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[teasel]

i was wondering what's the opinion on this,i tought it was a good idea as it let you trash something every turn,and if you draw 2 trash for benefit cards together,you can always use one to trash the other (so apprentice an apprentice to draw 5 cards for example,salvager a salvager to get 4$)

so what do you think?

[DG]

This can work. University with apprentice is a good combination for that. At other times you need to be careful since the cards can either draw badly (4 salvagers and a copper) or you can miss out on trashing the rubbish because you're always trashing the trashers. Remember also a salvager trashing a salvager will use your action and provide $4, the same as two silvers.

[Davio]

Upgrade is a nice one to stockipile, since it's a cantrip and once you're done with them, you can convert them to Gold.

[werothegreat]

This would work only for Remodel family (except Mine) or Salvager family, or Steward.  You only really want one Chapel (two at most) or one Moneylender.  I'm considering trimming your deck a benefit here.  It really depends on what the card does.  You really only want to spam cantrips, or drawing cards (where there are plenty of villages).  Too many of other stuff, and you may just end up with a hand full with Remodels.

[barsooma]

I'm considering trimming your deck a benefit here.

That really removes all the distinguishing value from the phrase "trash for benefit".
What else could you do, trash to hurt yourself?

[werothegreat]

I'm considering trimming your deck a benefit here.

That really removes all the distinguishing value from the phrase "trash for benefit".
What else could you do, trash to hurt yourself?

Yes!  Every time I buy a Grand Market, it gets Chapelled the next time it's in my hand.

[Davio]

I'm considering trimming your deck a benefit here.

That really removes all the distinguishing value from the phrase "trash for benefit".
What else could you do, trash to hurt yourself?

I would only consider the cards whose name are a verb.

[Empathy]

Trash apprentice on apprentice is a classic for bridge combo decks. Not so much for highways, which tend to be played *before* the apprentice, unless you plan ahead. Usually, a first "small combo" turn of bridge.dec will get the apprentices down to 1-0$, which allows easy stockpiling and usually a next-turn full combo.

On very weak boards, BM-salvager (hoarding salvager on any 5-4$ turn) is about the only option you have. As stated before, two salvagers aren't better than 2 silvers, but aren't worse either when you are not action heavy. And the possibility of cannibalizing gold/provinces when you are in the lead is quite useful.

Remodel on remodel is very slow. Even upgrade hoards aren't very effective unless you have another source of trashing, or some good engine.

[barsooma]

I'm considering trimming your deck a benefit here.

That really removes all the distinguishing value from the phrase "trash for benefit".
What else could you do, trash to hurt yourself?

I would only consider the cards whose name are a verb.

You mean to chapel isn't actually grammatically correct?

[werothegreat]

I'm considering trimming your deck a benefit here.

That really removes all the distinguishing value from the phrase "trash for benefit".
What else could you do, trash to hurt yourself?

I would only consider the cards whose name are a verb.

Moneylender, Salvager, Apprentice and Mine are all classic "trash for benefit" cards whose name isn't a verb.

[Davio]

I know, it was just a random comment.

[Anon79]

Remember also a salvager trashing a salvager will use your action and provide $4, the same as two silvers.

So it trades your action for a +buy.

[GendoIkari]

Upgrade is a nice one to stockipile, since it's a cantrip and once you're done with them, you can convert them to Gold.

My opponent proved this:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-213200-abbd0ffe.html

Code: [Select]

MHPS plays an Upgrade.
   ... (MHPS reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... trashing a Copper.
   ... gaining nothing.
   MHPS plays an Upgrade.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... trashing an Estate.
   ... gaining a Silver.
   MHPS plays an Upgrade.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... trashing a Silver.
   ... gaining a Sea Hag.
   MHPS plays an Upgrade.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... trashing a Sea Hag.
   ... gaining an Upgrade.

Of course, the card that he trashed each time was a different copy than the one just gained, but it looks like he turned an Estate -> Silver -> Sea Hag -> Upgrade. It was epic.

[Glooble]

Cards that gain you gold or silver are good enablers for this kind of strategy, especially Hoard. Also Border Village, since you can essentially get double the Apprentice fodder.

[Octo]

I tried hammering Remake to trash up into Ill-Gotten Gains today, but it didn't work out, just too slow really. I think I probably played it wrong too though.

[biopower]

I tried hammering Remake to trash up into Ill-Gotten Gains today, but it didn't work out, just too slow really. I think I probably played it wrong too though.

Spamming Remake in general is usually too slow; Just like how Remodel reduces your handsize to 3 after playing it (which is a reason why Remodel is slow), Remake reduces it to 2, which makes it much harder to buy good cards, esp. $5 cards.

[Octo]

Aye, that was exactly the problem. But being a bit pants I often end up in that situation where I'm thinking "hmm, not entirely sure why I went for this strat, but it definitely seemed better than this when I thought of it"

[Kahryl]

I tried a straight Upgrade strategy yesterday with a 5/2 opening on an otherwise pretty uninteresting board.  Opponent went BM with modifications.  I had good draw luck and eventually got the coveted pure-gold deck but it was just a bit too late and he got me 5-3.

So Upgrade is not good as a pure strategy, but since mindlessly stockpiling it gave a almost decent result, it seems like it wouldn't be crazy to buy 2-3 instead of 1 to trash your junk faster.

[mischiefmaker]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Bishop. I'm not terribly good with this card, so take these thoughts with a grain of salt, but since the opponent-helping effect of Bishop tends to decrease with the number of plays of Bishop, having multiples:

a) accelerates the rate at which you get to the point where Bishop tokens help you significantly more than trimming their deck helps your opponent and
b) gives you a higher chance of getting a Bishop in hand for late game VP

Interestingly, among top 10 players, most of the ones I looked at are either -1.00 or worse Effect With, or +2.00 or better. Not very many top players who are just average. The good ones:

Code: [Select]

Player    Buys Gains %gain Trash Return Win Rate with Win rate w/out Eff w/ Effect w/out
Celicath 1.99 0.33 97.2 0.78 0.01 1.54 ± 0.11 1.44 ± 0.59 2.44 0.15
chwhite   1.43 0.23 81.8 0.48 0.0 1.36 ± 0.11 1.29 ± 0.22 2.33 0.51

Looks like they average 2 bishops when they get them, and often end up trashing one.

Less good ones:

Code: [Select]

Player    Buys Gains %gain Trash Return Win Rate with Win rate w/out Eff w/ Effect w/out
jonts26   1.49 0.17 65.8 0.51 0.01 1.24 ± 0.15 1.46 ± 0.20 -1.63 0.97
quasi     0.98 0.11 59.3 0.3 0.01 1.25 ± 0.17 1.59 ± 0.17 -1.89 2.02
WWinder   2.01 0.26 77.4 0.73 0.0 1.11 ± 0.10 1.28 ± 0.17 -2.07 0.74

jonts26 averages 2.3 and WWinder around 2.6; quasi is down around 1.6. Trash rates seem to scale with #purchased.

Standard caveats about drawing conclusions from councilroom data apply, of course.

[yuma]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-091000-4a53cadd.html

Thought I would post this since I had just barely read the thread. But in this game I stockpiled Apprentices to overcome double Ambassador in a Colony game. My opponent tried to do the same but to a lesser extent. Not a perfectly played game but interesting given the conversation.

I also noticed it was the first Colony game I had ever played that neither bought a platinum.

[Bleachi]

I almost always buy 2 Bishops as quickly as possible, and trash 1 once my deck is clean enough (around 3 coppers left).

However, spamming Bishop seems like a bad idea, and isn't much different than spamming Islands. Even if you're cashing in Peddlers, you shouldn't need more than 3 Bishops.

[jomini]

I can only think of 5 times I have intentionally "spammed" trash for benefit.
1. Apprentice. +1 action and the ability to spam draw cards means that multiples of this are not dead, but that late game +5 cards can either enable mega turns or allow me to drag a dying deck along for just one more province/duchy. The key here is +buy and a reasonable way to build value. Common enablers are things like hoard, highway, bridge, transmute, crossroads, ironworks, haggler, etc.
2. Upgrade spam. I don't think I have come across a case where upgrade is good and where more upgrades aren't better. You can use them to trash out garbage quickly with no collision worries and only play an effective -1 card when you do. Once you have taken out the trash you can either start in on the silvers (normally upgraded estates) making throne rooms, spies, or such ... or you can start trashing upgrades with upgrades (I'm a huge fan or trashing them for nobles, harems, massable goons, and border villages - the last being perfectly fine to do for upgrade an upgrade -> BV + upgrade sometimes).
3. Transmute is a difficult card, it is a pretty poor trasher and it is so very slow. That being said, when it is worth it (e.g. venture) I normally end up spamming the buggers. While slow, I can get some gold and then turn the coppers into "potential duchies". This is rather powerful late game when there is no other way to hit duchies. Also this is extremely good in a duke game where you can buy silver (or even copper) after you have done a quick duchy rush to help empty out the duke pile and crunch coppers (and later anything) to empty out the transmutes.
4. Scrying pool. If there is nothing else good in the 3/4 range I may gain a bunch of trash for benefits. Getting rid of coppers & estates means I can keep drawing. Something like village/transmute/secret chamber means that mostly useless transmutes make for cards I can draw/discard multiple times and late game maybe burn into multiple duchies.
5. Border village. Remodel a remodel to a border village and a strong 5. This adds +action to my deck and gets me a five I may want more than gold e.g. minion.

Most of the other trash for benefits situations stall out if you overbuy. Sure I'll double up on expand or remodel, but if you go heavy enough you:
A. lack support cards
B. don't get to thin out your deck
C. have triple collisions - remodel/remodel kinda works, but remodel/remodel/remodel leaves you with a dead 2 card hand.
D. May delay effective game end - one of the charms of cash for benefit is that you can hit provinces to speed up endgame and diminish the points left the other player can nab. I.e. If I'm holding province/silver/silver/copper/remodel I can buy a duchy and trash a province into a province. If I'm holding province/silver/copper/remodel/remodel I can remodel a remodel into a duchy xor a province into a province.

Long story short - generally stockpiling trash for benefit isn't good without high +actions (either on the specific cards or in your deck) or a special mechanic (transmute a copper -> transmute, transmute a transmute to a duchy; scrying pool & actions) that makes the cards valuable in a way that estates & coppers are not.