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Author Topic: Hunting Grounds  (Read 53456 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2015, 09:49:22 am »
+2

Okay, I trimmed quite a bit, and didn't quote Mic Qsenoch at all.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2015, 10:20:13 am »
+7

I think Mic did a great job finding a balance between providing some constructive feedback and trying to get the article shorter.
Wish I was that subtle.

I thought about giving you a writers assignment to rewrite the article from scratch but with a very restrictive maximum number of words. But I don't think this becomes a happier place when people start handing out assignments to others, so why not give it a try myself. Just to show where it could lead - I do tend to do this when I write stuff myself, it helps me keep the text focused when I start expanding it.

10: Play in deck drawing engines. Overbuild when you can trash.

20: For deck drawing engines this outclasses smithy variants. Overbuild when you can trash it. BM probably has better alternatives.


If I wanted to turn those 20 words into an actual article, I'd probably babble on a bit about why it outclasses smithy, try to figure out by exactly how much, and why you should overbuild. Give some example game state where you would start to green if this was another draw card, but keep building because it's Hunting grounds.
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Asper

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2015, 11:40:45 am »
0

A nitpick: The article claims that $6+ cards were the only ones you couldn't open with, when the same is true for Potion costs.
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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2015, 11:54:42 am »
0

A nitpick: The article claims that $6+ cards were the only ones you couldn't open with, when the same is true for Potion costs.

Goddammit.  Tweaked that sentence.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2015, 09:28:54 pm »
0

I have to agree. A play pattern I often find in games with HG and Trash for Benefit is that you should very very often overbuild with extra Hunting Grounds as the game comes close to the end - it increases the reliability of your engine, and then when you get through your deck, the extra ones are payload and/or pile control.

Do you find yourself thinking a lot about reliability with HG, in general? Of course if you're getting more power from fewer cards, you're at more risk of bad draws. Is HG a decent argument for, say, Band of Misfits (where the latter offers some mid-grade drawing option?)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 09:50:25 pm by RD »
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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2015, 11:02:39 pm »
0

I have to agree. A play pattern I often find in games with HG and Trash for Benefit is that you should very very often overbuild with extra Hunting Grounds as the game comes close to the end - it increases the reliability of your engine, and then when you get through your deck, the extra ones are payload and/or pile control.

Do you find yourself thinking a lot about reliability with HG, in general? Of course if you're getting more power from fewer cards, you're at more risk of bad draws. Is HG a decent argument for, say, Band of Misfits (where the latter offers some mid-grade drawing option?)

The problem is that since HG draws more, you don't need as many to draw your entire deck (when compared to Smithy), but having fewer of them in your deck lowers the chance of actually drawing them with a Village.  It's a balance you have to find.

EDIT: Which is pretty much exactly what you said.  Man, I'm tired.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2015, 12:41:09 pm »
0

FWIW, I just read the article currently on the main post and thought, wow, what a coherent, helpful article. I had no clue it was such a community effort until reading the rest of the thread. Also, I really like Stef's 20 summation. I wonder how many cards you could do that with.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2015, 01:05:52 pm »
+8

FWIW, I just read the article currently on the main post and thought, wow, what a coherent, helpful article. I had no clue it was such a community effort until reading the rest of the thread. Also, I really like Stef's 20 summation. I wonder how many cards you could do that with.

I like doing articles like this because I feel I'm a better writer than Dominion player, and posting these makes all the good players come out of the woodwork and tell me how wrong I am.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2015, 01:48:07 pm »
0

FWIW, I just read the article currently on the main post and thought, wow, what a coherent, helpful article. I had no clue it was such a community effort until reading the rest of the thread. Also, I really like Stef's 20 summation. I wonder how many cards you could do that with.

I like doing articles like this because I feel I'm a better writer than Dominion player, and posting these makes all the good players come out of the woodwork and tell me how wrong I am.

I find this is true of more or less everything. You write it down and somehow you learn.
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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2015, 02:53:32 pm »
0

If there are no objections, I'll put this up on the wiki?  Think it's in good shape now.
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Seprix

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2015, 01:02:24 pm »
+3

I think Mic did a great job finding a balance between providing some constructive feedback and trying to get the article shorter.
Wish I was that subtle.

I thought about giving you a writers assignment to rewrite the article from scratch but with a very restrictive maximum number of words. But I don't think this becomes a happier place when people start handing out assignments to others, so why not give it a try myself. Just to show where it could lead - I do tend to do this when I write stuff myself, it helps me keep the text focused when I start expanding it.

10: Play in deck drawing engines. Overbuild when you can trash.

20: For deck drawing engines this outclasses smithy variants. Overbuild when you can trash it. BM probably has better alternatives.


If I wanted to turn those 20 words into an actual article, I'd probably babble on a bit about why it outclasses smithy, try to figure out by exactly how much, and why you should overbuild. Give some example game state where you would start to green if this was another draw card, but keep building because it's Hunting grounds.

I'd love a thread where Stef gives his thoughts on all dominion cards in 20 words or less. :)
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2015, 01:21:29 pm »
+2

If there are no objections, I'll put this up on the wiki?  Think it's in good shape now.

I don't know if I exactly object, but I still don't think the article is, uh, very helpful? I'd actually prefer either of Stef's versions.

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2015, 04:13:53 pm »
+1

If there are no objections, I'll put this up on the wiki?  Think it's in good shape now.

I don't know if I exactly object, but I still don't think the article is, uh, very helpful? I'd actually prefer either of Stef's versions.

I have no objections. Stef helped proofread it along with the rest of the community, after all.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2015, 04:10:34 am »
+7

If there are no objections, I'll put this up on the wiki?  Think it's in good shape now.

I don't know if I exactly object, but I still don't think the article is, uh, very helpful? I'd actually prefer either of Stef's versions.

I like the article as it is. Yes, you always can do better, but its definitely a good article with a lot of useful information. Don't forget the most players are not L40+ (including Wero) and haven`t played thousands of games.

I felt like the feedback was quite harsh partially and also felt a little bit ashamed when i saw that some better players were making fun of this article in a stream chat. In my eyes this is a little bit disrespectful to Wero, who made an effort with this article.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2015, 08:04:12 am »
+4

If there are no objections, I'll put this up on the wiki?  Think it's in good shape now.

I don't know if I exactly object, but I still don't think the article is, uh, very helpful? I'd actually prefer either of Stef's versions.

I like the article as it is. Yes, you always can do better, but its definitely a good article with a lot of useful information. Don't forget the most players are not L40+ (including Wero) and haven`t played thousands of games.

I felt like the feedback was quite harsh partially and also felt a little bit ashamed when i saw that some better players were making fun of this article in a stream chat. In my eyes this is a little bit disrespectful to Wero, who made an effort with this article.

I'm really not trying to be mean to Wero here - I am sure he has put effort into it, and I don't want to belittle that. That does not, however, mean that the article is good. That's not at all meant to be an assault on him, but what do you want me to do? Say that I think it is good when I don't? He specifically asked for opinions, and I gave mine.

I mean, first of all, there's some stylistic fluff (e.g. "It's a smithy on steroids") which I don't think adds to anything, but that is really rather irrelevant, and I don't find it necessarily detracts from the article. But there are other things. For instance, saying that getting one is tricky seems misleading - it's not harder to get than any other $6. His explanation for how to get to $6 is not what you want to do, perhaps even more than half the time. It's pretty important to note, I think, that you dodn't need to blitz for the card. You can usually build up the rest of your deck, and then once you are making $6 naturally, start thinking about getting the card. Going very far out of your way to get to $6 for this is almost certainly wrong. Furthermore, you don't care at all whether that money is coming from action cards or engine components or whatever. It's more about building a deck which will function well, and when you do that, the money will come easily, as you're always going to be able to find some source or other.

Next thing he says is that after you have one Hunting Grounds, it makes the next one much easier - well, maybe true, but this is true of most cards which aren't green, since your deck is improving - saying you'll be drawing most of your deck. Well, one Hunting Grounds simply won't draw most of your deck unless you've trashed down, and while you can be drawing most of your deck by then anyways, that will again be mostly due to whatever else you're doing, not becuase you've gotten this oen golden card like the article implies. This is *A* draw card, pretty much like any other. There's not a particular qualitative difference.

After this, he says that you don't want as many Hunting Grounds as you do Smithies. I actually don't think that's true. Yes, sometimes you will get fewer Hunting Grounds because you need to do other things right now, the game is ending, or what have you. But the thing is, my gut tells me that instead of skimping on these, you actually just want to use the extra cards to build up more payload. More actual draw cards gives you more reliability, as you're less likely to stall out. He gives a "quantify this" example of 3 Village and 3 Smithy vs 2 Village and 2 Hunting Grounds, seemingly concluding that the Hunting Grounds route is better. However, I have the feeling that the Smithy route is actually better here quite a significant percentage of the time. More villages and smithies means you are more likely to get what you need together. And though the overall cost is $3 more, it's probably actually easier to get the villages and smithies, if you are starting from the beginning of the game. Hunting Grounds will often be the better option once you have gotten to the point you're drawing your deck anyway, and are picking up payload and need to still have the ability to draw all these extra cards you're getting.

Next, he talks about when you should trash it. He starts off by saying that "more than any other card, Hunting Grounds can be turned into VP". First of all, I don't think this is true - Platinum is basically always scoring you more, for one - but it also misses the point. There are two things about the on-trash benefit. One is, I am ending the game right now (not "think I can", but KNOW I can because I have calculated), and getting 3 estates helps me chug through that pile really quickly. The other is, I have built an engine which is nice and trim and drawing itself, I have some trash-for-benefit (Salvager, Butcher, and Apprentice really come to mind), and I am running out of fuel for that trash-for-benefit. Getting this extends my fuel more than most other cards would, because I can trash this, get $6 of benefits, then trash the duchy, get $5 more of benefits. Making some kind of value play of grabbing points with this is not terribly where you want to be - it's not about the points - especially if the game is going on longer. When you build an Hunting Grounds deck, it's usually the deck that doesn't want to be clogged with green cards, especially while getting rid of your draw at the same time. So the whole "about to shuffle" thing just gets people thinking about entirely the wrong thing - if you are "about to shuffle", you probably shouldn't trasht he HG at all. Of course this is all general, and there are lots of exceptions. The specific examples of cards to use with this also don't do anything special - Stonemason usually leads to pile endings, where gaining 3 duchies is usually not going to be as much of a thing as piling out - which makes me want to look at 5 estates as the real threat. Of course 3 duchies may well come up, too, but without a plan to end the game, this can be really disastrous. Remodel and Farmland are not the trash-for-benefit cards which really accentuate the trash ability of HG; you can score a random extra 3 points, but you don't do that as a strategy, just as a 'oh hey I can score 3 more on the turn I end the game by emptying provinces' since you probably don't want to do that before. And Hermit wanting to trash this is DEFINITELY not worth mentioning - Hunting Grounds decks are going to have the HG in the discard SUPER rarely, and you are getting no benefit at all from trashing it other than the 3 points. This really is one of the worst as well as the most unlikely cases.

Finally, I am not a fan of synergy and anti-synergy sections in general nowadays, but on top of that a little, I really dislike the "engines with coin-producing pieces" note. It's not even clear that what he means by this is that the cards which give +action and draw are also producing money, but that is irrelevant if it is what he's going for - again, it doesn't matter where the money comes from - and if he just means you need money of some sort anyway, well, almost any engine has that, and the ones that don't will be perfectly happy with Hunting Grounds, jsut like any other. Also, "Remodelers" is just worse than "Trash for Benefit", since the trash for benefit cards which aren't Remodel variants are generally even a little better for Hunting Grounds than the ones which are. But beyond this, I don't think I would include that, because it seems to me that it implies that you really want to use the trash benefit of Hunting Grounds for it to be worth it as a card, which isn't true - it is really predominantly a draw card.

pacovf

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2015, 08:26:52 am »
+4

Polk hvb wasn't ashamed of the "This article is wrong because X" feedback, he was ashamed of the "This article is laughably useless" feedback.

As of late, some of the comments of the high-rated players about the wiki/articles have been quite out of place.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 09:13:17 am by pacovf »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2015, 08:53:04 am »
+3

Polk

Napoleon has fooled us again.
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werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2015, 09:12:57 am »
0

Re: WW's massive block of text.

I like my stylistic fluff.  Get used to it.

What are the main noticeable things about HG?  It costs $6, and it gives VP when you trash it.  That higher cost is actually important - there are some decks, particularly early trashing decks, where you most likely will not see a $6 hand for quite a while - say you're playing the First Game setup and you open Remodel/Silver to load up on Villages and Smithies.  You're perfectly happy getting $3/$4 hands, because the cards you're aiming for are at that price level.  There are many engines where you invest in the cheap things first.  When there are more expensive cards out, you have to remind yourself "yeah, I should pick up some more Silvers", because otherwise your deck is just not going to produce enough coin early enough.  And sure, HG isn't Goons, but you still want them as early as you can get them.  I'm just saying that some playstyles lend more easily to getting $6 early, and that's just something you should take into account.  Just because it's "just like getting any other $6 card" doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning.

And how about next time, instead of just kind of sulking and saying "yeah it's okay", you actually come up front with this sort of criticism while I'm still writing the article?  I don't mind criticism - I want to know what needs to be improved - isn't that why we're all here?  What I *don't* want is this sort of tongue-clicking and eye-rolling and implied "man, what a moron".  That's not exactly a friendly atmosphere that encourages continued posting.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2015, 10:14:03 am »
+6

First and foremost, I want this to be a supportive community. But when reading the first draft of this article, I was overwhelmed by how bad I thought it was, and somewhat blanked. Apparently that leads to even worse results then just saying it, so here we go:


It draws four cards - that's awesome!  It costs $6 - that's... not so awesome.  Hunting Grounds is a powerful card, and as such, it's pretty expensive - but is it worth it?

What does it do?

Draws four cards.  It's a Smithy on steroids, so if you know how to play terminal draw, you'll know what to do with this once it's in your deck.  It also has a neat little ability when you trash it, which we’ll get to in a bit.
To me, this is an insulting start of the article. I would feel equally insulted when I wasn't actually any good at dominion. I already know it draws 4 cards! I already know it costs $6! I want to know what the implications for the game are.

How do I get one?

That's the tricky part.  $6+ cards are the only cards (outside of Baker and Potion games) that you can’t open with.  There are some games where you won’t see a $6 hand for quite a few turns; there are others you might see one on turn 3.  The key is to balance coin production with engine parts (Hunting Grounds is very much an engine card), and the easiest way to do that is cards that do both, like Fishing Village or Market or even Oasis, though a couple Silvers can work as well.  Once you do have that Hunting Grounds in your deck, it makes getting the next one so much easier, since you'll be drawing most of your deck.
This section has nothing to do with hunting grounds. It should not be in here.

Because of its sheer drawing power, you won't want as many Hunting Grounds as you would Smithies...
This is the first sentence I'd like to actually see in the article. Here it might get interesting...

, leaving you with more room for other terminals in your engine, but you'll still definitely want more than one, to ensure that at least one lines up with a Village. 
but unfortunately the rest of the sentence doesn't make sense.

Let’s quantify that a little: if I play three Villages and three Smithies, I've increased my handsize by 6, and spent $21 getting them into my deck in the first place.  If I play two Villages and two Hunting Grounds, I've achieved the same effect (handsize increase of 6), but only spent $18.  So Hunting Grounds is quality for money, and that one extra card is more than it would at first seem.
Suggestion to replace with:

Because of its sheer drawing power, you won't need as many Hunting Grounds as you would Smithies. If you think Hunting Grounds is only 4/3 better then a Smithy, you're not taking into account the village you need to play them. For example, in order to support 6 payload cards, you'd need 3 times village+smithy, but only 2 times village + hunting grounds, so that's 1.5 times better. If we replace the village by a Festival the Hunting Grounds is actually twice as good as Smithy.

When should I trash it?

Gaining a/some Victory card(s) when Hunting Grounds is trashed can at first seem like more of a consolation prize than anything else - the sheer drawing power seems much more useful.  This is missing an important point: more than any other card, Hunting Grounds can be turned into VP as the game ends.  This is in part due to its cost, but mainly due to its ability to gain a Duchy or three Estates. 

As examples, Stonemason can gain three Duchies from a Hunting Grounds, Remodel can gain a Province and a Duchy, and buying a Farmland with Hunting Grounds in hand can give you a swing of 11 points.  Hermit also works well for this, since you don't have to worry about losing the draw power from Hunting Grounds if it's in your discard pile already anyway.  Just think about whether you'll get more benefit from keeping the Hunting Grounds, or taking the Victory cards; as you get closer to the end of the game, the latter will become more and more useful. 

Choosing whether to go for the Duchy or the Estates will depend on the board and the current game state.  If you’re about to shuffle, probably better to get the Duchy.  If you think you can end the game on piles, gaining the Estates can help you do that.

If the right trashing cards are in the Kingdom, it can often be a worthwhile tactic to start picking up more Hunting Grounds than your engine really needs.  This serves two purposes: it makes your deck just that much more reliable as you green, and it gives fodder for trash-for-benefit cards as the game ends.
This is a very long section that could be replaced with one sentence: You should only trash it on your final turn.

The interesting question is: Under what circumstances should I buy this card purely for the on-trash. How/when do I prepare for that final turn? That question actually does deserve a paragraph but is now missing.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2015, 10:41:16 am »
+2

Re: WW's massive block of text.

I like my stylistic fluff.  Get used to it.
While you say later on that you "don't mind criticism", "Get used to it" seems like a very defensive response to it.

Quote
What are the main noticeable things about HG?  It costs $6, and it gives VP when you trash it.
While this is true, it is what people notice, I think these things are actually quite a bit less important than the simple "draw four cards". That's a big deal, and the other stuff, while not irrelevant, is not that important. In fact, you might sum up what I feel the main thing people are trying to say critically about this article is that: You are focusing too much on the cute things, when the raw blunt "draw four cards" is WAY more important, and this COMPOUNDS the problems that a lot of new players will have - they focus too much on unique things, when it's the vanilla things which are often more important.
Quote
That higher cost is actually important - there are some decks, particularly early trashing decks, where you most likely will not see a $6 hand for quite a while - say you're playing the First Game setup and you open Remodel/Silver to load up on Villages and Smithies.  You're perfectly happy getting $3/$4 hands, because the cards you're aiming for are at that price level.  There are many engines where you invest in the cheap things first.  When there are more expensive cards out, you have to remind yourself "yeah, I should pick up some more Silvers", because otherwise your deck is just not going to produce enough coin early enough.
But that's the thing - you shouldn't really pick up more silvers. Going out of your way like this will actually tend to make your deck worse, not better. Beyond that, I think it's incredibly obvious to someone when they're in this situation that they need more money - you see it at the end of your turn, oh, you don't have enough money, better get some so I should have it next turn. Doesn't need to be written in an article.
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And sure, HG isn't Goons, but you still want them as early as you can get them.  I'm just saying that some playstyles lend more easily to getting $6 early, and that's just something you should take into account.  Just because it's "just like getting any other $6 card" doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning.
I disagree. I think people can see that for themselves. Saying "it costs 6, take that into account" is really an insult to their intelligence. How much else do we need to spell out? "It tells you to draw four cards. This means that when you play it, you get to take four cards from the top of your deck, and put them into your hand - unless you don't have four cards left in your deck, in which case you can only draw as many as you have left." I actually, genuinely think my second sentence here is no less helpful than the first.

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And how about next time, instead of just kind of sulking and saying "yeah it's okay", you actually come up front with this sort of criticism while I'm still writing the article?  I don't mind criticism - I want to know what needs to be improved - isn't that why we're all here?  What I *don't* want is this sort of tongue-clicking and eye-rolling and implied "man, what a moron".  That's not exactly a friendly atmosphere that encourages continued posting.

I DIDN'T SAY IT'S OKAY. People kept telling you things to change, you would make some changes to the article, but you didn't really address the problem. Eventually we stopped suggesting things, because it wasn't really going anywhere. The article is not very much better for it, it's still missing the point. And we didn't apparently feel like putting in the effort to write the article ourselves. That doesn't mean we feel like it's in a good spot. To continue to try to tell you what's wrong with it both seemed a little mean and a lot pointless to me. I can't actually speak for anyone else. But when it seems like the advice is annoying, *that* is what leads to people making jokes. And I've spent way more time on this than I'd like this morning, but I have been starting to get a bit fed up with you insisting that you take criticism without actually taking it as well as the rather mean-spirited jokes from others. I can understand both perspectives - it's very easy to naturally get defensive, and it's very easy to get frustrated when someone is being stubborn and not listening. I think everyone - myself included - needs to grow up a bit.

werothegreat

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2015, 10:56:10 am »
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Alright.  I'm going to start the article over from scratch.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2015, 10:59:40 am »
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Oh my god. Calm your tits people! We are friends, not enemies. Correct with kindness, not with harsh criticism, even if the article is not up to your standards.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2015, 11:01:35 am »
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Oh my god. Calm your tits people! We are friends, not enemies. Correct with kindness, not with harsh criticism, even if the article is not up to your standards.

The tone you're using here is not helping the situation.

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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2015, 11:10:41 am »
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I just don't like fighting in general if it can be avoided. I know there will be disagreements, but there's nothing here worth fighting over. It's a game. I love this community and I would love for it to continue to be a great community. People make mistakes sometimes, and I think others tend to forget that.
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Re: Hunting Grounds
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2015, 11:15:11 am »
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tits

Theory move this thread to RSP kthnxbai.
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