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Heisenberg

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Most skilled card in Dominion?
« on: March 18, 2015, 08:49:52 pm »
+1

During a recent Twitch stream Stef mentioned that Black market is a highly skilled card.  This got me thinking...What is the most skilled card in Dominion?...or perhaps the top 5 skilled card in Dominion?  This can be kingdom dependent, so what cards require the most skill to implement with maximum return and are relevant across a broad range of kingdoms.

This link can be helpful in perhaps identifying some weak points to work on pertaining to certain cards you have a low winning percentage with:

http://www.2pih.com/cardAnalyzer.php

Pardon me for any induced uncertainty by this question.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2015, 09:01:10 pm »
+1

The phrase is "high-skill".

That said, definitely cards that require decisions, particularly deck-tracking decisions or decisions your opponents make.  So cards like Contraband, Advisor, Journeyman, Wishing Well.  Being a high-skill card doesn't necessarily make a card *good*, just makes it difficult to play optimally.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2015, 09:13:52 pm »
+1

* There is no good definition here, so it's just opinions.
* "high-skill kingdoms" makes more sense to me then "high-skill cards"

Black Market, Develop, Nobles, Knights, Stonemason
Wishing Well, Advisor, Upgrade, Duke, Fairgrounds, Forager

dang I really can't choose just 5.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 09:24:13 pm »
+5

The most skill-based card is probably one in the new set, but based on what we have, these jump to mind.  This is all my opinion and I have no stats backing any of this up.

Cards that require a tradeoff for drawing: Cellar, Warehouse, Storeroom
New players buy these blindly and trigger terrible reshuffles with them.  I wouldn't say they are high on the list, but they are up there.

Remodel class: Remodel, Upgrade, Develop, Graverobber, Expand, Forge, Butcher
It requires some knowledge of the game to understand when and why to use these, especially like when you want to trash Copper over a more expensive thing or when you want to upgrade a good card instead of a bad one.

Autoplay cards: Throne Room, Golem, King's Court, Procession
Chaining these can get pretty complicated, and understanding what order to play cards in chains and why can be very important.

Cards that care about cards on top of the deck: Wishing Well, Lookout, Scrying Pool, Mystic, Doctor, Journeyman
These require tracking to use effectively, and tracking is a skill you develop with experience.

Duke, Fairgrounds - In my experience, newer players have no clue when to go for this and it's often very powerful.

Tribute - Tribute engines are tricky but totally viable.

Ambassador - Maybe the most skill intensive card in the currently released sets.  If you don't understand Ambassador, you will probably lose if you ignore it.

Cards that reorder your deck - Navigator, Apothecary, Cartographer, Scavenger, Scheme
You can set up neat turns, but thinking that far ahead isn't the first thing most people do in a game.

Possession - Totally transforms a lot of games, and there are several nasty tricks you need to learn to get good with this, including how to play against it, which almost requires reading an article on the subject to begin comprehending.

Watchtower - Not the most complex card, but it has so many interactions to learn that it's probably up there.

Bishop - The most misplayed card in Dominion.

Cards you need to buy under a proper condition: Mint, Grand Market, Doctor
Grand Market is probably the biggest game changer, but all of these can require setup turns before pulling the trigger, and the better you are at the game the more easily you'll see how to get there.

Horn of Plenty - One of the more elaborate strategies to learn is the HoP deck.

Knights

Hermit - It's definitely one of the most complicated cards. You have to know how long you want one in your deck, when to go for Madmen, when to USE the Madmen, etc.

Games that shorten the game: Rebuild, Stonemason
Rebuild obviously is its own metagame for the most part, but Stonemason is right up there in the pile-blowing bananza.

Cards that let your opponent choose something: Advisor, Envoy, Contraband
They're all useful under the right circumstances, but playing them blindly is often a terrible plan.

Black Market - Read Stef's article

Governor - One of the most centralizing cards in the game.  You have to learn how to play with it and against it, what risks you can take in a Governor game, and so on.  Often you have to be careful about leaving as many as 4 Provinces in the supply.

Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum - Knowing when you should buy Treasure and when you shouldn't is a big deal, and it only becomes a bigger concern as you play higher and higher skill games.

My vote for the most skill-intensive card overall is Stonemason.  It's ridiculously powerful, but only if you know what you're doing, and there's a lot to think about when it's on the board.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 09:27:14 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2015, 09:33:36 pm »
0

I do think that the absolute most skilled card is truly uncertain.  We'll never know, and it will keep on shifting with every new card made.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 09:45:14 pm »
0

Everything jsh said, but also Crossroads, Rats, and Native Village.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 09:56:20 pm »
+1

Ambassador.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 10:34:26 pm »
0

From hardest to play to easiest: Develop, Black Market, Knights, Advisor, Ambassador

Stonemason, Herald as honorable mention.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 10:37:38 pm »
0

Silver is a good card for mid ranked players to understand, potion too.

Possession is a card that requires specific skills that are not shared with other cards. Does that make it more skilled or not?
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 11:00:42 pm »
+1

One thing to notice is that often cards that are labeled as "weak" are simply narrow/skill-intensive.  Chancellor, Explorer, Counting House, Develop, can all be quite useful, even strong, if you know how to use them.  Similarly, cards that are "strong" most often simply require less (or even no) skill to use.  Mountebank and Goons (apart from knowing when to Copper buy) come to mind.

Of course, Scout actually is weak.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 08:07:47 am »
+5

Procession, without a doubt.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 09:35:53 am »
0

The most skilled card is the card you least expect it to be (so it's none of the cards mentioned, and it can't be mentioned).
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 10:05:00 am »
+1

I think a lot of the alt vp cards tend to add complexity and therefore can be played skillfully. Fairgrounds stands out, but also vineyard and silk road, which both require deck tracking, and the potion cost for vineyard adds a lot of complexity to that card. Duke seems simpler, and gardens simpler still. But if multiples of these cards show up on one board and they also have support, then i'm often at a loss for what to do.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 10:33:33 am »
+5

The most skilled card is the card you least expect it to be (so it's none of the cards mentioned, and it can't be mentioned).

Is it Moat?
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2015, 06:59:00 pm »
0


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2015, 07:05:40 pm »
0

Procession and Stonemason come to mind first. Perhaps also Rats and Graverobber.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2015, 07:08:34 pm »
+1


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Ha, yeah right. Scout will always be awful, no matter how much support.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2015, 07:18:39 pm »
0


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Ha, yeah right. Scout will always be awful, no matter how much support.

You do agree though that on a board with say, Great Hall, Ironworks, and the card I described (call it Wishing Great Hall),  you would probably want double ironworks and after a few turns of gaining obviously pick up a scout, right?.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2015, 07:37:33 pm »
0

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2015, 07:40:20 pm »
+3

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.

Yeah, then it would be almost as good as Vagrant.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 07:43:40 pm »
+1

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.

Scout would be a good card with +1 Card added.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 07:51:34 pm »
+9

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2015, 07:58:43 pm »
+11

Scout might be too strong with +1 Card added. No joke.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2015, 08:03:08 pm »
0

+1 card scout would be on par with Cartographer, so it would probably be too strong for $4
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2015, 08:11:20 pm »
+4

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

If you get +1 Card before the regular effects, most draw-to-X cards wouldn't be improved much.  Library is actually weakened slightly in most cases (if top card is an action, you can't choose to set it aside).  JoaT too (lose filtering option on the card you draw).  The small bonus is that you still get to draw a card when you are already at X or more cards in hand.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 08:12:47 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2015, 01:12:48 am »
+5

I don't know about a single card, but I think the most high-skill mechanic has to be cost-based trash-for-benefit. Why? Because you have to get rid of your good cards! Seasoned players can use it really effectively, but it scares the pants off newbies. I'm kind of in the middle of that - I know all about the potential but I'm horrible at getting it to work.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 03:41:55 pm »
+1

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 03:50:07 pm »
+1

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
I'm going to lead with Secret Chamber.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 03:53:10 pm »
0

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
I'm going to lead with Secret Chamber.

It's terminal, but I'll follow it up anyway with Tactician and Outpost.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 04:26:41 pm »
0

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
I'm going to lead with Secret Chamber.

Isn't that just halfway to Vault now?
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 05:40:00 pm »
+3

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
I'm going to lead with Secret Chamber.

Isn't that just halfway to Vault now?

It's halfway to Vault in the same way that $5 is halfway to $6.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 05:40:35 pm »
+2

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
I'm going to lead with Secret Chamber.

Isn't that just halfway to Vault now?

For $2, though. And with a Reaction and no drawback.

Guaranteeing $5 rather than $4 is arguably more of a step up than guaranteeing $6 over $5, too.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 06:13:53 pm »
+4

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 06:34:35 pm »
+2

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.

Scout would be a good card with +1 Card added.

I like LastFootnote's (?) suggestion of +1$.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2015, 06:42:04 pm »
0

Scout really just doesn't work. Cartographer and Vagrant take on its role but better. Adding +1 Card would make it too strong for $4 but too weak for $5. I feel like the best fix would be to take away the picking up Victory cards in exchange for the +1 Card, so that it becomes just cantrip deck viewing/arranging, but between Navigator and Cartographer and Apothecary it'd still be better to not even include it at that point.

In a sense, Cartographer is the "fixed" Scout, being everything it wanted to be while actually being a solid $5 card and a really cool one to boot.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2015, 06:59:25 pm »
0

i think forge deserves a mention, in terms of both tactical and strategic skills. knowing when it will be good is one thing -- it's one of the hardest trashers to decide. the rare times you can build the "lots of pairs of cards that add up to 8" deck and then cannibilize it, you feel really great, and you take really long pauses during your turn to think. isn't that the best definition of skill?
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2015, 06:59:59 pm »
+1

Man, every card would be good with +1 Card added.

Indeed. However, Scout is the only nonterminal that would not be OP after adding "+card", which is a good illustration of how bad it is.
I'm going to lead with Secret Chamber.

It's terminal, but I'll follow it up anyway with Tactician and Outpost.
I totally missed "nonterminal."
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2015, 07:05:34 pm »
0

I'm pretty terrible with Ambassador. Seems like most games I'm in with Ambassador (unless I'm playing with a noob), we both go for it and somehow it works much better for my opponent than it does for me.

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2015, 07:11:07 pm »
+1

I'm pretty terrible with Ambassador. Seems like most games I'm in with Ambassador (unless I'm playing with a noob), we both go for it and somehow it works much better for my opponent than it does for me.
Yep. Guys, really, it's Ambassador. Or maybe something else, I don't know.


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Ha, yeah right. Scout will always be awful, no matter how much support.

You do agree though that on a board with say, Great Hall, Ironworks, and the card I described (call it Wishing Great Hall),  you would probably want double ironworks and after a few turns of gaining obviously pick up a scout, right?.
Yes, sure, but this is still a weak strategy and can be beat pretty easily if there's something else on the board at all. And it's a 4-card combo, so yeah, never happens. That card you described is probably inheritance, and while inheritance is probably the best combo with scout, it still isn't really that great. Where you want to get scout is an edge case, and even then it still never really "shines" like most cards sometimes can.
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dghunter79

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2015, 04:40:52 am »
0


Of course, Scout actually is weak.

I will laugh when a new card is released specifically to give scout a purpose. I imagine a $4 cost combination of great hall and wishing well. Worth 1 point. Can trip. Wishing well effect. Scout draws it up. Auto laboratory.

Seems like it would make scout viable.
Ha, yeah right. Scout will always be awful, no matter how much support.

Scout is completely unstoppable as long as Great Hall, Silk Road, Scrying Pool, Vineyard, and Trade Route are in the kingdom.

c4master

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2015, 08:42:49 am »
+3

I will always remember Adams match against AI, where AI pulled off this crazy Procession-engine on a board that looked so terribly weak to me. It really showed me that Procession is a monster on most boards. Even knowing this, I still can't play with it. Lately, someone in the chat said: "It's never too early for a Procession." He's probably even right, but I'm just so bad with that specific card.

Oh yeah, and there are more cards that are hard to understand for newbies: almost all alt VP cards, and GOONS. But once you know about them, I find it relatively easy to go with it. So I would define high-skill cards as cards which are hard to master - just like Procession.

---

@discussion about Scout:
There would have been many ways to fix it:
1) +1 card, but only look at the next 3 cards afterwards (and pick the green).
2) Look through your draw pile and draw up to 4 green cards, then shuffle. (sounds pretty strong)
3) Make it cost only $3, so that it doesn't compete with Silk Road. (it still competes with silver, though)
4) Create more double type cards (green Peddler for $5 with 1 Point, for example).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 08:49:27 am by c4master »
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2015, 08:43:05 am »
+2

Honestly, Scout wouldn't be regarded as the worst card in Dominion if it just had +1 Card.  Now, that wouldn't really make it *good*, but it would solve one of its problems.  It would be in step with Apothecary, for one thing.

Scout would be a good card with +1 Card added.

I like LastFootnote's (?) suggestion of +1$.

Thanks. I finally printed and sleeved that version. Initial plays suggest that it's a good card with this change. Not super-strong, but solid.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2015, 08:45:54 am »
+1

I will always remember Adams match against AI, where AI pulled off this crazy Procession-engine on a board that looked so terribly weak to me. It really showed me that Procession is a monster on most boards. Even knowing this, I still can't play with it. Lately, someone in the chat said: "It's never too early for a Procession." He's probably even right, but I'm just so bad with that specific card.

Oh yeah, and there are more cards that are hard to understand for newbies: almost all alt VP cards, and GOONS. But once you know about them, I find it relatively easy to go with it. So I would define high-skill cards as cards which are hard to master - just like Procession.

Procession is, indeed, a very difficult card to play correctly, but I don't think it's a monster on most boards.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2015, 01:54:38 pm »
0

I will always remember Adams match against AI, where AI pulled off this crazy Procession-engine on a board that looked so terribly weak to me. It really showed me that Procession is a monster on most boards. Even knowing this, I still can't play with it. Lately, someone in the chat said: "It's never too early for a Procession." He's probably even right, but I'm just so bad with that specific card.

Oh yeah, and there are more cards that are hard to understand for newbies: almost all alt VP cards, and GOONS. But once you know about them, I find it relatively easy to go with it. So I would define high-skill cards as cards which are hard to master - just like Procession.

---

@discussion about Scout:
There would have been many ways to fix it:
1) +1 card, but only look at the next 3 cards afterwards (and pick the green).
2) Look through your draw pile and draw up to 4 green cards, then shuffle. (sounds pretty strong)
3) Make it cost only $3, so that it doesn't compete with Silk Road. (it still competes with silver, though)
4) Create more double type cards (green Peddler for $5 with 1 Point, for example).

Hey, where is the video where Adam plays against an AI?
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2015, 02:23:18 pm »
0

Not sure if joking, but I think he means Andrew Iannaconne, also known as ragingduckd.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2015, 10:48:30 pm »
0


Oh yeah, and there are more cards that are hard to understand for newbies: almost all alt VP cards, and GOONS. But once you know about them, I find it relatively easy to go with it. So I would define high-skill cards as cards which are hard to master - just like Procession.


I agree. Procession remains a total mystery to me (as you would expect from my very mediocre rating, I guess). But I think there are levels of mastery, too. So after one or two games where you got clobbered, most people would realize that Apprentice trashing Gold can definitely be a thing. And having Market Square in hand when you trash something to gain Gold is an obvious thing. But I think you have to be pretty highly skilled to control the implied chain reaction and do something like this:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150407/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1428458758346.txt

Yes, that's just your ordinary "buy 7 Provinces in two turns" plan. (Note: Mic Q also streamed this game, and pointed out some sloppy play on his part...wish I could be so sloppy.)
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2015, 11:50:04 pm »
+1

I will always remember Adams match against AI, where AI pulled off this crazy Procession-engine on a board that looked so terribly weak to me. It really showed me that Procession is a monster on most boards. Even knowing this, I still can't play with it. Lately, someone in the chat said: "It's never too early for a Procession." He's probably even right, but I'm just so bad with that specific card.

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2015, 11:58:32 pm »
+4


Oh yeah, and there are more cards that are hard to understand for newbies: almost all alt VP cards, and GOONS. But once you know about them, I find it relatively easy to go with it. So I would define high-skill cards as cards which are hard to master - just like Procession.


I agree. Procession remains a total mystery to me (as you would expect from my very mediocre rating, I guess). But I think there are levels of mastery, too. So after one or two games where you got clobbered, most people would realize that Apprentice trashing Gold can definitely be a thing. And having Market Square in hand when you trash something to gain Gold is an obvious thing. But I think you have to be pretty highly skilled to control the implied chain reaction and do something like this:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150407/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1428458758346.txt

Yes, that's just your ordinary "buy 7 Provinces in two turns" plan. (Note: Mic Q also streamed this game, and pointed out some sloppy play on his part...wish I could be so sloppy.)

This is flattering, but trust me, it's not that hard to do. And it's definitely not original to me in any way. You can find a post in these very forums where I say something like "Apprentice / Market Square can't be fast enough without other trashing" and then AI says something like "Nope, you're wrong" (in a nice way probably) and so I played some solitaire games and I'm like "I'm a moron, Apprentice / MS works without support." And the rest is just practicing it once or twice.

Don't buy into the myth of the genius Dominion player, remember we're all morons.

Here are some things about Apprentice / MS (which I have been thinking about a bit because I played it in the game above, and WW-AdamH played it in their match)
- Don't activate Market Squares too early in the game, you only want early Golds if you are struggling to buy a few Apprentices. Otherwise just play the Market Squares so that you can cycle to your Apprentices faster, the most important thing is getting thin. This is also true of say Chapel/MS.
- Once your chain is set up, don't auto-activate MS. You won't cost yourself Gold gains unless one of your Apprentice plays is going to overdraw the deck. If you are going to play multiple Apprentices anyway, it's okay to wait to activate until right before a shuffle. By keeping the MS in hand you give yourself an out (playing them as cantrips for a few more cards) in case you haven't yet managed to draw your next Gold/Apprentice pair.
- Don't assume you need to win the MS split. You can see in the log above that 4 works just fine. You don't want to end up with 2-3 probably, but you don't need to rush to buy 6 of them. There might be other $3 cards which help you play Apprentice more often (like Sage or Warehouse). Of course you might opportunistically take the split 7-3 (or 8-2) in denial if the opportunity presents itself, but that seems unlikely.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2015, 12:22:20 am »
+2

I know some people don't think Combo articles are worthwhile anymore, but that is one I hadn't seen before.  I think it is more worthy of a short combo article of anything I've seen mentioned in a while.  (Related also to the "Bring back the front page" discussion)

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2015, 01:10:29 am »
+2

I know some people don't think Combo articles are worthwhile anymore, but that is one I hadn't seen before.  I think it is more worthy of a short combo article of anything I've seen mentioned in a while.  (Related also to the "Bring back the front page" discussion)

There aren't that many "true combos" in Dominion. There are a huge number of possible positive interactions between cards, but the ones that deserve a combo article are only the ones that can form a strategy all by themselves and are not substantially helped by the presence of another card.

So combos like Trader/Feodum, Hermit/MS, Ironworks/Gardens, etc. would qualify in my opinion, but positive interactions such as Goons/Watchtower or Horse Traders/Duke that used to get featured articles on the front page don't seem to be worth mentioning.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 01:17:51 am by dondon151 »
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2015, 05:06:57 am »
0

So combos like Trader/Feodum, Hermit/MS, Ironworks/Gardens, etc. would qualify in my opinion, but positive interactions such as Goons/Watchtower or Horse Traders/Duke that used to get featured articles on the front page don't seem to be worth mentioning.

I think HT/Duke was worth it at this time as it more or less introduced the concept of the slog for most of us.  Not as explicit as in WW later article series, but for me it was a huge boost in understanding the game.

:e and is illustration for the slog it should also be published today, if it wouldn't exist.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 05:11:07 am by DStu »
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2015, 10:48:42 am »
+4

Based on the discussion in the other board, I am sure I am in the minority (at least of those speaking up), but I don't think the "combo" has to be so strong to be featured in a *short* article.  Maybe combo is just too strong of a word, but I think that pointing out things like Goons/Watchtower and Horse Traders/Duke are very useful for someone who is learning the game. Perhaps "interesting interaction" articles would sound more palatable.

When I was first playing on isotropic and found the strategy blog I think the combo threads were really good for helping me think about cards in different ways. General ideas like Watchtower can be used to trash things other than junk your opponent gave you, or Horse Traders can be good if you want tons of $5 cards are promoted by those combo articles and I think there is value there.

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2015, 11:25:53 am »
0


But I think you have to be pretty highly skilled to control the implied chain reaction and do something like this:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150407/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1428458758346.txt

Yes, that's just your ordinary "buy 7 Provinces in two turns" plan. (Note: Mic Q also streamed this game, and pointed out some sloppy play on his part...wish I could be so sloppy.)

This is flattering, but trust me, it's not that hard to do. And it's definitely not original to me in any way. You can find a post in these very forums where I say something like "Apprentice / Market Square can't be fast enough without other trashing" and then AI says something like "Nope, you're wrong" (in a nice way probably) and so I played some solitaire games and I'm like "I'm a moron, Apprentice / MS works without support." And the rest is just practicing it once or twice.

Don't buy into the myth of the genius Dominion player, remember we're all morons.

Fair enough. That's an inspirational quote. I actually didn't say you were a genius here (jsh357 in his Reddit persona has been trying to get me not say or think things like that). But I do maintain the point about "skill". Skill is something you develop with practice and experience, which certainly looks like what you did here.

Quote from: Mic Qsenoch
Here are some things about Apprentice / MS (which I have been thinking about a bit because I played it in the game above, and WW-AdamH played it in their match)
- Don't activate Market Squares too early in the game, you only want early Golds if you are struggling to buy a few Apprentices. Otherwise just play the Market Squares so that you can cycle to your Apprentices faster, the most important thing is getting thin. This is also true of say Chapel/MS.
- Once your chain is set up, don't auto-activate MS. You won't cost yourself Gold gains unless one of your Apprentice plays is going to overdraw the deck. If you are going to play multiple Apprentices anyway, it's okay to wait to activate until right before a shuffle. By keeping the MS in hand you give yourself an out (playing them as cantrips for a few more cards) in case you haven't yet managed to draw your next Gold/Apprentice pair.
- Don't assume you need to win the MS split. You can see in the log above that 4 works just fine. You don't want to end up with 2-3 probably, but you don't need to rush to buy 6 of them. There might be other $3 cards which help you play Apprentice more often (like Sage or Warehouse). Of course you might opportunistically take the split 7-3 (or 8-2) in denial if the opportunity presents itself, but that seems unlikely.

So here is an interesting comparison kingdom somebody just (coincidentally) posted on the Reddit /r/dominion subreddit:

Pawn, Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Market Square, Rats, Jack of All Trades, Wandering Minstrel, Apprentice, Cultist, Hunting Grounds,

Osiris1316 got destroyed by a pedestrian kind of engine that he says featured "pawn, a few minstrels, three cultists, a market square, a couple jacks, and a couple hunting grounds and silvers" (but was playing Rats + Market Square, apparently; that obviously needs some help). Anyway, I usually just pounce on Scrying Pool, but that actually seems a bit slow here if your opponent is tossing Ruins at you and not exactly on point in a kingdom where you have to use actual money to buy stuff. So I would have been tempted to open Rats/Silver or JoAT/Market Square and transition into Apprentice/Market Square, but maybe that doesn't clear Ruins quickly enough (maybe just buy a Cultist and then do the Cultist Pinata thing when Ruins are out?). Is there a sense at what point junking takes Apprentice/Market Square off the table? Unfortunately, the junking here comes from Cultist, which might be kind of worst case.

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2015, 11:41:55 am »
+1

Based on the discussion in the other board, I am sure I am in the minority (at least of those speaking up), but I don't think the "combo" has to be so strong to be featured in a *short* article.  Maybe combo is just too strong of a word, but I think that pointing out things like Goons/Watchtower and Horse Traders/Duke are very useful for someone who is learning the game. Perhaps "interesting interaction" articles would sound more palatable.

When I was first playing on isotropic and found the strategy blog I think the combo threads were really good for helping me think about cards in different ways. General ideas like Watchtower can be used to trash things other than junk your opponent gave you, or Horse Traders can be good if you want tons of $5 cards are promoted by those combo articles and I think there is value there.

This is why I added this to the start of the Combo article on the wiki:

Quote
A combo can refer to two things:

1) Two or more cards with a particular synergy
2) A cohesive strategy that relies only on two (sometimes three) cards

The first can act as a supplement or centerpiece to a larger strategy, and is typically the broader category. But when talking about a combo deck, it is the second that is being referred to.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2015, 02:12:34 pm »
0

Based on the discussion in the other board, I am sure I am in the minority (at least of those speaking up), but I don't think the "combo" has to be so strong to be featured in a *short* article.  Maybe combo is just too strong of a word, but I think that pointing out things like Goons/Watchtower and Horse Traders/Duke are very useful for someone who is learning the game. Perhaps "interesting interaction" articles would sound more palatable.

In the case of interesting interactions, I think the best way to approach that is to not focus on a single interaction but rather a class of interactions. There are far too many possible synergies between cards in Dominion, and players don't improve at the game through memorizing every single possible interaction - they have to be able to quickly evaluate combinations that they've never before seen.

Another problem with rattling off "combos" that are weak on the spectrum of card interactions is that they lead novice players to misjudge their strength. HT/Duke is great in the absence of an engine, but decent engines will beat it.

Contrast this to a true combo like Hermit/MS, where if you don't know how to play the mirror, you will lose almost every time.

EDIT: I should point out that a substantial number of Combo of the Day articles are combos that I've never, ever used to my advantage, e.g., Golem/Counting House, Ambassador/Pirate Ship, Caravan/Vault, etc.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 02:20:12 pm by dondon151 »
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pubby

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2015, 04:41:34 pm »
0

So here is an interesting comparison kingdom somebody just (coincidentally) posted on the Reddit /r/dominion subreddit:

Pawn, Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Market Square, Rats, Jack of All Trades, Wandering Minstrel, Apprentice, Cultist, Hunting Grounds,

Osiris1316 got destroyed by a pedestrian kind of engine that he says featured "pawn, a few minstrels, three cultists, a market square, a couple jacks, and a couple hunting grounds and silvers" (but was playing Rats + Market Square, apparently; that obviously needs some help). Anyway, I usually just pounce on Scrying Pool, but that actually seems a bit slow here if your opponent is tossing Ruins at you and not exactly on point in a kingdom where you have to use actual money to buy stuff. So I would have been tempted to open Rats/Silver or JoAT/Market Square and transition into Apprentice/Market Square, but maybe that doesn't clear Ruins quickly enough (maybe just buy a Cultist and then do the Cultist Pinata thing when Ruins are out?). Is there a sense at what point junking takes Apprentice/Market Square off the table? Unfortunately, the junking here comes from Cultist, which might be kind of worst case.
Scrying pool worked ok for me.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150412/log.539cc5ebe4b09ac4e56c3e3d.1428869928917.txt

I think cultist and jack are completely skippable here.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 04:55:42 pm by pubby »
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2015, 05:17:17 pm »
0

I'm not even sure that you want SP at all in that kingdom. Apprentice/MS is super strong and it gets even stronger with Rats.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2015, 06:31:39 pm »
+1

Quote
I'm not even sure that you want SP at all in that kingdom. Apprentice/MS is super strong and it gets even stronger with Rats.

I played it a bit more. It seems like if you open rats/silver and buy an Apprentice on turn 3/4 then you don't  need Scrying Pool at all. If you can't buy apprentice on turn 3/4 then you should buy a potion or else you'll get overrun with rats.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2015, 06:52:08 pm »
+1

I think the correct open on that board is Rats/Silver or Rats/MS . If you do Rats/MS, discard MS for the 1st gold as soon as possible so that you can buy Apprentice, but don't discard it after that because you only need the one. Prioritize MS over Rats, once you get an Apprentice you can go to town on Apprentice-Rats and then transition into the plain Apprentice-MS game.

The reason I like Rats/Silver more is because you definitely want to hit $5 as soon as you can for the first Apprentice. Apprentice-Rats is just so ridiculously snowballing, and whoever gets that going first should be able to win pretty easily.
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2015, 03:24:34 pm »
0

I will always remember Adams match against AI, where AI pulled off this crazy Procession-engine on a board that looked so terribly weak to me. It really showed me that Procession is a monster on most boards. Even knowing this, I still can't play with it. Lately, someone in the chat said: "It's never too early for a Procession." He's probably even right, but I'm just so bad with that specific card.



I think, that's the game I meant, but I can't see any procession here. Have I become so old forgetful?
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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2015, 07:52:16 pm »
0

Everything with Graverobber and/or Rogue, especially Graverobber. I think I'm quite adept at finding combos in almost any other kingdom, but every kingdom in which those make an appearance scares the crap out of me.

I agree with Black Market, in the sense of "knowing when to get or not get it." It can be a huge time sink and very swingy. When I first got it, I used to mess up using it to try and get cards like Witch or Chapel that I didn't realize lose a huge amount of their impact if you get them more than a few shuffles into the game. It breaks fairgrounds too, and I'm consistently surprised that people at my level (variably Isotropish level 25-31) never seem to go for FGs until I do in those games. FG itself, for that matter... figuring out whether it's worth trying to get it up to 6 or 8 without BM.

Bridge, not in the sense of "knowing when to get or not get it," but in the sense of "knowing which kingdoms with Bridge can make some cards even more OP" (Goons + actions + draw, especially) and how to best reach that before the other player.

In a sense, Saboteur and Pirate Ship, because one of my standards for whether I'm playing against a beginner or a skilled player is whether they actually buy either of those (since they always seem to attract beginners until they learn how much they suck). This has even on occasion led me to let my guard down too much and lose games by simply messing around instead of actually trying, and I even have a mental blinder of sorts on boards where Saboteur is obviously good, such as with Highways. I seem to have one such blinder towards "useless" cards in almost every game, such as double-resource age 2 cards in Seven Wonders, Diplomat in Catan: C&K, or Drama and anything remotely related to it in Through The Ages.
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ephesos

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2015, 12:37:17 am »
0

I seem to have one such blinder towards "useless" cards in almost every game, such as double-resource age 2 cards in Seven Wonders...
Useless? Age 2 resource cards are pretty much the only way Giza B can get to level 4 of their wonder, and many others have off-wonder triple costs that are really hard to fill without them(Rhodes, Hali, Babylon). Like, if you didn't get lucky and open Caravansery, and you want to finish your wonder, you pretty much need one of these.

Burying the appropriate double resource is one of the critical strategies in 3 player: if you hit the double brick or double stone, and Giza isn't prepared with Age 1 resources, you can just kill their wonder and deny them all those points. Same goes for Rhodes, Hali, and Babylon; seeing Caravansery go down one turn and a wonder built the next often means you're not finishing your wonder ever and it's time to figure out something else.

Wonder aside, they're really good for filling in expensive gaps e.g. resources your trading post neighbor doesn't have, and more importantly, resources you don't have any access to. If you don't have a play better than 2 points, it's probably worth it to just go for the double resource and not pay your opponents in Age 3.

In addition, science cards in Age 3 tend to have double resource costs; Age 2 science turns without obvious science to play are about predicting what gaps in the chain you'll have and keeping your science options open, since you'll almost never have enough cash around to pay out for an Age 3 jump, if your opponents know you need it and are denying you. Unless, of course, you're Ephesos. But then you've pretty much won anyway through sheer awesomeness :).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2015, 02:43:58 am »
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Yeah, I was going to say that the double resource cards can be pretty good.  That said, I usually try to get away with as few brown and grey cards as possible unless I really can't (like with Giza).  Ephesos is my favourite wonder also.

Also, IIRC, I considered Diplomat to be one of the better politics cards in Catan: C+K.  Granted, I usually went science whenever possible just for the chance at Inventor or Alchemist.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2015, 11:00:29 pm »
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For me the most skilled cards are the ones that can lead to unexpected three-pile endings. I would put procession, stone mason, Upgrade, fortress, develop as the main culprits. There is also Death Cart. But, I usually know when to buy those for a three-pile ending, but it seems a card people often overlook, so maybe it belongs on the list as well. If you can score points with virtual coins or VP tokens, rats can also lead to a surprise three-pile ending.

Edit: Or maybe it is not so much about the cards that lead to three-pile endings, but knowing how to execute surprise three-pile endings and also how to anticipate them. That is probably one of the highest skill Dominion talents to have, I think. Well, I'm just saying that because it is not something I have not mastered and something I have not seen many people at my skill level or even higher master. I am level 35ish, and I see people in the 40's who can't pull off the surprise pile endings. I don't mean when it's obvious, but when you have crazy interactions like procession or Stone mason shenanigans going on.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 11:04:17 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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AdamH

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2015, 07:53:45 am »
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I think, that's the game I meant, but I can't see any procession here. Have I become so old forgetful?

Maybe you're thinking of this game too? It's in the same match...

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LastFootnote

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2015, 02:48:00 pm »
+3

Procession, without a doubt.

I +1'd this back in March when brokoli posted it, but I'm going to necro this thread to vehemently agree that, yes, Procession is the most skill-intensive card in Dominion.
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Seprix

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2015, 08:01:47 pm »
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Procession, without a doubt.

I +1'd this back in March when brokoli posted it, but I'm going to necro this thread to vehemently agree that, yes, Procession is the most skill-intensive card in Dominion.

I can think of no other card that is harder to use but can pay off. Maybe there's an Adventures card though.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:36:22 pm by Seprix »
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rrenaud

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2015, 10:42:53 pm »
+1

* There is no good definition here, so it's just opinions.

You give up too easy. 

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg47781#msg47781
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Seprix

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2015, 11:12:22 pm »
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* There is no good definition here, so it's just opinions.

You give up too easy. 

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg47781#msg47781

We need updates, both now and when Adventures comes out.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2015, 11:21:20 pm »
+2

Procession, without a doubt.

I +1'd this back in March when brokoli posted it, but I'm going to necro this thread to vehemently agree that, yes, Procession is the most skill-intensive card in Dominion.

I agree. I often have a hard time figuring out the best use for that card. I have been playing around with it more and realize it's actually pretty amazing at also emptying out piles aside from being a Throne variant.
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