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Author Topic: Fortressinator  (Read 2856 times)

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Elanchana

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Fortressinator
« on: March 12, 2015, 04:19:24 pm »
+2

I think there should be a card that can save cards from being trashed, granting any card a one-time Fortress effect.

It's a reaction card that, when one of your cards is trashed, gains it right back in some way. It can provide direct defense against trashing attacks such as Swindler, Knights, or Saboteur. It can power up trash-for-benefit cards and prevent losing valuable cards to high-power trashers like Death Cart and Forager. With the right balance, it can make some very interesting games.

Here are all the specifics that need working out:

Activation: Simply revealing the card and keeping it in your hand would probably make it way too strong for any cost, although Watchtower has the reverse of this effect and it stays in hand. Discarding it seems the most likely  possibility, since that's how Market Square and Beggar are activated and they're pretty good cards. The other option is trashing it, which can balance out a really strong reaction or non-reaction but also turns it into a one-shot, generally frowned upon in Dominion-land.

Reaction: There are so many things that could happen to the trashed card. It could be a direct reference to Fortress, getting put into your hand, but that might make the reaction to trashing attacks overpowered. It could get discarded, which prevents playing it until next shuffle, although overdrawing in really thin decks makes that a non-issue. It could get topdecked, kind of a compromise between discarding and putting it in hand. Then there's the Possession trashing effect, where it could get set aside completely unplayable until cleanup phase.

Non-reaction: Because it can't just be a reaction. Should it be terminal or non-terminal? Stop card, cantrip, or draw? +Buy? +Coin? Trashing? Discarding? Should it be a victory card instead? A treasure card? I have a feeling that the stronger the reaction is, the weaker the non-reaction should be.

And finally, cost: The most expensive reaction cards are $4, so I'd want to keep this new card to a $5 maximum.

Oh and there's its name, but that's a different discussion.

So yeah, what would be the best way to make this idea work? What cool, risky, or overpowered combos can you find with all the different possible versions?

(This idea has probably been posed before, but I'm a lazybum and don't want to go through all the trouble of looking through threads until I find it.)
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Awaclus

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 04:45:15 pm »
0

Beggar is not a pretty good card.


Anyway, the idea doesn't sound that interesting to me. It basically sounds like Market Square except it's weaker, more complicated and less fun than Market Square.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2015, 05:04:14 pm »
0

I think I submitted something like this to one of the design contests awhile back.
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market squire

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 11:10:58 am »
0

From the Dark Ages Secret History:
Quote
Market Square: Once Intrigue had the top half. By the time I was working on Intrigue for publication, it didn't seem worth a slot. I brought it back here because I needed a simple top for the reaction. Before that I tried the reaction paired with Fool's Gold's top.

Originally the reaction was, you could trash this to gain a Gold when one of your cards was trashed. Time has shown that gaining a Gold is not as awesome as it looks (btw spoilers), and I eventually got around to testing the stronger version that made it into the set.

The reaction also dates back to Intrigue. I had a reaction that let you gain a copy of a card of yours that was trashed. To be good enough it had to give you Gold instead.

I still think that there might be some space for such a card though.
Maybe as a Duration (or as a Reserve, when they are finally out)?
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Elanchana

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 12:25:03 pm »
0

That's really interesting. So Donald X was considering a trash defense back before trasher attacks were more common, but he said it wasn't "good enough". Gaining a copy vs. the original aside, that suggests that putting the trashed card in your discard pile (gaining?) isn't a strong enough reaction, so would it have to go into your hand? That just sounds so, so strong that the reaction card would have to have some sort of demotivator on it.

Maybe the non-reaction could be some sort of village. A cantrip village even. Then it could be even more like Fortress in that you'd HAVE to play it to enable a good turn, but in doing so you'd be blocked off from using the reaction. Thoughts?
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TheOthin

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 12:29:33 pm »
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Depends on what's being trashed. Facilitating Province-Province Remodeling, especially multiple times in one turn, could get absurd fast.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2015, 12:37:50 pm »
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Depends on what's being trashed. Facilitating Province-Province Remodeling, especially multiple times in one turn, could get absurd fast.

Well, if you're still discarding the card itself, it's not really much more absurd than Market Square. If you're not, then I'd worry more about Procession chains than anything involving Remodel.
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Elanchana

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2015, 01:58:47 pm »
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Would this reaction card be a complete gamebreaker if it stayed in hand? Procession+Fortress is pretty absurd as it is, so interactions with Procession can't get too much more extreme than that. I realize now that Market Square gets discarded because that prevents it from being revealed infinite times, not because of its power, and that wouldn't really be an issue with this new card (at least not in that capacity).

Are there many interactions with the new card that can't be judged by parallel interactions with Fortress? Maybe there should be a qualifier that prevents you from using the effect on victory cards.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2015, 02:05:33 pm »
+1

Would this reaction card be a complete gamebreaker if it stayed in hand? Procession+Fortress is pretty absurd as it is, so interactions with Procession can't get too much more extreme than that. I realize now that Market Square gets discarded because that prevents it from being revealed infinite times, not because of its power, and that wouldn't really be an issue with this new card (at least not in that capacity).

Are there many interactions with the new card that can't be judged by parallel interactions with Fortress? Maybe there should be a qualifier that prevents you from using the effect on victory cards.

Procession+Fortress isn't all that impressive. It's like Throne Rooming a Village and gaining a free $5 Action, which is pretty good, but nowhere near as crazy as Processioning Processions and other Actions, gaining a bunch of free stuff, returning all of those Processions and Actions to your hand (except for the first Procession), and doing it all over again as many times as you have Processions left. If there is any $3 Action at all, you can even use that to gain more Processions and then you just have to draw the new Procession somehow and you get to play all the Action cards in your deck as many times as you want, basically, while you'll also empty a bunch of supply piles.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 02:09:53 pm by Awaclus »
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pacovf

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Re: Fortressinator
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2015, 02:26:22 pm »
+3

Procession+Fortress isn't all that impressive. It's like Throne Rooming a Village and gaining a free $5 Action

I don't disagree with the rest, but you are forgetting that the "village" returns to your hand, for a handsize increase of 1. With Fortress in hand, Procession becomes:

UniverCity
+2 cards
+4 actions
Gain a 5$ card
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