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Author Topic: Neat and potentially useful card interactions  (Read 182486 times)

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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1325 on: June 05, 2018, 10:24:26 am »
+1

Not useful, but certainly neat.

When you play an Enchantress, it covers the first Action card played during a turn... Which includes a Werewolf in the Night Phase.

Or a Crown in the Buy phase, right?
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1326 on: June 09, 2018, 11:54:25 am »
+2

Turns out Tracker is a wonderful target for Prince. An extra $1, a Boon at the start of each turn, and top-decking ability for the rest of the game is all very handy.
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aku_chi

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1327 on: June 11, 2018, 02:24:51 pm »
+14

Bishop + Bonfire

There's a pretty fast golden deck here (faster and more reliable than the Chapel + Bishop golden deck).  So, if there aren't any disruptive attacks, you might want to go for it.

Turn 1-2: Buy Bishop + Bonfire
Turn 3-4: Trash 1 Estate and exactly 3 additional cards.  Usually, this comes about with one Bishop trash and two Bonfire purchases, trashing only one Copper on the second purchase.  You can also get there with two Bishop trashes and one Bonfire purchase.  Sometimes, this doesn't work out and you are delayed one turn.

Deck: Bishop, 2 Estates, 2 Coppers

Turn 5: Trash Estate, Buy Silver
Turn 6: Trash Estate, Buy Silver
Turn 7: Trash Copper, Buy Gold
Turn 8: Trash Copper, Buy Province
Turn 9+: Trash Province, Buy Province

Your VP after turn 8 is 14-15, then you get 5 VP per turn and end the game on turn 15 with 49-50 VP.  Add 1 turn to these totals if you aren't fortunate enough to trash to a 5-card hand by turn 5.
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jomini

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1328 on: June 11, 2018, 08:52:26 pm »
+1

I like lyles way better because you can just get a gold with cg and 3 coppers then donate trash everything except gold then use gold to get silver and then just go from there.

That's really slow. You want to keep at least 5 Coppers around on your first Donate, and you generally want that Donate to happen on turn 1.

I have actually done a real T1 Donate =)


Pouch/Courtier. T2 was $3/gold; pay off 4 debt. T3 was $3/gold, pay off 4 debt, buy a Shanty.

There are even a few $3s (e.g. Dev on the right board) or $4s (e.g. basically every time with Dismantle) that would would be a T1 Pouch/Donate. I would even Donate on $2 with something crazy like Page or Peasant. (particularly if the opponent buys a gainer).



I would say that in general Pouch/Donate is a very strong combo a lot of the time. You can both gain a useful card and Donate in the opening. This is particularly clutch if you have some $3/4 (e.g. Fortress/Dev, Prssn/Wshop) combo you want to run or if you get lucky enough to hit $5 with the Pouch in that hand and have a power $5 out (e.g. Courtier, Gov). It gifts you at least half a turn which is a massive speed up in already fast games.


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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1329 on: July 12, 2018, 12:22:53 pm »
0

Mint + Pooka / Cursed Gold

A mint opening will always be possible with CG, and in all but the CG/C/3E + 5C situations, it will take out your CG before the 1st shuffle at the cost of gaining just one Curse. There might be boards where this isn't what you want to do, but I don't think there will be that many of them. I had the CG/2C/2E + 3C/ML/E opening split and opened Mnt/Slv. A deck of 3E/3C/MLamp/Slv/Mnt/Crs got underway pretty nicely as I quickly picked up a Lookout and Market Square, used them to gain a gold, and was able to activate MLamp and buy a Wharf pretty quickly and Wish my way into a 2nd Wharf and 2 more Golds. MktSq and Lkt helped me trim down a bit more and get a 4th Gold and I just walked that home (there was no splitter of any sort). It seems to me that such an opening would be very nice on most boards.

NOTE - Edited as I'd got my opening split wrong for the example
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:36:27 am by cascadestyler »
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JW

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1330 on: July 12, 2018, 12:46:48 pm »
+1

Charm plus two of City Quarter, Overlord, and Royal Blacksmith. Normally one of Charmís weaknesses is that it takes a while before you can afford a strong (typically $5) card while playing Charm for the gain effect. With debt cards that is never an issue. And itís all cards from one set so it seems particularly likely to come up in IRL games.
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Asper

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1331 on: July 12, 2018, 12:59:18 pm »
0

Mint + Pooka / Cursed Gold

A mint opening will always be possible with CG, and in all but the CG/C/3E + 5C situations, it will take out your CG before the 1st shuffle at the cost of gaining just one Curse. There might be boards where this isn't what you want to do, but I don't think there will be that many of them. I had the CG/C/MLamp/2E + 4C/E opening split and opened Mnt/Slv. A deck of 3E/3C/MLamp/Slv/Mnt/Crs got underway pretty nicely as I quickly picked up a Lookout and Market Square, used them to gain a gold, and was able to activate MLamp and buy a Wharf pretty quickly and Wish my way into a 2nd Wharf and 2 more Golds. MktSq and Lkt helped me trim down a bit more and get a 4th Gold and I just walked that home (there was no splitter of any sort). It seems to me that such an opening would be very nice on most boards.

I fail to see how getting rid of Cursed Gold to replace it with an actual Curse is good. As always with Mint, its strength is getting rid of Coppers, and Cursed Gold allows you to do that earlier at the cost of a Curse... and a Mint. Now you have a deck of three Estates, a Curse, a Mint, and at least two Coppers. Although in this case Cursed Gold was worse than Copper, as a hand of five Copper can buy Mint just as well without getting a Curse. Or perhaps you drew CG together with 3 Coppers. Well, now your deck is still mostly junk. I guess you can buy Mint with a Cg/C/C opening, but honestly, I'd rather just have a trasher that helps me get rid of the non-money junk.

The real interaction here seems to be centered around Mint, Market Square and Lookout. Similar to, let's say, Mint, Tunnel and uh, Navigator.

crj

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1332 on: July 12, 2018, 01:11:09 pm »
+1

Charm plus two of City Quarter, Overlord, and Royal Blacksmith[...]
I've just noticed: unlike Talisman and Stonemason, Charm works on Victory cards. I've not tried it, but using Charm to gain a Duke when you buy a Duchy or vice-versa seems like it would be a pretty neat trick.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1333 on: July 12, 2018, 01:14:57 pm »
+1

Charm plus two of City Quarter, Overlord, and Royal Blacksmith[...]
I've just noticed: unlike Talisman and Stonemason, Charm works on Victory cards. I've not tried it, but using Charm to gain a Duke when you buy a Duchy or vice-versa seems like it would be a pretty neat trick.

You can use a lot of charms to buy a prince and gain hella lot of provinces
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1334 on: July 12, 2018, 01:34:34 pm »
0

I had the CG/C/MLamp/2E + 4C/E opening split and opened Mnt/Slv.

I'm confused about how you did this without trashing the Lamp to the Mint. Was this a Baker board? CG+C only gives $4 on its own.
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cascadestyler

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1335 on: July 13, 2018, 10:35:57 am »
0

I had the CG/C/MLamp/2E + 4C/E opening split and opened Mnt/Slv.

I'm confused about how you did this without trashing the Lamp to the Mint. Was this a Baker board? CG+C only gives $4 on its own.

Good confusion. My opening split actually was CG/2C/2E and 3C/ML/E

I'll edit my post. Thanks.
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cascadestyler

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1336 on: July 13, 2018, 10:40:54 am »
+1

Mint + Pooka / Cursed Gold

A mint opening will always be possible with CG, and in all but the CG/C/3E + 5C situations, it will take out your CG before the 1st shuffle at the cost of gaining just one Curse. There might be boards where this isn't what you want to do, but I don't think there will be that many of them. I had the CG/C/MLamp/2E + 4C/E opening split and opened Mnt/Slv. A deck of 3E/3C/MLamp/Slv/Mnt/Crs got underway pretty nicely as I quickly picked up a Lookout and Market Square, used them to gain a gold, and was able to activate MLamp and buy a Wharf pretty quickly and Wish my way into a 2nd Wharf and 2 more Golds. MktSq and Lkt helped me trim down a bit more and get a 4th Gold and I just walked that home (there was no splitter of any sort). It seems to me that such an opening would be very nice on most boards.

I fail to see how getting rid of Cursed Gold to replace it with an actual Curse is good. As always with Mint, its strength is getting rid of Coppers, and Cursed Gold allows you to do that earlier at the cost of a Curse... and a Mint. Now you have a deck of three Estates, a Curse, a Mint, and at least two Coppers. Although in this case Cursed Gold was worse than Copper, as a hand of five Copper can buy Mint just as well without getting a Curse. Or perhaps you drew CG together with 3 Coppers. Well, now your deck is still mostly junk. I guess you can buy Mint with a Cg/C/C opening, but honestly, I'd rather just have a trasher that helps me get rid of the non-money junk.

The real interaction here seems to be centered around Mint, Market Square and Lookout. Similar to, let's say, Mint, Tunnel and uh, Navigator.

You may be right - but I think you're interpreting my understanding of the benefit slightly wrong. I'm not saying Mint is a great way to trash CG, but that CG means you're going to be able to open Mint, and thus trash coppers, in any opening (though I'm not sure you'd want to on 5C vs CG/C/3E unless there's, say, Remake). It may well be that this is only normally useful on CG/3C/E (and that it only worked well for me on CG/2C/2E because of the Lookout/Msq side of things), but, even then, that's a huge improvement on only being able to do it on 5C and needing a convenient $2 on the board to boot, which is the standard Mint opening situation.
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faust

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1337 on: July 13, 2018, 10:56:55 am »
+1

Mint + Pooka / Cursed Gold

A mint opening will always be possible with CG, and in all but the CG/C/3E + 5C situations, it will take out your CG before the 1st shuffle at the cost of gaining just one Curse. There might be boards where this isn't what you want to do, but I don't think there will be that many of them. I had the CG/C/MLamp/2E + 4C/E opening split and opened Mnt/Slv. A deck of 3E/3C/MLamp/Slv/Mnt/Crs got underway pretty nicely as I quickly picked up a Lookout and Market Square, used them to gain a gold, and was able to activate MLamp and buy a Wharf pretty quickly and Wish my way into a 2nd Wharf and 2 more Golds. MktSq and Lkt helped me trim down a bit more and get a 4th Gold and I just walked that home (there was no splitter of any sort). It seems to me that such an opening would be very nice on most boards.

I fail to see how getting rid of Cursed Gold to replace it with an actual Curse is good. As always with Mint, its strength is getting rid of Coppers, and Cursed Gold allows you to do that earlier at the cost of a Curse... and a Mint. Now you have a deck of three Estates, a Curse, a Mint, and at least two Coppers. Although in this case Cursed Gold was worse than Copper, as a hand of five Copper can buy Mint just as well without getting a Curse. Or perhaps you drew CG together with 3 Coppers. Well, now your deck is still mostly junk. I guess you can buy Mint with a Cg/C/C opening, but honestly, I'd rather just have a trasher that helps me get rid of the non-money junk.

The real interaction here seems to be centered around Mint, Market Square and Lookout. Similar to, let's say, Mint, Tunnel and uh, Navigator.

You may be right - but I think you're interpreting my understanding of the benefit slightly wrong. I'm not saying Mint is a great way to trash CG, but that CG means you're going to be able to open Mint, and thus trash coppers, in any opening (though I'm not sure you'd want to on 5C vs CG/C/3E unless there's, say, Remake). It may well be that this is only normally useful on CG/3C/E (and that it only worked well for me on CG/2C/2E because of the Lookout/Msq side of things), but, even then, that's a huge improvement on only being able to do it on 5C and needing a convenient $2 on the board to boot, which is the standard Mint opening situation.
Another problem is that Cursed Gold boards always have Pooka, i.e. a good use for your Coppers, which makes Mint even less attractive.
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aku_chi

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1338 on: July 26, 2018, 12:03:37 am »
+25

Counting House + Night Watchman

The second best Counting House synergy!  Similar in principal to Counting House + Scouting Party, but faster and more reliable, the goal is to alternate playing your two Counting Houses with 100% consistency.  This combo can consistently empty the Province pile by turn 14.

Your three goals, by turn 7:
  • Have the following deck: Counting House x2, Night Watchman x2, Copper x8, Estates (or Shelters) x3, one other card.  The other card could be a ninth Copper, a Silver, an Heirloom, or (if you're lucky) a Duchy.
  • Have the following hand: Counting House x1, Night Watchman x1, at least one Copper (the important part here is to have 4+ non-Copper cards in your deck or discard).
  • Be able to generate $8.  This is usually accomplished by having all Coppers in your hand or discard pile.
From this point on, you can buy Province, play Night Watchman, discard to a 5-card deck that includes your other Counting House and Night Watchman, and do the same thing over again.  Absent attacks, this should be 100% reliable through 7 Provinces.  For the 8th Province, you can discard your Night Watchman to find your Counting House.

Getting to this state by turn 7 is easier done than said!  Sometimes, you'll get unlucky and your Counting Houses or Night Watchmen will stick together, or maybe you'll have a difficult time affording your second Counting House, but these usually only set you back one turn.

Your early buys need to depend on your opening split:
  • /: This the best case.  Buy Copper turn 1, then Night Watchman turn 2, to set up on turn 3, which you should use to buy your first Counting House.  If all goes well, you might even be set up by turn 6.  However, you don't have enough non-Copper cards to take a Province while setting up your next turn; grab fewer Coppers with Counting House and buy a Duchy instead.
  • /: Buy Silver on turn 1, Night Watchman on turn 2 to set up on turn 3, which you should use to buy your first Counting House.  You still need to buy a Copper at some point, but there's no rush.  You can even buy it on turn 6 after you've set up offsetting Counting Houses; just be careful not to grab all Coppers with your Counting House and so leave yourself with fewer than 5 cards in your deck.
  • / or /: Open with Counting House and Copper.  Often, you can buy a Night Watchman on turn 3 and guarantee your second Counting House purchase on turn 4.

Attacks
Any attack that can trigger a shuffle (plus Pillage) kill the combo dead.  Most handsize attacks and junking attacks merely decrease reliability; so don't expect to get all eight Provinces in a row in the face of these attacks.  Against Enchantress, you can protect yourself by buying a couple dummy actions (ideally cantrips) to protect your Counting House plays.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 12:20:27 am by aku_chi »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1339 on: July 26, 2018, 12:58:07 am »
0

Counting House + Night Watchman

This is beyond neat and certainly more than potentially useful!
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1340 on: July 26, 2018, 06:56:16 am »
0

Kudos for finding that one! I'm going to have to try it out.
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aku_chi

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1341 on: July 26, 2018, 09:08:20 am »
0

Kudos for finding that one! I'm going to have to try it out.

Thanks, but I didn't discover the synergy; I just tried to optimize it and wrote it down.  Counting House + Night Watchman was first mentioned on Discord by Dan (not Dan Brooks) on 11/22/2017, and Emil and Dan Brooks validated there was something to it.  It's worth noting, this strategy plays very differently than most Dominion games, and counter to many of your intuitions, so it's worth practicing if you want to be able to execute properly when it comes up.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1342 on: July 26, 2018, 09:22:51 am »
0

Wow, that's pretty legit.

It's worth noting, this strategy plays very differently than most Dominion games, and counter to many of your intuitions, so it's worth practicing if you want to be able to execute properly when it comes up.

I feel the same way about Hermit/Market Square, and never remember how to do it properly.  Unlike H/MS, though, this seems like it'd do fine in a mirror.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1343 on: July 29, 2018, 06:30:51 pm »
+2

By itself, Gear money is pretty okay.  But, Gear money really appreciates trashing Estates and gaining extra Silvers without losing tempo.  It shouldn't be surprising that Gear money's strongest supports do both!

Gear + Trade (requires / opening)

The synergy here is pretty clear: Gear draw and saving helps set up Trade turns that turn your Estates (and a Copper) into Silvers.  But I was shocked at just how fast this strategy was.

Step 1: Open Gear x2.
Step 2: Buy a third Gear and execute a Trade on two Estates, followed by a Trade on an Estate and a Copper.  With decent draws (a Gear on turn 3 is usually enough), you can accomplish this by turn 5!  If your turn 4 is less fortunate, keep saving for the Trade and buy a Silver.
--- At this point, your deck is 3 Gears, 4-5 Silver, and 6 Copper ---
Step 3: If your opponent is racing for Provinces (and you were fortunate to get double Trade by turn 5), you can start Provincing as early as turn 6 and almost always grab 4 Provinces by turn 9!  This is super fast and reliable.  After this point, your green will gunk up the works, but you should be able to buy Duchies or save up for the fifth Province as required.  On the other hand, if you need to grab 6 Provinces (usually against an enginey strategy), you should start Provincing on turn 7 at the earliest.  If you've already Traded your Estates by turn 5, I recommend buying a Gold on turn 6.  You could Trade Coppers, but I think it's better to save the extra Copper for the next turn.  You might want to grab another Gold later on if you start to falter.  Depending on your draws, you can get 6 Provinces by turn 12-14, which is a very tough pace to beat.  You can't really get 8 Provinces in a reasonable amount of time, so I wouldn't recommend this in the presence of strong Alt VP.

Gear + Transmogrify (requires / opening and Estates!)

Transmogrify does three things that Gear money appreciates:
  • Removes Estates
  • Adds Silvers
  • Mills Provinces
And Gear helps put the Estates and Provinces into your starting hand for Transmogrify.  The result is a fast and very robust money strategy:

Step 1: Open Gear + Transmogrify.
Step 2: If you see Transmogrify on turn 3, do your happy dance.  Either way, get two more Gears and then Silvers with your sub-$6 buys/gains.  If you have Transmogrify on the mat, you might want to buy a Silver over a Gear (with the expectation to upgrade an Estate into a Gear on the next turn).  Once you have two Golds, you'll be ready to start Provincing.  You probably won't have trashed all of your Estates by this point - this is fine, just trash them when you have the opportunity.
Step 3: Do the Gear thing, where you exactly buy Province each turn and set aside the money you don't need.  If you get the opportunity, use your Transmogrify to trash Province into Province.  This strategy has a little more variance than the Trade one, mostly due to how often Transmogrify misses your shuffles.  Still, it's pretty fast in the worst case and scary fast in the best case.

4 Provinces, Turn 10-12, ~24-27 VP
6 Provinces, Turn 12-16, ~30-39 VP
8 Provinces, Turn 14-18, ~42-55 VP
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 06:33:05 pm by aku_chi »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1344 on: July 30, 2018, 04:59:30 am »
0

Gear/Trade might be the fastest BM option out there. I happened to stumble upon it recently:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15455.msg755789#msg755789
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aku_chi

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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1345 on: July 30, 2018, 08:44:51 am »
0

Gear/Trade might be the fastest BM option out there. I happened to stumble upon it recently:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15455.msg755789#msg755789

I forgot about that post (despite upvoting it).  When it comes to 2-card money strategies, Gear + Trade is only behind Donate + Market Square (if that counts) and Donate + Windfall, I believe.  However, it's possibly more likely that there's something on board to compete with those monolithic Donate strategies (still unlikely).  I was also able to get 4 Provinces in 9 turns with Envoy + Trade once, but it's less reliable and less elegant.
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Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions
« Reply #1346 on: July 30, 2018, 01:29:19 pm »
0

Gear/Trade might be the fastest BM option out there. I happened to stumble upon it recently:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15455.msg755789#msg755789

I forgot about that post (despite upvoting it).  When it comes to 2-card money strategies, Gear + Trade is only behind Donate + Market Square (if that counts) and Donate + Windfall, I believe.  However, it's possibly more likely that there's something on board to compete with those monolithic Donate strategies (still unlikely).  I was also able to get 4 Provinces in 9 turns with Envoy + Trade once, but it's less reliable and less elegant.

What do you deny on your opponent's Envoy in that situation? Preference for Estates then Coppers?
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