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Author Topic: Blackrock Mountain Discussion  (Read 41142 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Depths Discussion
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2015, 01:23:42 pm »
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2 new cards. Shaman one looks interesting. Warriror one looks like they're trying to push an aggro thing with that and grim patron, but meh.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/18252973
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Depths Discussion
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2015, 01:56:15 pm »
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Grim Patron is a control card, not an aggro card.  It's 3 attack for 5 mana, to get it to do more than that you have to have a fistful of cards in hand so that tilts it towards needing to be in a control deck that's not dumping its hand so much.  Proccing Grim Patron just once or twice isn't enough, that's a bad Silver Hand Knight.
I guess Blizzard's design philosophy is often murky so you could assume they -want- Grim Patron to be an aggro card and yeah maybe they are crazy enough to think that's what it is.  I find that doubtful as an actual outcome though.

Axe Flinger has poor board presence as a turn 4 play, but maybe just enough to be plan B turn 4 play in a deck where his primary purpose is to be a Mind Blast instead of a minion with turn 7 Axe Flinger/Bouncing Blade.  Maybe a 1-of for each.  It gets past taunts, which is why aggro Warrior likes Spellbreaker, but it's better at picking up the pieces after a Watcherflame or Pyroquality
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Depths Discussion
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2015, 02:43:07 pm »
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Im personally more interested in the Shaman card. It looks strong. Often it was overload that stops burst turns, Although With overload 2 its not great. It's only great is overload 3, so I think it will be tried with Earth Elementals.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Blackrock Depths Discussion
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2015, 02:46:51 pm »
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Grim Patron is a control card, not an aggro card.  It's 3 attack for 5 mana, to get it to do more than that you have to have a fistful of cards in hand so that tilts it towards needing to be in a control deck that's not dumping its hand so much.  Proccing Grim Patron just once or twice isn't enough, that's a bad Silver Hand Knight.
I guess Blizzard's design philosophy is often murky so you could assume they -want- Grim Patron to be an aggro card and yeah maybe they are crazy enough to think that's what it is.  I find that doubtful as an actual outcome though.

I don't see it having a place in control warrior and its too slow for aggro. It could have a place in a deck centered around warsong commander, though.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Blackrock Depths Discussion
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2015, 03:54:04 pm »
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Im personally more interested in the Shaman card. It looks strong. Often it was overload that stops burst turns, Although With overload 2 its not great. It's only great is overload 3, so I think it will be tried with Earth Elementals.

I think if it's going to be useful, it would be with big tempo turns late game, like allowing you to play multiple overload cards in one turn and then use it as an innervate on the follow-up turn. Like Neptulon + Feral Spirit into Lava Shock + 8 mana worth of Murlocs. Just being a mid-game Backstab is probably not doing enough.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Depths Discussion
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2015, 04:11:39 pm »
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Im personally more interested in the Shaman card. It looks strong. Often it was overload that stops burst turns, Although With overload 2 its not great. It's only great is overload 3, so I think it will be tried with Earth Elementals.

I think if it's going to be useful, it would be with big tempo turns late game, like allowing you to play multiple overload cards in one turn and then use it as an innervate on the follow-up turn. Like Neptulon + Feral Spirit into Lava Shock + 8 mana worth of Murlocs. Just being a mid-game Backstab is probably not doing enough.
I'm gonna be gutsy and say mid-game Backstab is doing enough for Shaman.  Shaman has some really great options for card advantage and virtual card advantage through Neptulon, unusually good Drake usage, Elementals, and some nice weapons.  Good card advantage sources and highly mana efficient cards go hand in hand.  Backstab forces Rogue to run Sprint to refill, leaving the Rogue sadface that they are paying so much for Sprint (whenever it misses Preparation, at least, a painful risk).  Shaman Backstab forces Shaman to run Neptulon which doesn't have to collide with anything to do its thang, or the Azure Drakes that are similarly more consistent.

It's definitely a weaker card than Backstab, but it's in a class with fuller suite of card advantage options, so it will be more powerful than Backstab in the context of its class.  Just like Warlock double-backstab e.g. soulfire had to be nerfed because it appeared alongside Life Tap.  Just like Mechwarper openings that are supported by Duplicate and Antonidas are beastly harbingers of doom, but Mechwarper openings in poor can't-have-nice-drawy-things hunter is terrible on a way that absolutely has to go beyond Blastmage>Leaper.

I think the card might turn out to be a 2-of due to that niche in spite of the frightfully poor way it stacks with itself.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2015, 04:15:13 pm »
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https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/575346406266793984

Apparently it's better than I thought. It can save mana next turn as well.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2015, 04:21:45 pm »
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https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/575346406266793984

Apparently it's better than I thought. It can save mana next turn as well.

Ok, so you can use tons of Overload, and clear it on the same turn. This sounds like it's going to make Shaman fairly powerful.
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blueblimp

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2015, 04:24:00 pm »
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2 damage seems kinda garbage to me. Backstab is good in Rogue partly because the hero power can ping off the last point of a 3 health minion such as Mechwarper. There really aren't that many minions currently run that have more than 1 health and die to 2 damage.

That said, the card might get run anyway to cancel overload. The wording is unclear but clarifications indicate that it cancels both this-turn and next-turn overload. That could potentially be a huge tempo boost when played carefully.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2015, 05:58:36 pm »
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If you clear out enough overload, you can shoot face with it and be happy
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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2015, 08:22:54 pm »
+1

Don't forget, Shaman has those spell damage totems in addition to any other spell damage minions it might run.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2015, 11:30:06 pm »
+2

I hijacked the OP and inserted card images.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2015, 07:34:38 pm »
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MTG is using the dragon mechanic for a reworked version of Wall of Omens a 2 mana cantrip creature that provided lots of (too much?) utility: (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247400)

Let's see if Hearthstone's similarity is extensive enough in their copying and we get a 1/2 cantrip minion that requires a dragon in hand.  (could be a deathrattle that checks your hand when it dies.  If it requires a dragon in play it becomes garbage.)
Could be 2/1 instead and/or only draw dragons.
I suspect they might really want to see how cheap they can make cantrip minions after seeing Webspinner and Gnomish Experimenter.

Rereleasing new nerfed versions of cards that had to be banned or nerfed is something Wizards of the Coast likes to do, but I don't think Hearthstone has really done that any yet.  Novice Engineer is the only card that I think is so unique that it merits another shot, but honestly I'm not convinced it was an overpowered card to start with. 

Dominion works with the system of, if it's too strong, take it out of the randomizer deck, but he's only ever had to suggest to do that with Rebuild, which most people think is too fundamentally flawed to get another chance.  He did do buff cards though, Noble Brigand and another I can't recall I think.
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Kirian

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2015, 09:27:48 pm »
+1

Dominion works with the system of, if it's too strong, take it out of the randomizer deck, but he's only ever had to suggest to do that with Rebuild, which most people think is too fundamentally flawed to get another chance.  He did do buff cards though, Noble Brigand and another I can't recall I think.

Scavenger instead of Chancellor
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2015, 01:46:57 pm »
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Two new cards just announced:

http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/2zdai8/two_new_brm_cards/

(Didn't see anything on the Blizzard blog, but they look likely to be real.)
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2015, 01:51:50 pm »
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They're both dragon cards:

Quote
Dragon Egg:
1 mana 0/2 neutral minion
Ability: Whenever this minion takes damage summon a 2/1 Whelp

Quote
Dragonkin Sorcerer:
4 mana 3/5 neutral dragon
Ability: Whenever you target this minion with a spell, gain +1/+1

The first seems like it's supposed to combo with Cruel Taskmaster for creating 2 2/1s, but otherwise functions like a weak Nerubian Egg.

The second seems like it's throwing a bone to buffing classes. I can see good combos with it.
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blueblimp

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2015, 03:03:38 pm »
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Dragon Egg looks superficially similar to Nerubian Egg, but it's actually very different. Nerubian Egg is played in constructed mostly as insurance against AOE, as having a 4/4 after being consecrated is strong. It's also good as a target for argus and such, because it usually doesn't get cleared, but I don't think it would justify inclusion based on that alone.

On the other hand, Dragon Egg is pretty horrible if it just sits until getting AOE cleared, because then you only got a 1 mana 2/1, which is bad. I think the concept for that card is more to be a good target for buffs so that you threaten to spawn multiple 2/1s.

Dragonkin Sorcerer to me seems pretty bad except maybe in Priest. Yes, it seems intended to reward buffing. However, the problem keeping buffs mostly out of constructed is not that buff spells are weak, because (for example) Velen's Chosen is really strong in arena. The problem is that, in constructed, it's too easy to neutralize the buffed card efficiently via silence/BGH/class-specific single-target removal. You're punished for having sunk multiple cards' worth of resources into one card. Priest is an exception because power word: shield draws a card.

So I think Dragonkin Sorcerer's effect would be more helpful if it were to put an additional body on the board instead to give you something left over when it's removed, such as spawning a 1/1 instead of gaining +1/+1. That would be mostly worse than Violet Teacher though. So it's hard to see Dragonkin Sorcerer being run in any deck that doesn't already run Violet Teacher AND multiple targeted buffs, and I'm not aware of any strong decks like that at the moment.
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ycz6

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2015, 04:47:26 pm »
+1

So I think Dragonkin Sorcerer's effect would be more helpful if it were to put an additional body on the board instead to give you something left over when it's removed, such as spawning a 1/1 instead of gaining +1/+1. That would be mostly worse than Violet Teacher though. So it's hard to see Dragonkin Sorcerer being run in any deck that doesn't already run Violet Teacher AND multiple targeted buffs, and I'm not aware of any strong decks like that at the moment.
It is a fairly cheap Dragon which passes the vanilla test. It might see some play based on that alone, though Twilight Drake and Hungry Dragon are both already pretty good in the 4 slot.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2015, 05:07:32 pm »
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Sorcerer doesn't look that great. The thing is, if there is so many ways to have big drops at a cheap mana cost that force opponents to use hard removal, decks could have so many big threats that you run out of hard removal by the end. So it could have value in being able to eat up removal. But I doubt it'll be that good.

The new egg is interesting. I'm not sure what to think of it. I suspect there will be some more card revealed that work well with it.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2015, 06:36:46 pm »
+1

Yeah, Dragonkin Sorcerer's ability is pretty garbage, because of the concept of avoiding removal 2 for 1's.  Buffs naturally synergize with having small minions whose longevity you weren't concerned about initially so that you don't put all your eggs in one basket.  The remaining question is whether Dragonkin Sorcerer can get by on being a 3/5 with a good creature type and occasional spare parts tactics.  I think a vanilla 3/5 might be better than Twilight Drake in several decks, Twilight Drake is bad in topdeck mode, it works in Warlock because Warlock doesn't have a topdeck mode.  Dragonkin Sorcerer vs. Hungry Dragon depends on how aggressive the deck is.  If it's a beatdown tempo deck that trying to drill the opponent's life total down to zero then summoning enemy minions is just a minor collatoral issue to you and Hungry Dragon is clearly the better card.  But if it's a control deck that is choosing its 4 drop, summoning your opponent a minion that does an average of 1.5 damage to your board so that your 4 drop can have 1 more health is a .5 health mistake.

The egg is good.  It's a sticky little minion that does nothing on its own but is a good buff receptacle.  Same as argent squire, sticky little minion that does nothing on its own but is a good buff receptacle.  You can hit someone for 1 damage as many times as you like, it really doesn't add up to anything.  The egg seems better than squire.  I don't know if that's enough to revive an old-school sticky stuff like squire + dire wolf alpha, DoA, Dwarf deck though, since that sort of thing is currently a weak version of mechmage.
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ashersky

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2015, 07:08:18 pm »
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How does Dragonkin Sorcerer stack up against others?

On T5 with the taunt spare part, it's a DotC (4/6 Taunt).  It's a 4/6 stealthed if you have the stealth spare part.  It's a 4/8 with PW:S.

Comparable 4s have to be Yeti, Trogg, etc.  If the Dragon type is important, it's probably okay.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2015, 08:07:16 pm »
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Spare parts come on mechs, not dragons.  A dual mech/dragon deck seems questionable. The only spare part likely to hang out with Dragonkin is ones that come from enemy Mechanical Yetis. 
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2015, 08:22:25 pm »
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If you're running the Dragonkin Sorceror in Priest to pair it with PW:S it might make Light of Naaru more viable?

It's not super uncommon to want to kill something that does 4 damage, Sorceror hits the thing, gets healed, you get a Lightwarden that's 3/2 and a 4/6. Not amazing, but synergies make things more viable?
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2015, 08:44:59 pm »
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If you're running the Dragonkin Sorceror in Priest to pair it with PW:S it might make Light of Naaru more viable?

It's not super uncommon to want to kill something that does 4 damage, Sorceror hits the thing, gets healed, you get a Lightwarden that's 3/2 and a 4/6. Not amazing, but synergies make things more viable?
I don't think it addresses LoN's core issue of being a 1 drop you can't play turn 1 or 2.  It could cost 3 and have little change in power level.
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ashersky

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2015, 08:54:51 pm »
0

Spare parts come on mechs, not dragons.  A dual mech/dragon deck seems questionable. The only spare part likely to hang out with Dragonkin is ones that come from enemy Mechanical Yetis.

I guess.  Just looking to make it viable for classes other than Priest.  Feels like there aren't many 1 mana buff spells out there.  Maybe Paladin and a Blessing?

Like, I run one Trogg in my Ramp Druid in lieu of a 2nd Yeti.  It's sometimes a 5/5, sometimes not, but spell caster classes generally want to remove it, so it ends up acting like a Taunt anyway.  And sometimes a Mage might not Poly a Yeti but will Poly the Trogg.

So I was trying to come up with a similar train of thought for this guy.  Making it 4/6 on Turn 5 seems like the best case scenario (out of SW:P territory, strong than 3/5, etc.).
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