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Author Topic: Neat and potentially useful card interactions  (Read 258601 times)

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mxdata

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1525 on: June 06, 2020, 02:51:16 am »
+7

I just had a game tonight where I had two Market Squares and a Watchtower in hand when my opponent played Marauder.  I used Watchtower to trash the Ruins, then reacted with the Market Squares to gain 2 Golds, and then revealed the same Watchtower to topdeck the Golds!  Then on my turn, I played Watchtower to draw those Golds
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Vengil

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1526 on: June 06, 2020, 06:38:29 am »
+2

Research / Fortress

Of course Fortress is good with any TFB, but this interaction makes Research shines.

I played a game where I bought 3 Researches and 3 Fortress and I was starting every turn with 9 or 13 cards in hand. This made me win against a player so much better than me.

This week I played 3 "Research" + a lot of "Rats".
It was very strong.
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mxdata

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1527 on: June 07, 2020, 06:45:20 pm »
+2

Innovation + Way of the Worm lets you Exile an Estate from the Supply every time you buy an Action card
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1528 on: July 23, 2020, 03:31:47 pm »
+8

The Bank Gamble

Draw your deck. Have 9 treasures in play, $9 to spend, and as many +buys as you can manage. Buy a Bank. Gamble. Play the Bank. It generates $10 and Gamble gives a buy. Repeat until the stack is gone.

Starting with a full Bank pile this will generate $55 and leave you with $64 which is enough to pile out the provinces if you can generate enough +buys. Even if not, you can crush a pile for no cash cost or just quickly and dramatically increase you cash generating potential or get high value feedstock for scaling TfB.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 09:09:45 pm by jomini »
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AJD

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1529 on: July 25, 2020, 03:27:14 am »
+8

Guardian is surprisingly not good against Coven.

I just lost a game where I won the curse split 8–1. I was protecting myself from my opponent's Covens with Guardians, while she was basically unprotected and just taking the curses. But because of my Guardians, the Curse pile depleted really slowly, so my opponent's curses never actually made it into her deck at all. So the upshot was, she lost some points but not in a way that impacted her deck efficiency, while I had a bunch of duration-coppers slowing my deck down, and I lost the Provinces 2–6.
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1530 on: July 27, 2020, 03:05:42 pm »
+3

Guardian is surprisingly not good against Coven.

I just lost a game where I won the curse split 8–1. I was protecting myself from my opponent's Covens with Guardians, while she was basically unprotected and just taking the curses. But because of my Guardians, the Curse pile depleted really slowly, so my opponent's curses never actually made it into her deck at all. So the upshot was, she lost some points but not in a way that impacted her deck efficiency, while I had a bunch of duration-coppers slowing my deck down, and I lost the Provinces 2–6.

Your experience is not about Guardian being weak, it actually is quite strong, you are more describing the weakness of Coven, and particularly with how I presume you played it.

For the price of $4, a single draw slot, and two gains you can protect your deck the entire game. Guardian is even better because you can wait through a few curses before buying them or have a few curses slip through before you trash down (e.g. using Spice merchant) without bloating your deck. You need never worry about drawing them dead (like Lighthouse) nor having them out of hand (like Moat). With very few exceptions (e.g. a Lib deck), you just plan on dumping two Guardians into your deck and maybe picking up a third or fourth late game to prevent ten bloat cards from being dumped into the deck.

The problem is Coven. Losing 10 curses means you just need to win the Prov split 5:3, which should not be hard to do when your opponent has kindly bought a couple of $5 silvers. Absent trashing and buying two Covens on T3&4 you are looking at something like T 14-T15 to get the curses shuffled into the deck. Absent something else, you have lost the provinces badly before then.

Where Coven works is where you can play two per turn or more (making it around T10 - 12 to shuffle in the curses) per turn. Coven also works well when the game will last longer (e.g. Colonies, other attacks, alt-VP). As is, slowing down the cursing game just a tiny bit (e.g. in this case you could not draw deck with the Guardians), normally lets you coast to an easy victory. In many ways it is like Mountain Pass, losing a couple turns to paying down debt or to playing $5 silvers is just not worth it for <12 VP.
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AJD

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1531 on: July 27, 2020, 08:07:23 pm »
0

Meaning I should have bought Guardians, but not Covens, but rather stronger $5s? That's plausible—but I think there's no way I would have been able to get enough Guardians to protect myself "for the price of $4, a single draw slot, and two gains"—I don't remember what the kingdom was like in this game, but there was definitely not enough +card available for two Guardians to provide any reliable protection.
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1532 on: July 27, 2020, 09:23:45 pm »
0

You typically would not need full protection then. How many Covens was your opponent averaging per turn? 1? 1.5? Blocking say every third or fourth turn will stretch out how long it takes for you to get all 10 in your draw deck.

Obviously, there are some boards where it is hard to get enough VP before your deck chokes on 10 curses and that can mean playing Coven is the best option. But in general, relatively few Dominion games take longer than 15 turns. And it is a pretty rare board that lets you play more than one Coven per turn on average but not also block them all with just two or three Guardians.

I have certainly won any number of games by getting a victory condition (empty provinces, 3-piles, >1/2 of VP) before the shuffle after the 11th play of Coven. Which I suppose is another thing to consider, if your deck is getting kinda sloggy (e.g lots of treasure), after the 11th play you may well have 4 or 5 more turns before your expected cash tanks.

A non-mirror Coven bout turns the game into a race. But that is often a winnable race, and very much so with something like Guardian where you can buy whole shuffles off a single well-timed buy (e.g. they have no draw deck and 2 Covens in hand, you buy a $6 Guardian, and they need a full extra shuffle for just that block).
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Cuzz

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1533 on: July 30, 2020, 04:03:50 pm »
+2

IGG + Guildhall

Maybe everyone knows this already but I just got wrecked by IGG/Guildhall. In a normal IGG rush you drain IGG, Curse and usually Duchy. Pretty rare that it's the best strategy these days. With Guildhall those Duchies are Provinces instead, and it's, uh, quite good I think.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 01:56:18 pm by Cuzz »
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4est

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1534 on: July 30, 2020, 08:03:05 pm »
+2

Sheepdog + Treasure Trove

If you draw your deck and have a Sheepdog still in hand, you can use it to immediately draw and play the Copper and Gold gains from Treasure Trove. Nothing special but it sure is cute.
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mxdata

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1535 on: August 04, 2020, 02:10:40 am »
+4

Just had a game with Innovation, Rogue, and Pillage.  So, after a Pillage had been trashed, then Rogue would gain it from the trash, Innovation would allow it to be played immediately for the gain of two spoils and the targeted discard, then it would return immediately to the trash, so that, in effect, Rogue could be played like a Pillage minus the self-trashing, plus an extra $2.  That was a lot of fun
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Cuzz

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1536 on: August 04, 2020, 10:55:00 am »
+6

Sceptor - Way of the Turtle

Replay any action in play at beginning of next turn.
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mxdata

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1537 on: August 18, 2020, 12:32:08 am »
+1

I'm certain the interaction between Bank and Capitalism has been mentioned before, but I just really enjoy how thematically appropriate it is
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mxdata

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1538 on: August 21, 2020, 11:20:41 pm »
+3

In a bot game I just played, Highway and Way of the Mouse-Scheme was on the board

Since Highway's cost-reduction is a while-in-play effect, and Scheme's topdecking is not a below-the-line effect, I was able to simply buy up a few Highways and then play them as Mouse each time, for cheap Provinces.  The only thing preventing that from being an absolute blowout was that there was not a single +buy card.  Still, once I had four Highways, I simply picked up a $4 Province each turn after that
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1539 on: August 28, 2020, 04:53:15 pm »
+5

Diplomat/Way of the Chameleon

Get the village effect with a hand of 5.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1540 on: September 01, 2020, 07:03:58 am »
+1

Way of the Chameleon/Coven
Play Labs with the Coven attack.
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1541 on: September 05, 2020, 11:43:50 pm »
+1

Zombie Horses

Just another Way of the Horse Combo, but I like the thematic nature of it.

Like the rest of things that play cards without actually putting them "in play" Necromancer is great for generating a Lab effect with Way of the Horse (e.g. similar to the Bom, Overlord, and Capt). Any non-duration actions in the trash, including the starting zombies, turns a Necromancer in a $4 lab. If you end up with too many Necromancers you can Zapprentince or Zmason one to increase the number of "Labs" you can play though normally I would suggest doing that to other, cheaper actions (e.g. Ruins are worth it to buy, Zapprentice, and then turn it into a 4th or whatever Zombie Destrier).

I have not tried it yet, but I presume that you can also use Necromantic Butterflies to gain $4s (and other values if you seed the trash).
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dz

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1542 on: September 06, 2020, 01:35:19 am »
0

I have not tried it yet, but I presume that you can also use Necromantic Butterflies to gain $4s (and other values if you seed the trash).

Butterfly doesn't work. Cards in the trash can't be returned to a pile, and so you gain nothing.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1543 on: September 07, 2020, 05:20:25 pm »
0

Pillage/Counterfeit

You are gonna lose those spoils anyways, so why not double them?
Plus the spoils return before they can be trashed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1544 on: September 07, 2020, 08:08:26 pm »
+2

I have not tried it yet, but I presume that you can also use Necromantic Butterflies to gain $4s (and other values if you seed the trash).

Butterfly doesn't work. Cards in the trash can't be returned to a pile, and so you gain nothing.

This sounds like maybe the wrong explanation for the right conclusion... cards in the trash can be returned a pile, in a general sense at least. Zombies couldn’t because they have no pile, but a normal card in the trash has a pile, so if an effect had you return one; it could.

In the case of Necromancer, because the card was played “leaving it there”, the “return this” effect loses track, because it expects the card to be in play but it isn’t. So it fails to return it to its pile; not specifically because it’s in the trash but because it’s not in play where the effect expects it to be.

Maybe that all is what you meant anyway; but wanted to clarify.
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1545 on: September 09, 2020, 10:47:06 am »
0

Pillage/Counterfeit

You are gonna lose those spoils anyways, so why not double them?
Plus the spoils return before they can be trashed.
I actually find Pillage to be one of the worst Spoils targets for Counterfeits. If you play the combo every turn, you generate a whopping $4 using up an action, a buy and four draw slots. That is literally less than could get from just carrying 3 coppers and trashing/replacing 1 each turn. You could get a second Cfeit and then try to stack 5 draw into your engine, but that comes at the explicit cost of forgoing a Pillage buy/play.

Now Pillage comes with an attack that is very nice, but that attack makes it exceedingly unreliable to line up Cfeit with Spoils. First if I hit your Pillage, you may have no Spoils in deck for the shuffle afterwards. Second I can also disrupt the combo by hitting your Cfeit and forcing you to play your Spoils once. Regardless, Pillage is strongest against engines that have few clutch components where discards hurt the most (e.g. Golem, Kc); Cfeit, in contrast, thins and tends to help you buy double components (e.g. village & Smithy) where you will have a lot of redundant turns.

Bandit camp, for instance, needs only a net of 2 cards of draw to double play Spoils. That is a far stronger combo with Cfeit. Frankly, I would generally prefer something like Capital/Cfeit over Pillage/Cfeit for payload (the former generates $7 and +2 buys on net). Even with Marauder, you still have a nice shot for thinning your deck down for an engine, and eventually the ability to generate $7 in perpetuity at the price of 1 action and 3 draw slots.

Cfeit is, in general, a very good card and Pillage is situational but not too bad. It is nice to get them and line things up, but it seems like a very poor target as primary payload for an engine and not terrible reliable in a slog (particularly if you can do something else that is less finicky about lining things up, maybe like Horse traders/Duke or B-crat/alt-green).

It might be something nice to get, but I suspect than half of boards there will be a stronger combo there.
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SuperHans

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1546 on: September 29, 2020, 01:34:41 am »
+1

Black Cat/Way of the Frog.

Top deck the black cats.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1547 on: September 30, 2020, 11:24:58 pm »
+1

Black Cat/Way of the Frog.

Top deck the black cats.

They don't give out Curses unless you play them as themselves. You can set them up to be in your hand for the next turn but your hand size will take a hit until you activate them.
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mxdata

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1548 on: October 01, 2020, 12:36:12 am »
0

Black Cat/Way of the Frog.

Top deck the black cats.

They don't give out Curses unless you play them as themselves. You can set them up to be in your hand for the next turn but your hand size will take a hit until you activate them.

If you have a strong enough engine, that doesn't hurt too bad, as long as you're only top-decking one, or maybe two, Black Cats
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1549 on: October 01, 2020, 02:57:31 pm »
+2

Black Cat/Way of the Frog.

Top deck the black cats.

They don't give out Curses unless you play them as themselves. You can set them up to be in your hand for the next turn but your hand size will take a hit until you activate them.

Depends on the engine. If my village is Recruiter (say I am running Cats/Recruiter/Explorer) I really should be putting any extra Cats back even it costs a Villager most of the time. Similarly, having a +action token on them makes it even better as they can give you a village effect on the Frog turn. Or you might have ways to start with bonus actions (e.g. Prince, Mastermind). Then of course you have the million and one ways to creating a reliable draw deck (e.g. Scheme, Count, Travelling fair) that utterly does not care about 3 of your 5 starting cards.

The real clutch, though, is top decking them near game end. I have dropped 5 on deck top because my opponent could score no more than 6 VP a turn and that was not enough to win (you can actually end up in a degenerate state for Frogging Cats like this with a stalemated game).
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