your deck in two dimensions.  Gear + Trader isn't any faster to 4 Provinces, but it dominates in a long game, which makes it fare better against engines and when there is alternative VP.  Trader also handles junkers very well (it may be worth picking up a second Trader against some junkers).  It's also pretty fun to play (by BM standards)!

Strategy:
  • Open Gear + Trader.
  • Prioritize trashing your Estates with Trader.
  • Get a second Gear before the second or third reshuffle.  You'll want the second Gear early if you draw Gear on turn 4.  You'll want to wait if your first Gear doesn't arrive until turn 5.  I think it's correct to get Gear + Silver if you happen to draw your Gear on turn 3.
  • Try to get Gold + Gold on turns 5 and 6.
  • Aim for Provinces and Gold from turn 7 onwards, grabbing Duchies as dictated by your opponent's strategy.
  • If you have a dud hand with Trader, trash a Silver or Gold.  It might be correct to trash a Duchy or Province under some circumstances.

Solitaire Results:
I played three solitaire games with this strategy.  I got 48+ victory points by turn 17 in all three games.  In my first game, I mistakenly got a Province on turn 6, so it took a while to recover, but then I finished with 5 Province turns in a row to run out the pile!  In the second game, I grabbed some Duchies pretty early and ended with 6 Provinces and 4 Duchies.  In the third game, I didn't manage to trash my third Estate, but I got 4 Provinces by turn 12 and finished with 7 Provinces, 2 Duchies, and an Estate.
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JW

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #412 on: December 19, 2015, 02:59:51 am »
+2

I'm sorry if this was pointed out before, but Possession/Haunted Woods seems to offer a way to lock an opponent out of the game - provided his deck is good enough. Which is especially nasty as if, in a 2 player game, both build an engine to draw their deck, the one to be able and play Possession/Haunted Woods first, has a good chance to win just because of this.

Stef described this combo in an Adventures preview thread:

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.
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Asper

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #413 on: December 19, 2015, 04:40:47 am »
0

I'm sorry if this was pointed out before, but Possession/Haunted Woods seems to offer a way to lock an opponent out of the game - provided his deck is good enough. Which is especially nasty as if, in a 2 player game, both build an engine to draw their deck, the one to be able and play Possession/Haunted Woods first, has a good chance to win just because of this.

Stef described this combo in an Adventures preview thread:

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

Thanks. Thinking of it, this seems familiar. But why in the world is he talking about buying a Copper? A deck that draws itself should be able to pick up engine parts instead, making it easier, not harder, to repeat the process. I guess it's the case if your opponent's deck has so little money it can't buy anything better (sans the five bad cards), but that makes trashing the premise for a situation where you need trashing. Which is especially weird as he immediately before talked about going for Possession, which costs quite a lot...

The interaction  is also interesting in that an opponent's Haunted Woods may actually help you to line up your Potion with enough money to buy Possession.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 04:42:57 am by Asper »
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Chris is me

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #414 on: December 19, 2015, 08:17:29 am »
0

I'm sorry if this was pointed out before, but Possession/Haunted Woods seems to offer a way to lock an opponent out of the game - provided his deck is good enough. Which is especially nasty as if, in a 2 player game, both build an engine to draw their deck, the one to be able and play Possession/Haunted Woods first, has a good chance to win just because of this.

Stef described this combo in an Adventures preview thread:

This is indeed a combo with possession. (unlike possession-forge, which has such bizarre requirements it will never work in practice)
I've been on the receiving end of this combo and can confirm it's very painful. The requirements are:

* both possession and haunted woods on the board
* a village
* a way to trash cards

Then you both spot this combo and go for it. One of you will be slightly faster then the other. You will possess, buy a copper, topdeck 5 bad cards and they have a dud turn. You will possess again, and now you get to play with their deck minus the 5 bad cards. That is probably good enough to draw the deck again and voila 5 bad cards on top again. You do need to buy a copper every time you possess them, so you should also include a way to get rid of that copper on your own turns.

All in all it's about on par with Possession-Ambassador and Possession-Masquerade - if you end up on the losing side you simply lose the game.
But if you both accept this race as 'the new game to play' it's still a fun one to play out. Just resign once you're blocked out in stead of letting the agony get to you.
In theory you could hope to buy so many coppers on the turns you still do get to play that your own deck becomes so bad they can't keep it up, but no... no thanks.

Thanks. Thinking of it, this seems familiar. But why in the world is he talking about buying a Copper? A deck that draws itself should be able to pick up engine parts instead, making it easier, not harder, to repeat the process. I guess it's the case if your opponent's deck has so little money it can't buy anything better (sans the five bad cards), but that makes trashing the premise for a situation where you need trashing. Which is especially weird as he immediately before talked about going for Possession, which costs quite a lot...

The interaction  is also interesting in that an opponent's Haunted Woods may actually help you to line up your Potion with enough money to buy Possession.

You want to have them topdeck 5 cards that won't work togehter (like 5 terminal draw cards, 5 Victory cards, etc), so to keep those cards in hand you generally don't focus on building up much of an economy that turn. Every card you play is a card that can't go on your opponent's deck.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #415 on: December 19, 2015, 03:33:22 pm »
+3

Another BM synergy:

Courtyard + Quest

Courtyard provides the 6-card hands to guarantee Gold via Quest.  Courtyard can save Gold for the next turn when a Province is out of reach.  Simple and effective.  This strategy is very fast, reliable, and pretty resilient to greening.  It gets destroyed by any handsize attack, though.

Strategy:
  • Open Courtyard + Courtyard.
  • Whenever you have the coin, buy a Province.
  • If not, use Quest to gain a Gold (or buy a Duchy late-game).
  • If you have a hand with no Courtyard, buy a third Courtyard or a Duchy.
Solitaire Results:
I played three solitaire games with this strategy.  In the first two, I stopped at turn 13, after acquiring 33 VP.  In the first game, I ended with 5 Provinces, 5 Golds, and 3 Courtyards.  In the second game, I ended with 4 Provinces, 2 Duchies, 5 Golds, and 2 Courtyards.  In the third game, I decided to simulate playing against alt-VP.  I bought all 8 Provinces by turn 18.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 03:34:56 pm by aku_chi »
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Chris is me

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #416 on: December 19, 2015, 03:50:19 pm »
+3

Another BM synergy:

Courtyard + Quest

Courtyard provides the 6-card hands to guarantee Gold via Quest.  Courtyard can save Gold for the next turn when a Province is out of reach.  Simple and effective.  This strategy is very fast, reliable, and pretty resilient to greening.  It gets destroyed by any handsize attack, though.

Strategy:
  • Open Courtyard + Courtyard.
  • Whenever you have the coin, buy a Province.
  • If not, use Quest to gain a Gold (or buy a Duchy late-game).
  • If you have a hand with no Courtyard, buy a third Courtyard or a Duchy.
Solitaire Results:
I played three solitaire games with this strategy.  In the first two, I stopped at turn 13, after acquiring 33 VP.  In the first game, I ended with 5 Provinces, 5 Golds, and 3 Courtyards.  In the second game, I ended with 4 Provinces, 2 Duchies, 5 Golds, and 2 Courtyards.  In the third game, I decided to simulate playing against alt-VP.  I bought all 8 Provinces by turn 18.

You know what's even better though? Gear + Quest! You can always set aside exactly as many cards as you did the previous turn and still guarantee a Gold, plus you can keep those golds shuffling along for Province buys!

Gear is still the best
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aku_chi

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #417 on: December 19, 2015, 04:48:15 pm »
+4

You know what's even better though? Gear + Quest! You can always set aside exactly as many cards as you did the previous turn and still guarantee a Gold, plus you can keep those golds shuffling along for Province buys!

Gear is still the best
I played a few solitaire games with Gear + Quest.  I had fantastic draws in my first game and got to 5 Provinces by turn 12!  The next game, my draws were poor and it took me 16 turns to get the same amount of VP (I'm willing to believe that I played this sub-optimally).  I thought the draws on my third game were hit and miss, but I managed to get 5 Provinces by turn 12 again (and an additional 9 VP by turn 14 - though my turn 15 was terrible).

My verdict: Gear + Quest is about as powerful as Courtyard + Quest, but less reliable and less synergistic.
Reliability: With Courtyard, you can always save a card and get a Gold.  So, if Courtyards collide, you simply set one aside for the next turn.  With Gear, you have to make a choice: set aside cards, or gain a Gold.  This is a tough choice.  The Gear + Quest strategy becomes really strong when you can set aside two cards and get a Gold or Province each turn.  To start that up, though, I found myself needing to be able to buy a Gold outright on a Gear turn (maybe I should have considered buying a Silver).  Plus, the moment you miss a Gear, you have a tough dilemma next turn: set aside or discard for Gold.
Synergy: With Courtyard + Quest, I managed to go 18 turns, purchasing 8 Provinces, and only had one non-Province, non-Quest, non-Courtyard purchase (an Estate on turn 17).  That's beautiful synergy.  With Gear + Quest, I only ended up using Quest 2-3 times per game; I bought at least as many Gold outright.  The strategy was effective mostly because Gear BM is effective.  The presence of Quest makes Courtyard more better than Gear (even though the two strategies are equally effective), if that makes sense.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #418 on: December 21, 2015, 10:13:06 am »
+5

One good enabler I haven't seen listed here is Storeroom + Duchy/Duke.  Duchy/Duke decks typically struggle from getting overwhelmed with green cards.  With Storeroom (assuming no hand-size attacks), as long as you have a Silver in the other 4 cards in your hand or in your top 4 cards, you are guaranteed a 5-cost card.  So Storeroom continues to grab 5-cost cards even with a very low money density.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #419 on: December 21, 2015, 10:34:12 am »
+1

One good enabler I haven't seen listed here is Storeroom + Duchy/Duke.  Duchy/Duke decks typically struggle from getting overwhelmed with green cards.  With Storeroom (assuming no hand-size attacks), as long as you have a Silver in the other 4 cards in your hand or in your top 4 cards, you are guaranteed a 5-cost card.  So Storeroom continues to grab 5-cost cards even with a very low money density.
Also keeps yourmoney density up when you spends its extra buys on copper.

It's very similar to Horse Traders/Duke in that respect, except Horse Traders/Duke is a bit more resilient to discard attacks.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #420 on: December 22, 2015, 10:18:11 am »
+3

Stonemason + Border Village + Duke (really, any 5, though)

Obvious synergy here - for $8, get a Stonemason, two $6 Villages, two of anything you want. Great for engines, but also great for Duke / Duchy, because you can then play Stonemason to trash the BV to get two MORE $5 cost cards, and Stonemason helps rush piles, speeding up Duke / Duchy a lot.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 10:49:56 am by Chris is me »
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #421 on: December 22, 2015, 11:10:16 am »
+6

One good enabler I haven't seen listed here is Storeroom + Duchy/Duke.  Duchy/Duke decks typically struggle from getting overwhelmed with green cards.  With Storeroom (assuming no hand-size attacks), as long as you have a Silver in the other 4 cards in your hand or in your top 4 cards, you are guaranteed a 5-cost card.  So Storeroom continues to grab 5-cost cards even with a very low money density.
Also keeps yourmoney density up when you spends its extra buys on copper.

It's very similar to Horse Traders/Duke in that respect, except Horse Traders/Duke is a bit more resilient to discard attacks.

Seems to me with Storeroom/Duke you actually don't want the extra Coppers. The name of the game is to line up Storeroom with Silver, so Coppers aren't helping you hit $5 here.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #422 on: January 07, 2016, 09:07:13 am »
+12

Artificer + Poor House

As the only 1-cost card, Poor House is uniquely trivial to gain with Artificer.  And Artificer can make your Poor Houses more powerful by selectively discarding treasures (for benefit!).

Artificer + Native Village

Gaining victory cards with Artificer is usually not ideal, because they go on top of your deck.  But with Native Village, this is a feature!  You can reliably gain victory cards and store them away on your Native Village mat.  Plus, Native Villages are easy to gain with Artificer.

Artificer + Menagerie

A more obvious synergy.  Artificer can selectively discard cards to activate Menagerie.  Menagerie is also cheap enough to gain with Artificer.  Consider: a hand with Artificer + Menagerie + three other cards.  You can play the Artificer, discard three other cards to gain a Menagerie, play a (guaranteed activated) Menagerie and play the gained Menagerie.  You now have a 4 or 6 card hand with 1 coin and an extra Menagerie in your deck.  And that's a low bar on the synergy between these two cards.  Pretty cool.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 09:19:20 am by aku_chi »
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #423 on: January 13, 2016, 02:26:44 am »
+16

alms (event) and hermit have a neat interaction.  You can buy alms on a hermit turn and still get a madman since paying for alms isn't technically buying a card.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #424 on: January 20, 2016, 01:40:03 pm »
+1

Not sure if this has been posted but transmogrify peddler is super good; better than any other trash for benefit peddler.
Transmogrify is super good at milling provinces.
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