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Author Topic: Hunting Grounds  (Read 53458 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2015, 11:26:45 am »
0

Okay, how's this?

Hunting Grounds has the highest draw without penalty in the game, and a cost to match.  Along with that, it has an on-trash ability that can give you an edge in points in the right kingdom.

How does it compare to other terminal draw cards?  The baseline here is Smithy.  To increase my hand by 6 cards (and still have Actions left for other things), I'd need to play 3 Villages and 3 Smithies.  I can get the same effect with 2 Villages and 2 Hunting Grounds.  However, Hunting Grounds' cost means that you (normally) can't open with it, and if there's a cheaper draw card in the kingdom, it's perfectly reasonable to go for those first and get Hunting Grounds later.  In some games, you may find yourself picking up HG after you've already set up your engine to ensure its reliability as you start to green.  Also, just because Hunting Grounds draw *more* than other cards, doesn't mean you can get by with *less* of them.  Hunting Grounds has the same chance to line up with a Village as every other draw card in a 5-card hand, and 3 Villages + 3 HGs means I've increased my hand by *9* cards.

Note that Hunting Grounds high cost makes it ill-suited to big money and slogs.

What about the on-trash ability?  Trash-for-benefit cards love Hunting Grounds.  If you're at a point where you're trashing Golds and engine pieces for Victory cards anyway, Hunting Grounds is a prime target, since it nets you 3 more points every time.  In fact, you might pick up extra HGs in the mid to late game just to stock up on fodder; if you have an engine that relies on other draw cards, you should consider picking up HG just to trash, as long as the right TfB cards are in the kingdom.  Whether to go with the Duchy or the three Estates will depend on the game state and the kingdom; taking the Estates can help empty another pile, so be on the lookout for that.

When should I start trashing HG?  As close to your last turn as possible, preferably on your last turn.  While you may want to start trashing Golds to TfB cards as you move from mid to late game, HG's draw is usually much more useful to you until the very end of the game.

Other interesting interactions:
* Hermit can trash HG from the discard, so you don't have to ponder trashing it or drawing with it
* Silk Road loves the Estates gain
* Farmland a HG for an 11 VP swing
* Graverobber can both trash (for benefit) and regain HG, sometimes on the same turn
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 12:01:07 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2015, 11:33:27 am »
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When should I start trashing HG?  This will depend on how many HG you have, and how much you rely on them for draw.  If they're expendable, trash them whenever you'd consider trashing Gold for benefit.  If they're not, wait until the Province pile is low, and the extra VP is worth more than the draw you'd get.

As an example, say you have Stonemason and HG in hand, and 1/2 Actions left.  If there's only 1/2 Provinces left, and you're nowhere near a reshuffle, you might be better off feeding the HG to the SM and taking the three Duchies.

Other interesting interactions:
* Hermit can trash HG from the discard, so you don't have to ponder trashing it or drawing with it
* Silk Road loves the Estates gain
* Farmland a HG for an 11 VP swing

This is wrong. "Consider trashing them whenever you'd consider trashing Gold for benefit." But it's not really a related case... Gold doesn't draw for you, so it has a different place in your deck than HG. You might trash Gold sooner than you'd trash HG. Generally if you're trashing HG, you're doing it on like your last turn, so your deck does't fall apart. Not "whenever it is expendable."

Also, the continued mentioning of Hermit makes no sense. There is no special interaction with Hermit here. Being able to trash HG out of the discard is not really a worthwhile benefit, particularly in the kind of deck that wants HG--one where you draw everything.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2015, 11:35:09 am »
+1

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2015, 11:36:54 am »
+1

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Seprix

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2015, 11:41:20 am »
0

I think mentioning Hermit as a way to trash HG that you don't draw on the final turn is acceptable, since Stef has said that the only turn you want to cash in your chips is on the last turn. You gain a +4 Estate swing with Hermit, which is not insignificant piles wise.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 11:43:17 am by Seprix »
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2015, 11:43:14 am »
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If you're getting extra HG's just to trash them, you'll probably want to start trashing them a little before your last turn.  But I get what you're saying about not as early as you would start trashing gold.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2015, 11:45:12 am »
0

If you're getting extra HG's just to trash them, you'll probably want to start trashing them a little before your last turn.  But I get what you're saying about not as early as you would start trashing gold.

Nah, bro. You want to trash your TfB cards on the last turn that ends the game if you can, unless you know for sure your opponent can end it himself unless you do something pointswise.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2015, 11:57:12 am »
0

Oh my god. Calm your tits people! We are friends, not enemies. Correct with kindness, not with harsh criticism, even if the article is not up to your standards.

I like harsh criticism a lot more than kindness though. It's nice to receive harsh criticism. When you receive harsh criticism, you learn how to improve whatever it is that you're working on, and when you've finally managed to do a great job and receive positive feedback from the same guys, you know that they're not just trying to be polite, but your work was genuinely good. Then you'll have more confidence in the future when you're doing more of that stuff, which helps you make better decisions and get better results.

When your work sucks and you receive feedback from people who are trying to be kind, you don't learn anything useful, your work will continue to suck, you'll keep making more bad works in the future, and you'll never improve yourself until someone breaks it down for you. In the worst case scenario, you have something else to blame for your mediocrity (such as, not being the best Dominion player ever, not having the most expensive top-end equipment for whatever it is that you're doing, etc), and then the wishy-washy feedback makes you think that you're doing a good job, but the other stuff is holding you back from creating excellent works, and then you just "accept" that your works can never be as good as the works by people who don't have the other stuff holding them back, or maybe you'll start trying to improve the circumstances in hopes of getting rid of your imaginary obstacles, but it will never happen because you're not fixing the main problem which is yourself. I have totally suffered from people trying to be overly kind to me in this way, and it sucks.

So yeah, if you want to be helpful, offer harsh criticism. If you want to be harmful, offer kindness. If you don't want to be harsh or harmful, just do what I've done here for the most parts and shut up.
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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2015, 11:58:27 am »
+9

You can give harsh criticism without being rude.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2015, 02:40:04 pm »
+4

Oh my god. Calm your tits people! We are friends, not enemies. Correct with kindness, not with harsh criticism, even if the article is not up to your standards.

I like harsh criticism a lot more than kindness though. It's nice to receive harsh criticism. When you receive harsh criticism, you learn how to improve whatever it is that you're working on, and when you've finally managed to do a great job and receive positive feedback from the same guys, you know that they're not just trying to be polite, but your work was genuinely good. Then you'll have more confidence in the future when you're doing more of that stuff, which helps you make better decisions and get better results.

When your work sucks and you receive feedback from people who are trying to be kind, you don't learn anything useful, your work will continue to suck, you'll keep making more bad works in the future, and you'll never improve yourself until someone breaks it down for you. In the worst case scenario, you have something else to blame for your mediocrity (such as, not being the best Dominion player ever, not having the most expensive top-end equipment for whatever it is that you're doing, etc), and then the wishy-washy feedback makes you think that you're doing a good job, but the other stuff is holding you back from creating excellent works, and then you just "accept" that your works can never be as good as the works by people who don't have the other stuff holding them back, or maybe you'll start trying to improve the circumstances in hopes of getting rid of your imaginary obstacles, but it will never happen because you're not fixing the main problem which is yourself. I have totally suffered from people trying to be overly kind to me in this way, and it sucks.

So yeah, if you want to be helpful, offer harsh criticism. If you want to be harmful, offer kindness. If you don't want to be harsh or harmful, just do what I've done here for the most parts and shut up.

This is not quite accurate, I think. It really depends on who you're talking to. Things vary by person, but in general when people are just getting into something, it's good to focus on what they're doing well so that they feel encouraged to keep working at it. When someone is already pretty good at something, it's much better to help them find mistakes so they can continue improving. I recall reading a study in which novice and experienced musicians were told to either focus on their strengths or on their weaknesses. Novices improved more with the former and experts more with the latter.

I do in general agree with you that honesty is better, but being mean or rude rarely helps.

I think part of the problem here is that it doesn't really seem like there's that much to say about HG. I mean, it draws a ton, is expensive, and has a TfB effect. It works pretty much how you'd expect such a card to work. I think the most interesting things I've seen are Stef's comments that you may want to overbuild a little more in the presence of TfB and that its close to twice as good as smithy.
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Seprix

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2015, 11:16:13 pm »
0

I think part of the problem here is that it doesn't really seem like there's that much to say about HG.

This is true. I tried writing a joke article about Village yesterday, and the only thing I could think of was just posting the picture.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2015, 04:46:46 pm »
+4

Maybe the problem is single card articles.  There's obviously something to be said about Village, but the best place for it is probably a general introduction to the principles of Dominion.  There's very little you can say about Village in isolation, and the same goes for Vanilla terminal draw.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2015, 05:16:16 pm »
0

Maybe the problem is single card articles.  There's obviously something to be said about Village, but the best place for it is probably a general introduction to the principles of Dominion.  There's very little you can say about Village in isolation, and the same goes for Vanilla terminal draw.

That's a good idea!
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2015, 05:59:59 pm »
+3

If you ask me, we need a lack of civility on the articles board thread.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 06:47:02 pm by Eevee »
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2015, 06:11:24 pm »
0

If you ask me, we need a lack of civility in the artics-section thread.

Huh? I don't understand.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2015, 06:16:31 pm »
0

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2015, 06:27:37 pm »
0

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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2015, 12:38:40 am »
0

So... any other thoughts on the new article?  Is it even worth trying to do an article on Hunting Grounds?  Or should I just wait another week for the previews so I can unload all the theorycrafting I've been mentally mulling over for the new cards?

I guess that might be the problem with my thoughts on strategy - I tend to find more enjoyment thinking through what a particular card can do rather than sitting through endless games actually putting that card into practice.  I figured out Rats by sitting and thinking about it, not by playing so many games with Rats.  Maybe I was over (or under) thinking HG, maybe not every card needs an article.

Eh.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2015, 04:06:19 am »
+2

So... any other thoughts on the new article?  Is it even worth trying to do an article on Hunting Grounds?  Or should I just wait another week for the previews so I can unload all the theorycrafting I've been mentally mulling over for the new cards?

I guess that might be the problem with my thoughts on strategy - I tend to find more enjoyment thinking through what a particular card can do rather than sitting through endless games actually putting that card into practice.  I figured out Rats by sitting and thinking about it, not by playing so many games with Rats.  Maybe I was over (or under) thinking HG, maybe not every card needs an article.

Eh.

I think the fact that Hunting Grounds is better than 1.333 Smithies is worth pointing out. Also the fact that Estate gaining helps three-pile. Hermit and Silk Roads are relevant synergies to list.

So yes, i think an article makes sense. It might still be useless for the best Dominion players, but Wikis tend to be useless if you know all they have to say. I personally wasn't aware of the points i listed before this discussion, at least.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2015, 09:49:22 am »
+3

So... any other thoughts on the new article?  Is it even worth trying to do an article on Hunting Grounds?  Or should I just wait another week for the previews so I can unload all the theorycrafting I've been mentally mulling over for the new cards?

I guess that might be the problem with my thoughts on strategy - I tend to find more enjoyment thinking through what a particular card can do rather than sitting through endless games actually putting that card into practice.  I figured out Rats by sitting and thinking about it, not by playing so many games with Rats.  Maybe I was over (or under) thinking HG, maybe not every card needs an article.

Eh.

i say go ahead and post -- it's a wiki ! if people don't like the article, they can edit it.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2015, 10:02:51 am »
+2

I for one will be happy to edit back in the phrase 'smithy on steroids' as soon as it is posted. That way, you don't need to take the heat for it. But seriously, post the article. It was helpful to me.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2015, 10:26:25 am »
0

I for one will be happy to edit back in the phrase 'smithy on steroids' as soon as it is posted. That way, you don't need to take the heat for it. But seriously, post the article. It was helpful to me.

What I'm talking about is the *new* article I wrote, up at the top of the page - not the one on the first page.

EDIT: Or, is that what you were talking about?  Blargh.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2015, 11:38:00 am »
+2

I'm talking about the new one. What I found helpful about both of them was mainly the comparison to smithy: one card more is actually a substantive improvement in card draw, not a marginal one. Many people may know that intuitively, I did not. FWIW, I read every single card page on the wiki before i read a single post on this forum, and used that info to break into competitive playing. It was particularly helpful for figuring out how to use cards on goko that i still do not own irl. So i imagine that a few paragraphs about this card that amount to: yes, it really is that much better than smithy will be helpful to someone who has little or no experience playing with it yet. And, those people absolutely are looking at the wiki in order to try to quickly catch up on a lot of info so that they can play competitive random games. So I guess to me that is enough reason to post it. Also, yes, the new one is better, because it gets to the point and doesn't have misinformation or get bogged down in edge cases.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 11:40:50 am by iguanaiguana »
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2015, 11:52:59 am »
+1

Okay.  I'll replace the original post here, and the article on the wiki.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2015, 11:54:12 am »
+1

I think that if there is any information that is not learned upon studying the rules and basic play, it should be published, as insignificant as it is. Knowing Hunting Grounds is better than Smithy (even if it's obvious) should be pointed out, even if it's a couple of sentences.
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