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Author Topic: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko  (Read 4642 times)

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theright555J

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Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« on: March 18, 2015, 12:29:12 pm »
+1

So I've become more open about playing anyone on Goko without restricting pro rating or Iso level all the time, just to get exposed to a variety of playstyles.  I have noticed that many registered players have extremely low Iso levels (negative 15 or worse), but yet they play competently.  Not that they are top-tier or even extremely good, but I really don't understand how a player with such a terrible rating can be a competent player...either they should just completely suck or their rating should rise accordingly.  Has anyone else noticed this?
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2015, 12:32:29 pm »
+1

I have also noticed it.  I do not have an explanation for you, though.  My guess is that since the higher level players don't play these low level guys, they don't have much of a chance of climbing the ladder.  There are plenty of decent to good players at the lower levels.  It might just go to show how big the gap is between really bad players and okay ones.
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2015, 01:15:30 pm »
+2

There's a bug with players who change their names - displayed iso levels in Salvager don't ever update. That could be some of it.

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 01:31:04 pm »
+1

Maybe they only knew how to handle a few of all the cards/strategies/situations, and those were exactly the ones that showed up in your game.
I don't know. I don't get it either. I know the group below also all had fun playing their matches despite the 35 level gap between them.

E1 (100%)
rankname                                  averagepoints#played2nd3rd     iso      season7?
1.silentstrife4.120.550.0284.36.9   Yes
2.fuzzyfrap3.41750.0230.54.2   No
3.EFHW3.01550.0221.5-9.3   Yes
4.Aetheros2.81450.0197.5-16.8    ?
5.bramroop2.61350.0197.0-16.1   Yes
6.trinadianese2.110.550.0159.8-30.4   Yes
silentstrife - fuzzyfrap: 4 - 2
silentstrife - EFHW: 4 - 2
silentstrife - Aetheros: 5 - 1
silentstrife - bramroop: 3 - 3
silentstrife - trinadianese: 4.5 - 1.5
fuzzyfrap - EFHW: 2 - 4
fuzzyfrap - Aetheros: 3 - 3
fuzzyfrap - bramroop: 5 - 1
fuzzyfrap - trinadianese: 5 - 1
EFHW - Aetheros: 3 - 3
EFHW - bramroop: 3 - 3
EFHW - trinadianese: 3 - 3
Aetheros - bramroop: 3 - 3
Aetheros - trinadianese: 4 - 2
bramroop - trinadianese: 3 - 3

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JW

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2015, 04:48:56 pm »
+4

Maybe they only knew how to handle a few of all the cards/strategies/situations, and those were exactly the ones that showed up in your game.
I don't know. I don't get it either. I know the group below also all had fun playing their matches despite the 35 level gap between them.

E1 (100%)
rankname                                  averagepoints#played2nd3rd     iso      season7?
1.silentstrife4.120.550.0284.36.9   Yes
2.fuzzyfrap3.41750.0230.54.2   No
3.EFHW3.01550.0221.5-9.3   Yes
4.Aetheros2.81450.0197.5-16.8    ?
5.bramroop2.61350.0197.0-16.1   Yes
6.trinadianese2.110.550.0159.8-30.4   Yes
silentstrife - fuzzyfrap: 4 - 2
silentstrife - EFHW: 4 - 2
silentstrife - Aetheros: 5 - 1
silentstrife - bramroop: 3 - 3
silentstrife - trinadianese: 4.5 - 1.5
fuzzyfrap - EFHW: 2 - 4
fuzzyfrap - Aetheros: 3 - 3
fuzzyfrap - bramroop: 5 - 1
fuzzyfrap - trinadianese: 5 - 1
EFHW - Aetheros: 3 - 3
EFHW - bramroop: 3 - 3
EFHW - trinadianese: 3 - 3
Aetheros - bramroop: 3 - 3
Aetheros - trinadianese: 4 - 2
bramroop - trinadianese: 3 - 3

One reason players may have a very low rating is that they have few rated games.

Iso levels have a large penalty for uncertainty, so the estimated means are not as different as this chart of levels indicates. For example, trinadianese has a mean of 1.8 and a penalty for uncertainty of -32 (3*sigma) with only 15 rated games. By comparison, silentstrike has a mean of 17.7 and a penalty for uncertainty of 10.1 (around the practical minimum 3*sigma of 10) with over 400 games.
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liopoil

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 04:50:49 pm »
+2

Maybe it's because they play against the bots a lot and the bots games don't count for the iso leaderboards anymore.
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2015, 05:12:54 pm »
0

Maybe it's because they play against the bots a lot and the bots games don't count for the iso leaderboards anymore.
Also, lower-rated players are/were more likely to play players whose ratings were inflated by bots, and, if I understand how the board was re-done, your wins against those opponents are now also worth less.

But to be honest, I really do think there is a connectivity issue going on; top players are much more likely to play each other and lower/mid-tier players are more likely to play each other, and although there is no doubt that the top-tier players are indeed much better, they may not be as much better as the ratings difference would indicate. And it could just be a limited sample size thing, but the top of the leader board was around Level 53/54 7-10 days ago, and now it's down to Level 50.

If there is a connectivity issue, but it is decreasing, I would predict some additional slippage, maybe even to the mid-40s. If this happens, and if we can discount the idea that the very top players all got worse at the same time, it suggests either a lot of improvement in the ranks of the lower-rated, or (I think more likely) some significant under-rating due to selective pairing.
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ephesos

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2015, 03:53:19 am »
+1

I'm Iso rank 11 now, but I definitely remember being in the negatives at the start of the Dominion League season. It's probably because I play mostly in real life and on Androminion. (and on Isotropic... RIP) All the other players were like 20 ranks up on me, and it felt like I belonged in E or even F division.

Playing on Goko, I have definitely noticed the catch-22 in raising up a low rating: you can't play people who are 4k+ because you aren't there yet, so you can never get to 4k+. I managed to break the barrier by playing in Dominion League, but for a while I felt really bad cause my rating would fluctuate wildly and I'd think that I was sapping my opponent's rating. That's probably why everyone only plays 4k+; they don't want to randomly lose to a 2k rated player and drop suddenly.

Also, some players are just good at some kinds of boards and bad at others; I love engines and combos, but I still don't really understand BM or alt-VP too well. So maybe when you play a low rated player, you just happened to play them in their area of expertise, and they were competent. But put Rats on the board, and watch them flounder around helplessly (in Androminion, Ambassador/Masquerade+Rats is an insta-win combo...)
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2015, 04:58:26 am »
+1

Playing on Goko, I have definitely noticed the catch-22 in raising up a low rating: you can't play people who are 4k+ because you aren't there yet, so you can never get to 4k+.
This does not match my experience. I started playing ranked for the first time two months ago, and I got above 4k in a couple of days. I mostly made tables with the title "all #vpon" and played against whoever joined.

Quote
That's probably why everyone only plays 4k+; they don't want to randomly lose to a 2k rated player and drop suddenly.
I think wanting more challenging matches is a bigger reason
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 10:04:32 am »
+1

Actually, I'm pretty new. I've played I think less than 200 games on goko and my rating hovers between 4200 and 4700 right now. But my iso rating is something ridiculous like -54. So yes i definately wondered about this too.
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ephesos

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2015, 01:54:48 pm »
0

Playing on Goko, I have definitely noticed the catch-22 in raising up a low rating: you can't play people who are 4k+ because you aren't there yet, so you can never get to 4k+.
This does not match my experience. I started playing ranked for the first time two months ago, and I got above 4k in a couple of days. I mostly made tables with the title "all #vpon" and played against whoever joined.
Hmm, maybe being able to host is key to finding people to play. I don't have any of the expansions, so I always just search around the lobby for open games and use the automatch for Salvager. But people kept rejecting me, probably cause of low rank, and the frustrating thing is that Salvager keeps trying to match you against them after they reject. So I normally just give up and play whoever has an open game, pro or casual.
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2015, 03:46:14 pm »
+1

Actually, I'm pretty new. I've played I think less than 200 games on goko and my rating hovers between 4200 and 4700 right now. But my iso rating is something ridiculous like -54. So yes i definately wondered about this too.

Actually, you are level 14 with 107 games played. Your uncertainty (3-sigma) is 13.89, which is only slightly higher than the practical minimum of 10. 100 games is enough to get a reasonably low uncertainty. You are probably recalling a time when you had many fewer games. "Iguana Iguana" here: http://www.gokosalvager.com/leaderboard
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 05:31:40 pm »
+1

Actually, I'm pretty new. I've played I think less than 200 games on goko and my rating hovers between 4200 and 4700 right now. But my iso rating is something ridiculous like -54. So yes i definately wondered about this too.

Actually, you are level 14 with 107 games played. Your uncertainty (3-sigma) is 13.89, which is only slightly higher than the practical minimum of 10. 100 games is enough to get a reasonably low uncertainty. You are probably recalling a time when you had many fewer games. "Iguana Iguana" here: http://www.gokosalvager.com/leaderboard

Thanks for the correction. When I look at my own stats by clicking my avatar in the multiplayer area of GoKo, it still reads -54, which is why I thought that. Obviously my Iso rating is not updating properly with my other rating. Thanks for showing me where I can get the correct information.
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theright555J

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2015, 03:47:49 pm »
0

Obviously my Iso rating is not updating properly with my other rating. Thanks for showing me where I can get the correct information.

This is probably a big reason; many of these players probably don't have that level at all!  :)
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2015, 08:55:05 pm »
0

For some reason, my Iso rank displays for me (and others?) as -54, but I'm level 25 on the actual leaderboard??
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 09:01:44 pm »
0

For some reason, my Iso rank displays for me (and others?) as -54, but I'm level 25 on the actual leaderboard??

Have you changed your username? If so, this may help explain it:

There's a bug with players who change their names - displayed iso levels in Salvager don't ever update. That could be some of it.
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 06:06:03 am »
+1

For some reason, my Iso rank displays for me (and others?) as -54, but I'm level 25 on the actual leaderboard??

This seems to happen to a bunch of players. I recently played against Aruru8. His level on isotropish is 26, but he is displayed at Salvager as Level -28. This seems to be a bug in Salvager.
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Chris is me

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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 12:52:51 pm »
0

For some reason, my Iso rank displays for me (and others?) as -54, but I'm level 25 on the actual leaderboard??

Have you changed your username? If so, this may help explain it:

There's a bug with players who change their names - displayed iso levels in Salvager don't ever update. That could be some of it.

Yup, I've done that a few times over the past year or so. Any way I can fix this? It sucks to be ranked in the 4000-5000 range but I can't play with people with Iso ranking filters since I'm "-54".
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Re: Really Low Iso Level Players on Goko
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2015, 06:09:59 pm »
0

Facing similar.  I'm -53, and don't see my username on the board (switched it from my real name to 'axle'). 

Do these things update once daily, or something?
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