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Author Topic: Blackrock Mountain Discussion  (Read 24582 times)

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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2015, 01:56:45 pm »
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Poor Stormpike Commando.

Stormpike will probably still be better in Arena, it's not like anyone was playing Stormpike in Constructed anyways.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2015, 02:20:40 pm »
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The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first though, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

Counterpoint, no one runs Shadow Bolt and it has no special requirements. I doubt it'll see any play.
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2015, 02:54:34 pm »
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The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first thought, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

Counterpoint, no one runs Shadow Bolt and it has no special requirements. I doubt it'll see any play.

You can hit face with the new card though and Shadow Bolt only hits minions. Still not as good as Fireball though.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2015, 04:01:05 pm »
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The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first thought, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

Counterpoint, no one runs Shadow Bolt and it has no special requirements. I doubt it'll see any play.

You can hit face with the new card though and Shadow Bolt only hits minions. Still not as good as Fireball though.

That's fair. It also is any minion that dies, not just friendly. There's the possibility to play this after a board clear which is pretty neat.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2015, 07:03:31 pm »
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But if you just cleared board you're gonna have to hit face, which is the worst use for a burn spell, especially when you're not dealing immediate lethal.  Dragon's Breath seems pretty unplayable.

Super Stormpike commando seems really good.  Like really really good.  Like omg good.  It fits so good into control to have a deck with strong draw power that always has a dragon in hand, and then to have that guy to hit your opponent's board and stop the damage that is coming in to make sure you'll survive long enough to capitalize on the draw power.  I think just Blackwing Corruptor and Blackwing Technician will be enough to enable a Dragon tribal control archetype for at least one class, even if we don't see any additional good enablers.
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ashersky

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2015, 07:13:15 pm »
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But if you just cleared board you're gonna have to hit face, which is the worst use for a burn spell, especially when you're not dealing immediate lethal.  Dragon's Breath seems pretty unplayable.

I think it could be good after the Flamestrike that wipes the board except for Boom or Sunwalker or some DS'ed minion or whatever to get rid of the sticky minion for free.

It makes Flamestrike (8 Damage to 1 minion and 4 to all others) or Blizzard (6 damage to one minion and 2 to all others) a Super Swipe for minimal mana costs against a full board.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2015, 07:27:42 pm »
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Either way, I'm happy Blackrock Mountain seems more control oriented. It'll make for a nice change if decks get a little slower.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2015, 08:24:54 pm »
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Overextending with minions is pretty intense
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2015, 03:36:42 pm »
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http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/18456682

Well, here's some dragons. Nefarian is intersting. No idea if it's a cool card or not though. Really depends on what class you're facing a lot of, but it is a kind of card draw with can be nice. The other dragons are cool too, but neither seem that crazy. The 6/4, and Dragon's Breath, and a needing to hold a dragon for a lot of other cards seem like Blizzard it trying for tempo styled decks with lots of draw.
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Titandrake

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2015, 03:50:04 pm »
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Tentatively, I'm saying the 6/4 and Dragon's Breath are better than they look, since it's a cost reduction effect, and those tend to be underestimated.

Nefarian is...weird. At minimum, it's a 9 mana 8/8 that draws you 2 cards. Compared to Ysera/Cenarius that definitely seems playable, even with accounting for BGH. It's definitely a card you want in a control mirror match. Against something like Mech Mage, maybe it gets you Flamestrike, but you can't play it that turn. So, its playability will really depend on the meta - in an aggressive meta there's no way you'd have the time, unless you got back control of the game already.
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blueblimp

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2015, 04:32:41 pm »
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In constructed, these all seem kinda bad, or at best niche.

Volcanic Drake -- Compare to Flesheating Ghoul. Based off arena experience with the Ghoul, it's not too hard to pump that to a 4/3 on the turn you play it, but doing better is rare. So I see 4 mana as the typical case for this guy, and while 6/4 for 4 mana is a little above par, it's arguably worse than Yeti's 4/5. As a pseudo-4-drop, it competes with Twilight Drake and Hungry Dragon in dragon synergy decks, which is tough. The only deck archetype I can maybe see playing this is Freeze Giants Mage, as a follow-up to a board clear.

Drakonid Crusher -- I can't see this being played if Fel Reaver isn't. Fel Reaver is great in a vacuum (unconditional 8/8 for 5 mana) but bad in a meta flooded with BGH. This guy shares the same BGH vulnerability, but the 9/9 stats are conditional. He's also 6 mana instead of 5, which is a big deal because he's competing against the likes of Sylvanas, Piloted Sky Golem, and (in Hunter) Savannah Highmane. Maybe he'll see play in dragon synergy decks simply by being a dragon, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Nefarian -- The quality of a random spell seems pretty low. It's possible that this might be played, but it seems totally outclassed by Ysera, which has superior 4/12 stats instead of 8/8, threatens to keep drawing cards if she isn't removed (which is a big deal because removing 4/12 is hard), and draws undercosted cards. The only advantage Nefarian has is giving you two cards when he's played instead of just one, which seems outweighted by the worse card quality. If the meta becomes super duper slow, maybe he could be run in addition to Ysera.
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2015, 04:45:12 pm »
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Nefarian -- The quality of a random spell seems pretty low. It's possible that this might be played, but it seems totally outclassed by Ysera, which has superior 4/12 stats instead of 8/8, threatens to keep drawing cards if she isn't removed (which is a big deal because removing 4/12 is hard), and draws undercosted cards. The only advantage Nefarian has is giving you two cards when he's played instead of just one, which seems outweighted by the worse card quality. If the meta becomes super duper slow, maybe he could be run in addition to Ysera.

I don't think random spell is bad. I think it's high variance. The chance of drawing free board clear or removal is really good, but getting something that only works when designed to in some other classes deck is going to be terrible. There's not as many spells that are just middling. (This is just a gut feeling based on examples I can think of, but this could probably be proven one way or another by someone actually analyzing all the spells.)
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ycz6

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2015, 05:51:00 pm »
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Nefarian seems like a pretty clear Timmy card to me. I doubt it'll be consistent enough for either Constructed or Arena, but it'll sure be awesome when it works.

The other two cards seem pretty solid in Arena. A 5 mana 6/4 and 6 mana 6/6 are both playable, and both have the potential to be crazy in a creature-heavy tempo deck. Drakonid Crusher might find some play in Constructed just by virtue of being a Dragon costing between 4 and 8, though of course we haven't seen all the cards yet and there might be others.
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ashersky

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2015, 05:54:19 pm »
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Nefarian -- The quality of a random spell seems pretty low. It's possible that this might be played, but it seems totally outclassed by Ysera, which has superior 4/12 stats instead of 8/8, threatens to keep drawing cards if she isn't removed (which is a big deal because removing 4/12 is hard), and draws undercosted cards. The only advantage Nefarian has is giving you two cards when he's played instead of just one, which seems outweighted by the worse card quality. If the meta becomes super duper slow, maybe he could be run in addition to Ysera.

I don't think random spell is bad. I think it's high variance. The chance of drawing free board clear or removal is really good, but getting something that only works when designed to in some other classes deck is going to be terrible. There's not as many spells that are just middling. (This is just a gut feeling based on examples I can think of, but this could probably be proven one way or another by someone actually analyzing all the spells.)

The issue becomes getting Shield Slam or Deadly Poison as your free spells, right?  That sucks if you are a Priest or Mage or something.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2015, 06:40:29 pm »
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So like, what's the deal Blizz, gonna keep designing cards that are totally devoid of any niche in the game if they coexist with Big Game Hunter while maintaining that Big Game Hunter is good happy yes good balanced card and leave it as is?

I thought Dr. Boom was a sign that they were just gonna have some fatties that can stomach Big Game Hunter, and expected to keep seeing stuff like Druid of the Fang and the new Hellhound that are ok-ish with respect to BGH since they don't cost that much.  But the design for 6/6 that gets fatter is just so literally "Lol, meet this condition and your minion gets worse lololol" dumb that it really seems to lack focus.  Where are you going with things?
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2015, 09:00:58 pm »
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I dunno. You can only run 2 bgh, and if people start running cards like that then mech Mage will be a thing to stop that. Plus these card seem like a lot fun. I count that as something, wen if dragon tempo decks aren't that great.
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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2015, 09:24:59 pm »
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Against BGH, you're okay if you have no minions with 7+ health, or lots of them. BGH is the most devastating when you have just 1 or 2 cards in range of the effect. Still, I can see the problem of giving an ubiquitous card more chances to gain its value.

But like, you can't just stop making cards with 7+ attack just because BGH exists. And let's not forget, they can't all be the best card ever. Blizzard has to design some cards for the casual player, and others for the pro scene. This expansion seems to be toying with the extremes quite a bit.

Edit: pfft I was using the word "unit" in place of "card" in a few places. A sign that I've been playing too much Prismata?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 09:27:46 pm by markusin »
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2015, 11:47:48 pm »
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When MtG pops out 200 cards a set, I don't mind some of them being dedicated for casual play, but the trickle of Hearthstone cards makes me frustrated when they release something that will never be good ever based on its interaction with BGH.

Running 7+'s and winning through BGH isn't just about having lots of 7+'s.  It also matters what the 7+'s cost.  If you lose a Mountain Giant to BGH, it's a negative one mana 4/2 which is rouogh to beat but not necessarily enough tempo swing that you immediately die (Wisp is a zero mana X/1, for comparison, and sometimes the BGH has to waste one mana on turn 4).
  If you lose a 7 mana 7/7, like Prophet Velen, the tempo swing will tend to immediately convert into enough pressure that you will die before you can turn it around, whether or not you have more 7+'s to play.

So six mana 7/X's that don't leave behind something are just gonna be bad, all the time.  It's a six drop that's not a safe turn six play against Druid or Warrior and that's too much of a dead card. 
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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2015, 08:13:11 am »
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When MtG pops out 200 cards a set, I don't mind some of them being dedicated for casual play, but the trickle of Hearthstone cards makes me frustrated when they release something that will never be good ever based on its interaction with BGH.

Running 7+'s and winning through BGH isn't just about having lots of 7+'s.  It also matters what the 7+'s cost.  If you lose a Mountain Giant to BGH, it's a negative one mana 4/2 which is rouogh to beat but not necessarily enough tempo swing that you immediately die (Wisp is a zero mana X/1, for comparison, and sometimes the BGH has to waste one mana on turn 4).
  If you lose a 7 mana 7/7, like Prophet Velen, the tempo swing will tend to immediately convert into enough pressure that you will die before you can turn it around, whether or not you have more 7+'s to play.

So six mana 7/X's that don't leave behind something are just gonna be bad, all the time.  It's a six drop that's not a safe turn six play against Druid or Warrior and that's too much of a dead card.
With stuff like Velen, it's also just really hard to pass the "Doomblade" test. Like, the fact that even Kel'Thuzad is considered situational at best speaks volumes of how the expectations are for high mana cards. Really, "stat monsters" are not particularly attractive in constructed unless they have low mana cost like the technicians.

Honestly, I'm also surprised a bit that they're making a bunch of dry and uncompetitive "stat monsters". Like, even Fel Reaver is not played because of BGH rather than it's drawback. I assume Blizzard is aware of this.

Of course, then you see the 5 mana Fire Elemental and the AoE backstab Rogue minion and I don't know what the think of the future of the game after this expansion.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 11:59:10 pm by markusin »
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2015, 08:38:59 am »
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Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best. 
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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2015, 09:29:14 am »
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Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.
Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 09:34:29 am by markusin »
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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #96 on: March 28, 2015, 10:45:55 am »
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Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.
Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.
But yeah, I'd assume you'd rather have an 8-mana card that is good on its own rather than relying on other minions of yours trading into opposing minions.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #97 on: March 28, 2015, 05:29:26 pm »
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Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.
Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.
He shows up in taunt Druid and Shaman.  I think sometimes in Priest. 
I don't think I can say I see Rag more often with a high degree of certainty so I wouldn't want to call him "situational at best".  I didn't grind all the way to the giants ranks this month, though
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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #98 on: March 28, 2015, 06:02:51 pm »
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Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.
Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.
He shows up in taunt Druid and Shaman.  I think sometimes in Priest. 
I don't think I can say I see Rag more often with a high degree of certainty so I wouldn't want to call him "situational at best".  I didn't grind all the way to the giants ranks this month, though
Honestly, I haven't grinded up the ladder for the last 2 months. I wasn't around to see the rise of the Echo Mage for example.

Well, I guess Kel'Thuzad is a game changer, but I don't remember the last time I saw Taunt Druids or Control Shamans.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #99 on: March 28, 2015, 06:07:53 pm »
+1

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.
Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.
He shows up in taunt Druid and Shaman.  I think sometimes in Priest. 
I don't think I can say I see Rag more often with a high degree of certainty so I wouldn't want to call him "situational at best".  I didn't grind all the way to the giants ranks this month, though
Honestly, I haven't grinded up the ladder for the last 2 months. I wasn't around to see the rise of the Echo Mage for example.

Well, I guess Kel'Thuzad is a game changer, but I don't remember the last time I saw Taunt Druids or Control Shamans.
Taunt Druid is overshadowed by a more force-roar friendly druid that just has a better matchup spread.  Control shaman is hella expensive to play because you need Neptulon and Dr. Boom both to play it and lots of people don't want to invest 1600 dust into a specific class.
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