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[werothegreat]

Hunting Grounds has the highest draw without penalty in the game, and a cost to match.  Along with that, it has an on-trash ability that can give you an edge in points in the right kingdom.

How does it compare to other terminal draw cards? The baseline here is Smithy.  To increase my hand by 6 cards (and still have Actions left for other things), I'd need to play 3 Villages and 3 Smithies.  I can get the same effect with 2 Villages and 2 Hunting Grounds.  However, Hunting Grounds' cost means that you (normally) can't open with it, and if there's a cheaper draw card in the kingdom, it's perfectly reasonable to go for those first and get Hunting Grounds later.  In some games, you may find yourself picking up HG after you've already set up your engine to ensure its reliability as you start to green.  Also, just because Hunting Grounds draw *more* than other cards, doesn't mean you can get by with *less* of them.  Hunting Grounds has the same chance to line up with a Village as every other draw card in a 5-card hand, and 3 Villages + 3 HGs means I've increased my hand by *9* cards.

Note that Hunting Grounds high cost makes it ill-suited to big money and slogs.

What about the on-trash ability?  Trash-for-benefit cards love Hunting Grounds.  If you're at a point where you're trashing Golds and engine pieces for Victory cards anyway, Hunting Grounds is a prime target, since it nets you 3 more points every time.  In fact, you might pick up extra HGs in the mid to late game just to stock up on fodder; if you have an engine that relies on other draw cards, you should consider picking up HG just to trash, as long as the right TfB cards are in the kingdom.  Whether to go with the Duchy or the three Estates will depend on the game state and the kingdom; taking the Estates can help empty another pile, so be on the lookout for that.

When should I start trashing HG?  As close to your last turn as possible, preferably on your last turn.  While you may want to start trashing Golds to TfB cards as you move from mid to late game, HG's draw is usually much more useful to you until the very end of the game.

Other interesting interactions:
* Hermit can trash HG from the discard, so you don't have to ponder trashing it or drawing with it
* Silk Road loves the Estates gain
* Farmland a HG for an 11 VP swing
* Graverobber can both trash (for benefit) and regain HG, sometimes on the same turn

[liopoil]

Trashing HGs for the three-pile on estates is common enough to be mentioned. Also just remodeling it in the endgame is powerful.

[werothegreat]

Trashing HGs for the three-pile on estates is common enough to be mentioned. Also just remodeling it in the endgame is powerful.

Hmm.  Was not aware of that.  Will mention.

[pubby]

I thought HG big money was actually slower than Smithy BM, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's nothing special. I think HG is more suited towards engines than money.

Also, Farmland is probably worth mentioning. Farmland-ing a HG is an 11 point swing.

[werothegreat]

I thought HG big money was actually slower than Smithy BM, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's nothing special. I think HG is more suited towards engines than money.

Also, Farmland is probably worth mentioning. Farmland-ing a HG is an 11 point swing.

Literally added that just as you posted this.

[werothegreat]

http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20150315/log.505c6195a2e6c78ad2ed5a99.1426435997545.txt

4th Province on turn 15, though I probably got distracted by Royal Seal.  Got my Hunting Grounds on turn 3 after a Silver/Silver open.

EDIT: I also explicitly ignored Quarry, to see how well Hunting Grounds fared without.

[WanderingWinder]

I don't know why people think Hunting Grounds is good in BM. It's just about the worst Smithy variant for that. It's so, so much better in engines.

[-Stef-]

My favorite hunting grounds article would be just an image of the card. Nothing to add.

but since you're not going to do that anyway:

• +4 draw in stead of +3 draw is very significant in engines, where you want to draw your deck. It's HGs best case scenario, and the only one where it shines.
  3 x Village + 3 x Smithy - draws 6 cards - costs $21.
  2 x Village + 2 x Hunting Grounds - draws 6 cards - costs $18.
  In the comparison between hunting grounds and any other draw card, this is Hunting Grounds worst case scenario.
  If the village costs more then $3, the "Smithy" more then $4, or the village doesn't draw - it only gets better.
• end game: mention hermit
• I don't get the anti-synergy with +buy at all. In fact I would reverse it - I get this card more often if buys are restricted.

[liopoil]

Hunting Grounds is almost never the best BM card on the board. Its price conflicts with gold, and you have a reasonable chance of spending your first ~5 turns buying 5 silvers. As others said, it's just really bad. Its a great engine card, but since you will have fewer of them than you would have a cheaper draw card it can sometimes be harder to kick off.

[werothegreat]

My favorite hunting grounds article would be just an image of the card. Nothing to add.

but since you're not going to do that anyway:

• +4 draw in stead of +3 draw is very significant in engines, where you want to draw your deck. It's HGs best case scenario, and the only one where it shines.
  3 x Village + 3 x Smithy - draws 6 cards - costs $21.
  2 x Village + 2 x Hunting Grounds - draws 6 cards - costs $18.
  In the comparison between hunting grounds and any other draw card, this is Hunting Grounds worst case scenario.
  If the village costs more then $3, the "Smithy" more then $4, or the village doesn't draw - it only gets better.
• end game: mention hermit
• I don't get the anti-synergy with +buy at all. In fact I would reverse it - I get this card more often if buys are restricted.

Added some caveats to the BM portion (would it be better to simply take it out entirely?), added Hermit, emphasized engine play more.  As for the +Buy, in a good Hunting Grounds engine, you're making more than $10 a turn.  All that extra is wasted if you don't have Buys, so what was the point in going for it in the first place?  I understand that lack of +Buy would encourage you to go for fewer, more expensive cards, but once you have those more expensive cards, you still need a better plan than just throwing away money.

[Jack Rudd]

Does Haggler count as a synergy here? Hunting Grounds looks as if it could be a lot more powerful if you can pick up a Festival/Bazaar/City for free with it.

[WanderingWinder]

Let me put it this way: if I were writing this article, I wouldn't have a lot to say, but what I would say is that it is a bad card for Big Money. It will almost never be the best BM on a board, and because it is good in engines, it will encourage engines. Actually, about the only other thing I would add is that its effect is closer to 50% better than smithy than the 33% it looks like. I mean, basically, it draws. It does what draw cards do.

I think Stef's point isn't that it's good with NO +buy, but if there isn't much - the reason for this is, if +buy is plentiful, you are more likely to be fine with getting lots of cheap components, it doesn't so much matter if you have one big one. But without much, you need to make the most of your +buy economy, so Hunting Grounds does work.

Cost reducers have no particular synergy with this card. Having other actions make coin also has no real synergy here. Sure, it may be good together, but there's no particular synergy.

[Awaclus]

Does Haggler count as a synergy here? Hunting Grounds looks as if it could be a lot more powerful if you can pick up a Festival/Bazaar/City for free with it.

You'll also get a lot of value out of Province buys when you Haggle HGs.

[werothegreat]

Got rid of the BM paragraph, added a paragraph directly comparing HG/Smithy and talking about the type of +Buy it's good with.

[DG]

I think the trashing for vp is a important feature of hunting grounds. Since the card is at cost 6, it is expensive to buy and cannot usually be gained with altar or workshop type cards. It is however still accessible with 'trash and gain' type cards such as remodel, procession, stonemason, and those cards will not only help you gain the hunting grounds but also help you to trash it for vp in the last turn.

Furthermore, when you're building an engine you ideally add scoring capability while you are adding the components. Providing you can trash it, the hunting grounds does that for you.

[WanderingWinder]

I think the trashing for vp is a important feature of hunting grounds. Since the card is at cost 6, it is expensive to buy and cannot usually be gained with altar or workshop type cards. It is however still accessible with 'trash and gain' type cards such as remodel, procession, stonemason, and those cards will not only help you gain the hunting grounds but also help you to trash it for vp in the last turn.

Furthermore, when you're building an engine you ideally add scoring capability while you are adding the components. Providing you can trash it, the hunting grounds does that for you.

I have to agree. A play pattern I often find in games with HG and Trash for Benefit is that you should very very often overbuild with extra Hunting Grounds as the game comes close to the end - it increases the reliability of your engine, and then when you get through your deck, the extra ones are payload and/or pile control.

[werothegreat]

Made some more changes.

[blueblimp]

Actually, about the only other thing I would add is that its effect is closer to 50% better than smithy than the 33% it looks like.

There's even an argument for the effect being about twice as good as Smithy's. Suppose we say 1 action and 1 card are worth about the same, which is very rough, but captures how Village, Smithy, and Laboratory all net you +1 after including the -1 action -1 card that you spent to play it. (Village nets +1 action, Smithy nets +2 cards -1 action, Laboratory nets +1 card. Village and Smithy cost about the same amount, while Lab costs more because it's more reliable.) Hunting Grounds, on the other hand, nets you +2 via +3 cards -1 action, which is twice as much. The reason you only see a 50% better effect is that there's no super-village to pair it with (which would be something giving you +3 actions +1 card when you play it).

[werothegreat]

Any other critiques on the article as it stands?

[Mic Qsenoch]

You seem to write from the perspective that the things that matter are how much money you can generate in a turn and whether you have buys to use that money. This just doesn't make sense for an article about an engine card. This is a card drawer - it restores your hand size after you've been Militia'd, it pairs your Steward with your Curses, it puts that Mountebank in your hand, it lines your Remake up with your Fortresses etc. etc. etc. Please don't write these things into the article.

There's some weird brain thing where people seem to prefer strategies which are superficially "efficient". Like they would rather get $8-9 every few turns to buy a Province than "overbuild" to a consistent deck which "wastefully" produces $12 a turn or something.

I think it's wrong to describe Hunting Grounds as competing with Gold. It makes people think "gee I've got $6 better buy Gold or Hunting Grounds." More likely Hunting Grounds is competing with Catacombs or Smithy or Border Village or it's not competing with anything.

The little commentary about your view on card pricing and Council Room is really out of place in an article about Hunting Grounds.

Hitting $6 isn't a big issue, but your article seems fixated on it. Just buy some Silvers or Silver equivalents. The price point is also a store of value, costing $6 is not always a negative and Hunting Grounds offers even more benefit for trashing. It is an expensive engine card though, so yes it loves all those things that make games longer: discard attacks, alt-VP etc. etc. etc.

So Hunting Grounds is quality for money, and that one extra card is more than it would at first seem.  As such, Hunting Grounds is best when your source of +Buy is on the more expensive end - Market, Festival, etc.  If there is cheap +Buy - Candlestick Maker, Market Square - you're more likely to be interested in spamming cheap engine parts than investing in a few quality cards.

I don't think the expense of the +buy is relevant to deciding about Hunting Grounds. The other kingdom cards are going to have a lot more impact on whether I am getting HG or spamming cheap engine parts. Stef's point (I think) is just that Hunting Grounds is good with restricted buys because it takes fewer gains to reach similar levels of draw, the on trash ability is extra VP gaining, and the estate can be a 3 pile thing.

There's no special synergy with "engine pieces that produce coin" and I don't really think Procession is worth singling out either.

It's really weird to say it antisynergizes with megaturn decks. Megaturn decks are just engines with really explosive payloads, there's no reason Hunting Grounds can't act as the draw that puts Bridges/HoPs/whatever into your hand.

I wouldn't say "Most often, you'll want to gain the Duchy." I think this would be empirically false for my games, but that's just my guess. Either way, whether you take Estates or Duchy is really context dependent and I wouldn't stand by any of the generalizations you make in this section.

Please don't add random bits from this post to your article, much rather see anything I criticized removed than anything added.

[Robz888]

In an engine, it is imperative to pick up engine parts that field coin, like Fishing Village or Market or even Oasis.  Otherwise, you just won't have the buying power to snag that Hunting Grounds.  Other options are cost reducers like Bridge or Highway, though Quarry would be king here.  Procession can also be a blessing, as long as you're willing to sacrifice a $5 to get your draw, and really any Remodel-style card that trashes upward can help get Hunting Grounds into your deck.

Some problems here. Look, it's definitely *good* when engine parts give coin, but I don't think you're really explaining why that's the case, and why that's the case with respect to Hunting Grounds. The explanation you're missing, I think, is that engines abhor stop cards--i.e., cards that don't draw more cards. Treasures, unfortunately, are stop cards. So you have this dilemma where you need to buy Treasures to add to your purchasing power, but you don't want to add more stop cards. So money baked into the engine pieces, your Peddlers and Fishing Villages, etc., helps you avoid this. But it's not really *imperative* to have engine pieces give coin, if you are adding enough draw to absorb terminal sources of coin. So it's kinda board dependent, and doesn't have much to do with Hunting Grounds itself.

On a related note, cost reducers are not like particularly great for Hunting Grounds, or at least not better than they are for any other card. In a sense, cost reducers are actually *worse* when you're going after a pricey card (compared to going after a cheap card), because cost reducers can more easily reduce cheap cards to $0, at which point they become free contingent on buys. It takes more work to make Hunting Grounds free. I mean, it's not particularly hard to hit $6 by just buying Treasure... you can open Silver/Silver and have some chance of getting there Turn 3. You make it sound like this is an impossible price point.

And I don't understand the Procession shout out, either. I mean, that's a fine way to get Hunting Grounds, but not a noteworthy one.

Hunting Grounds is in most respects a fairly straightforward card. The part that's not straightforward is the on-trash ability, which is very relevant but kinda just glossed over here. I mean, you talk about that in an unsophisticated way, i.e., "buying Farmland adds 11 points," etc., and say to consider cashing in when you get closer to the end of the game. Which is fine advice, but not really earth shattering. Here's the advice you should give here: Hunting Grounds (with a trash-for-benefit) allows you to trade-in your engine piece for VP and value at the endgame, essentially conserving points and delaying your need to green, which is huge in an engine. So, like, say you're drawing your deck (but not like super overboard drawing it) and you are producing enough for Province+. So you don't have to full-on green now, you can buy a Hunting Grounds, which will convert to points later, and in the meantime keep your deck in tact. Remember, you don't want stop cards: Victory Cards are stop cards, Hunting Grounds that become VP later are not.

[Donald X.]

$6+ cards are the least common Kingdom cards (aside from Potion cards), and for good reason: they directly compete with Gold.

It's possible that you're saying this because I said something similar back when. Sorry about that. The fact that you can buy Gold for $6 adds competition at $6, I mean there it is, you could have Gold instead, but $5's compete with Gold in like every game of Dominion. Competing with Gold is not really an issue, except for cards very similar to Gold.

I am trying to think of the real reason that there aren't many $6's. Since Gold costs $6, there's no obligation to provide something at $6. I want to provide cards costing $2-$4 and cards costing $5 in every game; I don't need something for $6. So, just not needing it means there will be less of it. Similarly there's always a push to have enough cards for $5; a card concept better serves the game at $2-$5 than at $6.

I think that must be it. Prosperity had a greater number of expensive cards specifically because Platinum/Colony made them more relevant more often. However it's not like cards costing $6-$7 are just duds without Colonies. They just aren't filling an important role via the cost. It's nice to have one sometimes as a mild kind of variety, and then I leaned on them in Prosperity both because of Platinum/Colony and because it was flavorful, just having a bunch of expensive cards.

So: "$6+ cards are the least common Kingdom cards (aside from Potion cards), and for good reason: there don't need to be cards that cost $6. There can be though and Hunting Grounds is one of them."

[Awaclus]

Actually, Hunting Grounds is pretty good at dealing with some stop cards. A few Silvers in your deck isn't a problem at all, you probably won't even want to trash them later.

[SCSN]

Please don't add random bits from this post to your article

No need to be coy Mic, we know you pine for a part in this kaleidoscopic collage of community contributions as much as the rest of us.

[werothegreat]

Heh.  Looks like I have a bit of work to do.