Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Most skilled card in Dominion?  (Read 16945 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Heisenberg

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 59
  • I am the one who knocks!
  • Respect: +31
    • View Profile
Most skilled card in Dominion?
« on: March 18, 2015, 08:49:52 pm »
+1

During a recent Twitch stream Stef mentioned that Black market is a highly skilled card.  This got me thinking...What is the most skilled card in Dominion?...or perhaps the top 5 skilled card in Dominion?  This can be kingdom dependent, so what cards require the most skill to implement with maximum return and are relevant across a broad range of kingdoms.

This link can be helpful in perhaps identifying some weak points to work on pertaining to certain cards you have a low winning percentage with:

http://www.2pih.com/cardAnalyzer.php

Pardon me for any induced uncertainty by this question.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8158
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9528
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2015, 09:01:10 pm »
+1

The phrase is "high-skill".

That said, definitely cards that require decisions, particularly deck-tracking decisions or decisions your opponents make.  So cards like Contraband, Advisor, Journeyman, Wishing Well.  Being a high-skill card doesn't necessarily make a card *good*, just makes it difficult to play optimally.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1567
  • Respect: +4378
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2015, 09:13:52 pm »
+1

* There is no good definition here, so it's just opinions.
* "high-skill kingdoms" makes more sense to me then "high-skill cards"

Black Market, Develop, Nobles, Knights, Stonemason
Wishing Well, Advisor, Upgrade, Duke, Fairgrounds, Forager

dang I really can't choose just 5.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2573
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4327
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 09:24:13 pm »
+5

The most skill-based card is probably one in the new set, but based on what we have, these jump to mind.  This is all my opinion and I have no stats backing any of this up.

Cards that require a tradeoff for drawing: Cellar, Warehouse, Storeroom
New players buy these blindly and trigger terrible reshuffles with them.  I wouldn't say they are high on the list, but they are up there.

Remodel class: Remodel, Upgrade, Develop, Graverobber, Expand, Forge, Butcher
It requires some knowledge of the game to understand when and why to use these, especially like when you want to trash Copper over a more expensive thing or when you want to upgrade a good card instead of a bad one.

Autoplay cards: Throne Room, Golem, King's Court, Procession
Chaining these can get pretty complicated, and understanding what order to play cards in chains and why can be very important.

Cards that care about cards on top of the deck: Wishing Well, Lookout, Scrying Pool, Mystic, Doctor, Journeyman
These require tracking to use effectively, and tracking is a skill you develop with experience.

Duke, Fairgrounds - In my experience, newer players have no clue when to go for this and it's often very powerful.

Tribute - Tribute engines are tricky but totally viable.

Ambassador - Maybe the most skill intensive card in the currently released sets.  If you don't understand Ambassador, you will probably lose if you ignore it.

Cards that reorder your deck - Navigator, Apothecary, Cartographer, Scavenger, Scheme
You can set up neat turns, but thinking that far ahead isn't the first thing most people do in a game.

Possession - Totally transforms a lot of games, and there are several nasty tricks you need to learn to get good with this, including how to play against it, which almost requires reading an article on the subject to begin comprehending.

Watchtower - Not the most complex card, but it has so many interactions to learn that it's probably up there.

Bishop - The most misplayed card in Dominion.

Cards you need to buy under a proper condition: Mint, Grand Market, Doctor
Grand Market is probably the biggest game changer, but all of these can require setup turns before pulling the trigger, and the better you are at the game the more easily you'll see how to get there.

Horn of Plenty - One of the more elaborate strategies to learn is the HoP deck.

Knights

Hermit - It's definitely one of the most complicated cards. You have to know how long you want one in your deck, when to go for Madmen, when to USE the Madmen, etc.

Games that shorten the game: Rebuild, Stonemason
Rebuild obviously is its own metagame for the most part, but Stonemason is right up there in the pile-blowing bananza.

Cards that let your opponent choose something: Advisor, Envoy, Contraband
They're all useful under the right circumstances, but playing them blindly is often a terrible plan.

Black Market - Read Stef's article

Governor - One of the most centralizing cards in the game.  You have to learn how to play with it and against it, what risks you can take in a Governor game, and so on.  Often you have to be careful about leaving as many as 4 Provinces in the supply.

Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum - Knowing when you should buy Treasure and when you shouldn't is a big deal, and it only becomes a bigger concern as you play higher and higher skill games.

My vote for the most skill-intensive card overall is Stonemason.  It's ridiculously powerful, but only if you know what you're doing, and there's a lot to think about when it's on the board.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 09:27:14 pm by jsh357 »
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3375
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2636
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2015, 09:33:36 pm »
0

I do think that the absolute most skilled card is truly uncertain.  We'll never know, and it will keep on shifting with every new card made.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

pubby

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 285
  • Respect: +450
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 09:45:14 pm »
0

Everything jsh said, but also Crossroads, Rats, and Native Village.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2476
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 09:56:20 pm »
+1

Ambassador.
Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2116
  • Respect: +2642
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 10:34:26 pm »
0

From hardest to play to easiest: Develop, Black Market, Knights, Advisor, Ambassador

Stonemason, Herald as honorable mention.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4069
  • Respect: +2608
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 10:37:38 pm »
0

Silver is a good card for mid ranked players to understand, potion too.

Possession is a card that requires specific skills that are not shared with other cards. Does that make it more skilled or not?
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8158
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9528
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 11:00:42 pm »
+1

One thing to notice is that often cards that are labeled as "weak" are simply narrow/skill-intensive.  Chancellor, Explorer, Counting House, Develop, can all be quite useful, even strong, if you know how to use them.  Similarly, cards that are "strong" most often simply require less (or even no) skill to use.  Mountebank and Goons (apart from knowing when to Copper buy) come to mind.

Of course, Scout actually is weak.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1112
  • Respect: +773
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 08:07:47 am »
+5

Procession, without a doubt.
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1704
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 09:35:53 am »
0

The most skilled card is the card you least expect it to be (so it's none of the cards mentioned, and it can't be mentioned).
Logged

iguanaiguana

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • Respect: +1042
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 10:05:00 am »
+1

I think a lot of the alt vp cards tend to add complexity and therefore can be played skillfully. Fairgrounds stands out, but also vineyard and silk road, which both require deck tracking, and the potion cost for vineyard adds a lot of complexity to that card. Duke seems simpler, and gardens simpler still. But if multiples of these cards show up on one board and they also have support, then i'm often at a loss for what to do.
Logged
You are my favorite reptile.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.
All iguanas are equal. But some iguanas are more equal than others.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 10:33:33 am »
+5

The most skilled card is the card you least expect it to be (so it's none of the cards mentioned, and it can't be mentioned).

Is it Moat?
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

nate_w

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Respect: +115
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2015, 06:59:00 pm »
0


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2621
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3307
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2015, 07:05:40 pm »
0

Procession and Stonemason come to mind first. Perhaps also Rats and Graverobber.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2476
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2015, 07:08:34 pm »
+1


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Ha, yeah right. Scout will always be awful, no matter how much support.
Logged

nate_w

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Respect: +115
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2015, 07:18:39 pm »
0


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Ha, yeah right. Scout will always be awful, no matter how much support.

You do agree though that on a board with say, Great Hall, Ironworks, and the card I described (call it Wishing Great Hall),  you would probably want double ironworks and after a few turns of gaining obviously pick up a scout, right?.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8158
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9528
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2015, 07:37:33 pm »
0

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2015, 07:40:20 pm »
+3

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.

Yeah, then it would be almost as good as Vagrant.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 745
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 07:43:40 pm »
+1

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.

Scout would be a good card with +1 Card added.
Logged

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2573
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4327
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 07:51:34 pm »
+9

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2015, 07:58:43 pm »
+11

Scout might be too strong with +1 Card added. No joke.
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1971
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2015, 08:03:08 pm »
0

+1 card scout would be on par with Cartographer, so it would probably be too strong for $4
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9149
    • View Profile
Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2015, 08:11:20 pm »
+4

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

If you get +1 Card before the regular effects, most draw-to-X cards wouldn't be improved much.  Library is actually weakened slightly in most cases (if top card is an action, you can't choose to set it aside).  JoaT too (lose filtering option on the card you draw).  The small bonus is that you still get to draw a card when you are already at X or more cards in hand.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 08:12:47 pm by eHalcyon »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.099 seconds with 22 queries.