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[Spellbound]

My friends and I have just played Dominion Big Box and it's quite delightful. However somehow we think that Colony ruins things up when someone try to pull off weird strategy (pretty much involves alt vp cards). While we think it is balanced the way it is, it is boring to see everyone goes full engine all the time and vp like Monument, Gardens or Vineyard are always ignored in such Kingdoms.

So finally we came up with a nerf idea:
-Province worths 5 vp
-Colony worths 7 vp

From our plays, this nerf make Duchy more viable, and Colony less desirable. It changes the game pretty much that Colony strategy isn't an auto win any more, but still effective when played right, it is just more risky to try setup your deck when it maybe better to just buy Provinces. We even have someone goes full Duchy early when everyone aim for Colony and did win. It was awesome.

Alt VP strategies are now as doable as straightforward ones, but not to the point that everyone goes full Gardens or Goons always.

Feel free to discuss your opinion

[AdamH]

I know a lot of work has been put into playtesting and balancing these cards. I've never been unhappy with the number of VP that these cards have been worth. Colonies and alt VP cards aren't available in every game and I think it's really refreshing to have games where there is more than one path to victory. That said, I've seen every VP card be the main path to victory, even on Colony boards.

If you like it when certain cards are the main source of VP, you can play with them more often (or with Colonies less often). Lots of different things can accomplish what you want without changing the cards 

This should be moved to the Variants board.

[Awaclus]

Monument and Vineyard are extremely good in engines and not very good otherwise. Goons especially so.

[liopoil]

Wow, this certainly changes the game in a big way, but I think you are underestimating alt VP strategies a bit. Even in a colony games goons is almost always the way to go, and vineyards is still a force to be reckoned with. That said, this variant doesn't break the game or anything, so go for it if it makes games more enjoyable.

[Archetype]

Usually when I play with alt vp it isn't ignored. For some (Gardens, Vineyard, Goons, etc.), they win over Provinces. So I don't think changing Pronivices and Colonies to make alt vp more viable is necessary. That said, I do think making colonies worth fewer VP is an interesting variant since gaining those do tend to be the ultimate goal when they're on the board.

PPE: 3

[liopoil]

Monument and Vineyard are extremely good in engines and not very good otherwise. Goons especially so.

Goons is usually still important even in BM, and monument can be okay in a simple deck too. For vineyards, sometimes your deck doesn't even need to be good in the traditional sense, it just needs to gain a lot of actions and draw your potion.

[LastFootnote]

Spellbound, you're not meant to be using Platinum and Colony in every game. For example, the rules suggest using them only when the first randomizer you draw is from Prosperity (has the little treasure chest symbol in the lower-right corner). Gardens, Duchy, and Vineyard are more viable in games without Colonies.

[HiveMindEmulator]

In secret history, Donald says that at some point in testing, provinces were 5 and colonies 8.

[ehunt]

Monument and Vineyard are extremely good in engines and not very good otherwise. Goons especially so.

I would expect Vineyard + junk 2's + buy (say candlestick maker + herbalist) is better than most big money strategies even in the absence of engine components... am I wrong?

[markusin]

In secret history, Donald says that at some point in testing, provinces were 5 and colonies 8.

I remember Donald mentioning that he boosted Provinces to 6VP to weaken Duchy-heavy strategies. If boosting the relative worth of Duchies is desirable then making Provinces 5 VP does the trick. I don't remember why Donald increased the VP worth of Colonies. 7VP for Colonies seems a bit extreme, but 8VP may be enough to accomplish what the OP had in mind.

[pacovf]

Colony: This always cost $11. Originally it made 8 VP. At the time Province was worth 5 VP. When Province went up to 6 VP, I changed this to 9 VP. It stayed like that for a while. 9 VP seemed like a good spot for making both Colony and Province viable in Colony games. In development, Valerie and Dale really wanted it to be worth 10 VP. 1 - 3 - 6 - 10! Except, the 1 and 3 there really don't mean much; Estate and Duchy are not bargains. For a while I said, sure, maybe 9 VP isn't the right value, but you know, it sure has seemed good in testing so far. And it had. It had seemed just fine. I finally tested it at 10 VP anyway though. And well, it usually didn't make a difference in who won, and it made counting scores easier, and it looks prettier. And attacks and rush strategies already push you away from Colony; it's fine if some games you really don't want to stop at Provinces. So 10 VP it is.

[qmech]

Whatever the prices and values of VP cards you fall into one of two situations: either one strategy is better, or it doesn't matter what you choose as your main source of VP.  Of the first cases I prefer the prices/values where the most expensive cards are best, as you then have the time to do the most interesting things with your deck.  I don't like the second case at all—you might as well go and play Ascension.

I haven't played much Ascension so this might be unfair, but I think I'm among friends here.

[Marcory]

The thing about Colonies is that they're very expensive. Sure, you usually win if you get 6 colonies, but that costs $66. Meanwhile, someone who gets all 8 provinces will only spend $64. All of the Duchies and Dukes cost $80, but it's a lot easier to come up with $5 turns, plus you can gain Duchies and Dukes from other cards like Altar, Count, Upgrade, etc. Similar arguments apply to other alt-VP cards. Plus, it's a lot easier to come up with an engine that buys multiple Alt-VP cards every turn than to consistently get $11 or more.

In some Colony games, Colonies will indeed be the dominant strategy. But I've played plenty of Colony games where fewer than 3 Colonies were ever bought, because another strategy was faster. Making Colonies worth fewer VP would decrease the number of games in which they are worth buying--and in games where they are worth buying, they're still available to everyone.

[scott_pilgrim]

Whatever the prices and values of VP cards you fall into one of two situations: either one strategy is better, or it doesn't matter what you choose as your main source of VP.  Of the first cases I prefer the prices/values where the most expensive cards are best, as you then have the time to do the most interesting things with your deck.  I don't like the second case at all—you might as well go and play Ascension.

I haven't played much Ascension so this might be unfair, but I think I'm among friends here.

But the second case may apply on average without being true in any particular game.  Alt-VP is fun because you have to figure out each time whether it's worth going for, and if so, how to incorporate it into your strategy.  So while on average, strategy A and strategy B may have equal winrates, it still might be interesting that way because you still have to consider which is best on any particular board.

Wait, maybe you're talking about Duchy vs. Province strategies.  That's probably less board dependent, but the argument could still apply there as well.

[A Drowned Kernel]

The other thing about alt VP is that they don't have to be the dominating source of points to be important. In a sloggy game, you and your opponent might tie on Provinces but you win because you picked up a Silk Roads or three.

[qmech]

Whatever the prices and values of VP cards you fall into one of two situations: either one strategy is better, or it doesn't matter what you choose as your main source of VP.  Of the first cases I prefer the prices/values where the most expensive cards are best, as you then have the time to do the most interesting things with your deck.  I don't like the second case at all—you might as well go and play Ascension.

I haven't played much Ascension so this might be unfair, but I think I'm among friends here.

But the second case may apply on average without being true in any particular game.  Alt-VP is fun because you have to figure out each time whether it's worth going for, and if so, how to incorporate it into your strategy.  So while on average, strategy A and strategy B may have equal winrates, it still might be interesting that way because you still have to consider which is best on any particular board.

Wait, maybe you're talking about Duchy vs. Province strategies.  That's probably less board dependent, but the argument could still apply there as well.

I am talking about a particular board.  Different strategies being good on different boards is of course an excellent thing.

[Donald X.]

If Duchy is worth "going for" by default, then sometimes people will go for it. When they do, you don't get to have any fun; the game is over too fast and the Duchy decks themselves aren't so thrilling. It's especially a problem when two people go for Duchies in a game with 3-4 people. So Duchy is intentionally not worth going for (except when it is, and that's fine, that sometimes they're better).

You could lower Colony to 9 VP to make Province a little more competitive. Some games Colony will be less attractive anyway though, and you don't always play with Colony; so I like having Colony be extra attractive by default.

[Spellbound]

Thank you so much for all the replies (especially from the creator himself).

To add, most of our plays are 3p and Duchy rush aren't that nice (or it's just us :p). I have no idea what this nerf rules would work in 2p, but I would go with the official rule in 2p.

My group did ban Colony because it was considered OP (We were all not expert, only played for like 20 matches with each other, we didn't perfectly play good anyway, so this might change). We do count both official way and nerf way, and often there are some who only wins the nerf way. It is good to have someone else win the game in nerf rule, as we are still exploring the possibilities of this awesome game and tend to pull of weird strategies without worrying to much.

[Marcory]

You're of course welcome to play without Colonies, but if you do, you're missing out on a lot of the fun of Prosperity. You might try playing some of the recommended sets with and without Colonies just to see what a difference it makes.

For that matter, you could play a random board once with Colonies and once without them. In many cases, an Alt-VP or Duchy rush strategy will just as effective with Colonies as without them. Sometimes, Colonies will even make an alt-VP strategy viable. If two players are dividing up the Colonies, then a third or fourth player will only have to beat 4-5 Colonies, rather than 6-7, as in a 2 player game.

Finally, you shouldn't use Platinum if you don't use Colonies. Platinums make Provinces too easy to buy.

[qmech]

Finally, you shouldn't use Platinum if you don't use Colonies. Platinums make Provinces too easy to buy.

Platinum would be an excellent buy if you accidentally spike $9 T5, but I'm not sure how much effect it would have normally. Maybe it would give some marginal engines an extra kick.

How often do you want Platinum in a game without Colony?

[Mic Qsenoch]

Finally, you shouldn't use Platinum if you don't use Colonies. Platinums make Provinces too easy to buy.

Platinum would be an excellent buy if you accidentally spike $9 T5, but I'm not sure how much effect it would have normally. Maybe it would give some marginal engines an extra kick.

How often do you want Platinum in a game without Colony?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5903.msg152683#msg152683

As usual the promising thread title may or may not actually have responses relevant to this question.

[Chris is me]

I think I'd just prefer not making every game a Colony game. Alt-VP becomes viable or not viable depending on the set - the presence of Colony / Platinum is part of the set, really.

In Big Box, you've got Vineyard, which can sometimes hold its own in a Colony game, and Gardens, which really can't. That's all the alt-VP, right? I don't think you need a big adjustment for that.

[popsofctown]

I think having Colony be worth 9 VP and having Colony be available more often is a good change.. really it's probably the way that it is because the game was released in expansions, not all at once, if it was some huge thing that was made all at once as a massive one shot, Colony would surely be worth 9VP and would be mixed in according to different rules or associated with a lot more cards than just prosperity.

[Marcory]

There's also Bishop, Monument, and Goons. With the right support (say, King's Court, Scrying Pool, or Watchtower/Village), these can easily beat Colony. And Gardens might very well be a good alternative to Colony in, say, a Mountebank or Familiar game, especially without trashing. And then there's Possession, in which case you don't want a deck strong enough to buy Colonies. Plus lots of other examples that I'm sure others will present.