Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All

Author Topic: Most skilled card in Dominion?  (Read 16939 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1487
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2015, 05:06:57 am »
0

So combos like Trader/Feodum, Hermit/MS, Ironworks/Gardens, etc. would qualify in my opinion, but positive interactions such as Goons/Watchtower or Horse Traders/Duke that used to get featured articles on the front page don't seem to be worth mentioning.

I think HT/Duke was worth it at this time as it more or less introduced the concept of the slog for most of us.  Not as explicit as in WW later article series, but for me it was a huge boost in understanding the game.

:e and is illustration for the slog it should also be published today, if it wouldn't exist.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 05:11:07 am by DStu »
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1745
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2015, 10:48:42 am »
+4

Based on the discussion in the other board, I am sure I am in the minority (at least of those speaking up), but I don't think the "combo" has to be so strong to be featured in a *short* article.  Maybe combo is just too strong of a word, but I think that pointing out things like Goons/Watchtower and Horse Traders/Duke are very useful for someone who is learning the game. Perhaps "interesting interaction" articles would sound more palatable.

When I was first playing on isotropic and found the strategy blog I think the combo threads were really good for helping me think about cards in different ways. General ideas like Watchtower can be used to trash things other than junk your opponent gave you, or Horse Traders can be good if you want tons of $5 cards are promoted by those combo articles and I think there is value there.

Throwaway_bicycling

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +137
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2015, 11:25:53 am »
0


But I think you have to be pretty highly skilled to control the implied chain reaction and do something like this:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150407/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1428458758346.txt

Yes, that's just your ordinary "buy 7 Provinces in two turns" plan. (Note: Mic Q also streamed this game, and pointed out some sloppy play on his part...wish I could be so sloppy.)

This is flattering, but trust me, it's not that hard to do. And it's definitely not original to me in any way. You can find a post in these very forums where I say something like "Apprentice / Market Square can't be fast enough without other trashing" and then AI says something like "Nope, you're wrong" (in a nice way probably) and so I played some solitaire games and I'm like "I'm a moron, Apprentice / MS works without support." And the rest is just practicing it once or twice.

Don't buy into the myth of the genius Dominion player, remember we're all morons.

Fair enough. That's an inspirational quote. I actually didn't say you were a genius here (jsh357 in his Reddit persona has been trying to get me not say or think things like that). But I do maintain the point about "skill". Skill is something you develop with practice and experience, which certainly looks like what you did here.

Quote from: Mic Qsenoch
Here are some things about Apprentice / MS (which I have been thinking about a bit because I played it in the game above, and WW-AdamH played it in their match)
- Don't activate Market Squares too early in the game, you only want early Golds if you are struggling to buy a few Apprentices. Otherwise just play the Market Squares so that you can cycle to your Apprentices faster, the most important thing is getting thin. This is also true of say Chapel/MS.
- Once your chain is set up, don't auto-activate MS. You won't cost yourself Gold gains unless one of your Apprentice plays is going to overdraw the deck. If you are going to play multiple Apprentices anyway, it's okay to wait to activate until right before a shuffle. By keeping the MS in hand you give yourself an out (playing them as cantrips for a few more cards) in case you haven't yet managed to draw your next Gold/Apprentice pair.
- Don't assume you need to win the MS split. You can see in the log above that 4 works just fine. You don't want to end up with 2-3 probably, but you don't need to rush to buy 6 of them. There might be other $3 cards which help you play Apprentice more often (like Sage or Warehouse). Of course you might opportunistically take the split 7-3 (or 8-2) in denial if the opportunity presents itself, but that seems unlikely.

So here is an interesting comparison kingdom somebody just (coincidentally) posted on the Reddit /r/dominion subreddit:

Pawn, Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Market Square, Rats, Jack of All Trades, Wandering Minstrel, Apprentice, Cultist, Hunting Grounds,

Osiris1316 got destroyed by a pedestrian kind of engine that he says featured "pawn, a few minstrels, three cultists, a market square, a couple jacks, and a couple hunting grounds and silvers" (but was playing Rats + Market Square, apparently; that obviously needs some help). Anyway, I usually just pounce on Scrying Pool, but that actually seems a bit slow here if your opponent is tossing Ruins at you and not exactly on point in a kingdom where you have to use actual money to buy stuff. So I would have been tempted to open Rats/Silver or JoAT/Market Square and transition into Apprentice/Market Square, but maybe that doesn't clear Ruins quickly enough (maybe just buy a Cultist and then do the Cultist Pinata thing when Ruins are out?). Is there a sense at what point junking takes Apprentice/Market Square off the table? Unfortunately, the junking here comes from Cultist, which might be kind of worst case.

Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8158
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9526
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2015, 11:41:55 am »
+1

Based on the discussion in the other board, I am sure I am in the minority (at least of those speaking up), but I don't think the "combo" has to be so strong to be featured in a *short* article.  Maybe combo is just too strong of a word, but I think that pointing out things like Goons/Watchtower and Horse Traders/Duke are very useful for someone who is learning the game. Perhaps "interesting interaction" articles would sound more palatable.

When I was first playing on isotropic and found the strategy blog I think the combo threads were really good for helping me think about cards in different ways. General ideas like Watchtower can be used to trash things other than junk your opponent gave you, or Horse Traders can be good if you want tons of $5 cards are promoted by those combo articles and I think there is value there.

This is why I added this to the start of the Combo article on the wiki:

Quote
A combo can refer to two things:

1) Two or more cards with a particular synergy
2) A cohesive strategy that relies only on two (sometimes three) cards

The first can act as a supplement or centerpiece to a larger strategy, and is typically the broader category. But when talking about a combo deck, it is the second that is being referred to.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2015, 02:12:34 pm »
0

Based on the discussion in the other board, I am sure I am in the minority (at least of those speaking up), but I don't think the "combo" has to be so strong to be featured in a *short* article.  Maybe combo is just too strong of a word, but I think that pointing out things like Goons/Watchtower and Horse Traders/Duke are very useful for someone who is learning the game. Perhaps "interesting interaction" articles would sound more palatable.

In the case of interesting interactions, I think the best way to approach that is to not focus on a single interaction but rather a class of interactions. There are far too many possible synergies between cards in Dominion, and players don't improve at the game through memorizing every single possible interaction - they have to be able to quickly evaluate combinations that they've never before seen.

Another problem with rattling off "combos" that are weak on the spectrum of card interactions is that they lead novice players to misjudge their strength. HT/Duke is great in the absence of an engine, but decent engines will beat it.

Contrast this to a true combo like Hermit/MS, where if you don't know how to play the mirror, you will lose almost every time.

EDIT: I should point out that a substantial number of Combo of the Day articles are combos that I've never, ever used to my advantage, e.g., Golem/Counting House, Ambassador/Pirate Ship, Caravan/Vault, etc.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 02:20:12 pm by dondon151 »
Logged

pubby

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 285
  • Respect: +450
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2015, 04:41:34 pm »
0

So here is an interesting comparison kingdom somebody just (coincidentally) posted on the Reddit /r/dominion subreddit:

Pawn, Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Market Square, Rats, Jack of All Trades, Wandering Minstrel, Apprentice, Cultist, Hunting Grounds,

Osiris1316 got destroyed by a pedestrian kind of engine that he says featured "pawn, a few minstrels, three cultists, a market square, a couple jacks, and a couple hunting grounds and silvers" (but was playing Rats + Market Square, apparently; that obviously needs some help). Anyway, I usually just pounce on Scrying Pool, but that actually seems a bit slow here if your opponent is tossing Ruins at you and not exactly on point in a kingdom where you have to use actual money to buy stuff. So I would have been tempted to open Rats/Silver or JoAT/Market Square and transition into Apprentice/Market Square, but maybe that doesn't clear Ruins quickly enough (maybe just buy a Cultist and then do the Cultist Pinata thing when Ruins are out?). Is there a sense at what point junking takes Apprentice/Market Square off the table? Unfortunately, the junking here comes from Cultist, which might be kind of worst case.
Scrying pool worked ok for me.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150412/log.539cc5ebe4b09ac4e56c3e3d.1428869928917.txt

I think cultist and jack are completely skippable here.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 04:55:42 pm by pubby »
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2015, 05:17:17 pm »
0

I'm not even sure that you want SP at all in that kingdom. Apprentice/MS is super strong and it gets even stronger with Rats.
Logged

pubby

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 285
  • Respect: +450
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2015, 06:31:39 pm »
+1

Quote
I'm not even sure that you want SP at all in that kingdom. Apprentice/MS is super strong and it gets even stronger with Rats.

I played it a bit more. It seems like if you open rats/silver and buy an Apprentice on turn 3/4 then you don't  need Scrying Pool at all. If you can't buy apprentice on turn 3/4 then you should buy a potion or else you'll get overrun with rats.
Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2116
  • Respect: +2641
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2015, 06:52:08 pm »
+1

I think the correct open on that board is Rats/Silver or Rats/MS . If you do Rats/MS, discard MS for the 1st gold as soon as possible so that you can buy Apprentice, but don't discard it after that because you only need the one. Prioritize MS over Rats, once you get an Apprentice you can go to town on Apprentice-Rats and then transition into the plain Apprentice-MS game.

The reason I like Rats/Silver more is because you definitely want to hit $5 as soon as you can for the first Apprentice. Apprentice-Rats is just so ridiculously snowballing, and whoever gets that going first should be able to win pretty easily.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

c4master

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2015, 03:24:34 pm »
0

I will always remember Adams match against AI, where AI pulled off this crazy Procession-engine on a board that looked so terribly weak to me. It really showed me that Procession is a monster on most boards. Even knowing this, I still can't play with it. Lately, someone in the chat said: "It's never too early for a Procession." He's probably even right, but I'm just so bad with that specific card.



I think, that's the game I meant, but I can't see any procession here. Have I become so old forgetful?
Logged

AJP82

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2015, 07:52:16 pm »
0

Everything with Graverobber and/or Rogue, especially Graverobber. I think I'm quite adept at finding combos in almost any other kingdom, but every kingdom in which those make an appearance scares the crap out of me.

I agree with Black Market, in the sense of "knowing when to get or not get it." It can be a huge time sink and very swingy. When I first got it, I used to mess up using it to try and get cards like Witch or Chapel that I didn't realize lose a huge amount of their impact if you get them more than a few shuffles into the game. It breaks fairgrounds too, and I'm consistently surprised that people at my level (variably Isotropish level 25-31) never seem to go for FGs until I do in those games. FG itself, for that matter... figuring out whether it's worth trying to get it up to 6 or 8 without BM.

Bridge, not in the sense of "knowing when to get or not get it," but in the sense of "knowing which kingdoms with Bridge can make some cards even more OP" (Goons + actions + draw, especially) and how to best reach that before the other player.

In a sense, Saboteur and Pirate Ship, because one of my standards for whether I'm playing against a beginner or a skilled player is whether they actually buy either of those (since they always seem to attract beginners until they learn how much they suck). This has even on occasion led me to let my guard down too much and lose games by simply messing around instead of actually trying, and I even have a mental blinder of sorts on boards where Saboteur is obviously good, such as with Highways. I seem to have one such blinder towards "useless" cards in almost every game, such as double-resource age 2 cards in Seven Wonders, Diplomat in Catan: C&K, or Drama and anything remotely related to it in Through The Ages.
Logged

ephesos

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ephesos
  • Respect: +266
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2015, 12:37:17 am »
0

I seem to have one such blinder towards "useless" cards in almost every game, such as double-resource age 2 cards in Seven Wonders...
Useless? Age 2 resource cards are pretty much the only way Giza B can get to level 4 of their wonder, and many others have off-wonder triple costs that are really hard to fill without them(Rhodes, Hali, Babylon). Like, if you didn't get lucky and open Caravansery, and you want to finish your wonder, you pretty much need one of these.

Burying the appropriate double resource is one of the critical strategies in 3 player: if you hit the double brick or double stone, and Giza isn't prepared with Age 1 resources, you can just kill their wonder and deny them all those points. Same goes for Rhodes, Hali, and Babylon; seeing Caravansery go down one turn and a wonder built the next often means you're not finishing your wonder ever and it's time to figure out something else.

Wonder aside, they're really good for filling in expensive gaps e.g. resources your trading post neighbor doesn't have, and more importantly, resources you don't have any access to. If you don't have a play better than 2 points, it's probably worth it to just go for the double resource and not pay your opponents in Age 3.

In addition, science cards in Age 3 tend to have double resource costs; Age 2 science turns without obvious science to play are about predicting what gaps in the chain you'll have and keeping your science options open, since you'll almost never have enough cash around to pay out for an Age 3 jump, if your opponents know you need it and are denying you. Unless, of course, you're Ephesos. But then you've pretty much won anyway through sheer awesomeness :).
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9149
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2015, 02:43:58 am »
0

Yeah, I was going to say that the double resource cards can be pretty good.  That said, I usually try to get away with as few brown and grey cards as possible unless I really can't (like with Giza).  Ephesos is my favourite wonder also.

Also, IIRC, I considered Diplomat to be one of the better politics cards in Catan: C+K.  Granted, I usually went science whenever possible just for the chance at Inventor or Alchemist.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2933
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2441
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2015, 11:00:29 pm »
0

For me the most skilled cards are the ones that can lead to unexpected three-pile endings. I would put procession, stone mason, Upgrade, fortress, develop as the main culprits. There is also Death Cart. But, I usually know when to buy those for a three-pile ending, but it seems a card people often overlook, so maybe it belongs on the list as well. If you can score points with virtual coins or VP tokens, rats can also lead to a surprise three-pile ending.

Edit: Or maybe it is not so much about the cards that lead to three-pile endings, but knowing how to execute surprise three-pile endings and also how to anticipate them. That is probably one of the highest skill Dominion talents to have, I think. Well, I'm just saying that because it is not something I have not mastered and something I have not seen many people at my skill level or even higher master. I am level 35ish, and I see people in the 40's who can't pull off the surprise pile endings. I don't mean when it's obvious, but when you have crazy interactions like procession or Stone mason shenanigans going on.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 11:04:17 pm by Beyond Awesome »
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2802
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3831
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2015, 07:53:45 am »
0

I think, that's the game I meant, but I can't see any procession here. Have I become so old forgetful?

Maybe you're thinking of this game too? It's in the same match...

Logged
I respond to PMs.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2015, 02:48:00 pm »
+3

Procession, without a doubt.

I +1'd this back in March when brokoli posted it, but I'm going to necro this thread to vehemently agree that, yes, Procession is the most skill-intensive card in Dominion.
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5586
  • Respect: +3593
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2015, 08:01:47 pm »
0

Procession, without a doubt.

I +1'd this back in March when brokoli posted it, but I'm going to necro this thread to vehemently agree that, yes, Procession is the most skill-intensive card in Dominion.

I can think of no other card that is harder to use but can pay off. Maybe there's an Adventures card though.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:36:22 pm by Seprix »
Logged
3/4ths retired

rrenaud

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 987
  • Uncivilized Barbarian of Statistics
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
    • CouncilRoom
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2015, 10:42:53 pm »
+1

* There is no good definition here, so it's just opinions.

You give up too easy. 

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg47781#msg47781
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5586
  • Respect: +3593
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2015, 11:12:22 pm »
0

* There is no good definition here, so it's just opinions.

You give up too easy. 

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg47781#msg47781

We need updates, both now and when Adventures comes out.
Logged
3/4ths retired

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2933
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2441
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2015, 11:21:20 pm »
+2

Procession, without a doubt.

I +1'd this back in March when brokoli posted it, but I'm going to necro this thread to vehemently agree that, yes, Procession is the most skill-intensive card in Dominion.

I agree. I often have a hard time figuring out the best use for that card. I have been playing around with it more and realize it's actually pretty amazing at also emptying out piles aside from being a Throne variant.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All
 

Page created in 0.095 seconds with 22 queries.