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Author Topic: Blackrock Mountain Discussion  (Read 21148 times)

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markusin

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2015, 07:11:58 pm »
+1

So hey, Hungry Dragon gives fodder to all those cards whose cost is reduced when minions die. It's very minor, but it makes Hungry Dragon fit better in the context of Blackrock Mountain.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2015, 08:27:36 pm »
0

Shaman and Rogue both wanted Azure Drakes before Blackrock mountain was actually released, so dragons are easier for them.

Hunter fits even less with dragons but it's hard to even think of them as a "class" at this point..so yeah, I forgot to add in parentheses for that to be technically correct.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #127 on: March 31, 2015, 12:06:52 pm »
+1

Warsong commander bug is being fixed with Blackrock. Hooray!
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #128 on: March 31, 2015, 01:59:05 pm »
+1

So, foods for thoughts.  Pre GvG Druid could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck (within reason, e.g. not running pandas), and was considered bad.  Post GvG druid only increased the forced draws to ten, and yet from such a small difference became considered a sturdy second-tier deck.  Poison seeds is cool, but that was already there.  Tree of life is ok but is by no means a win button for the deck (otherwise they'd run two).

Pre Blackrock Mountain rogue could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck also, it is also considered bad.  Post Blackrock mountain rogue will go up from 8 to 20 forced draws per deck.  That's so huge.  It additionally unforces six of its own mills, which will make cantrips like Loot Hoarder in seek of consistency ok. 

Mill Rogue might really become a meta feature.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #129 on: March 31, 2015, 02:18:48 pm »
0

Warsong commander bug is being fixed with Blackrock. Hooray!
Bloodsail Corsair is still broken :(
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #130 on: March 31, 2015, 04:59:43 pm »
0

So, foods for thoughts.  Pre GvG Druid could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck (within reason, e.g. not running pandas), and was considered bad.  Post GvG druid only increased the forced draws to ten, and yet from such a small difference became considered a sturdy second-tier deck.  Poison seeds is cool, but that was already there.  Tree of life is ok but is by no means a win button for the deck (otherwise they'd run two).

Pre Blackrock Mountain rogue could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck also, it is also considered bad.  Post Blackrock mountain rogue will go up from 8 to 20 forced draws per deck.  That's so huge.  It additionally unforces six of its own mills, which will make cantrips like Loot Hoarder in seek of consistency ok. 

Mill Rogue might really become a meta feature.

W/ Pandas and Shadowstep you can get up to 30 forced draws with Post-Blackrock Rogue.

Just to make sure we're on the same page the relevant cards for forcing fatigue I'm using are Coldlight Oracle, Dancing Swords, Death Knight, Shadowstep, Young Panda, Old Panda.

Obviously this deck would consider using cards like Mukla, Loatheb, Sap and Vanish to keep cards in your enemy's hand. I didn't count for Vanish, but it could probably be used to get a couple more forced draws by bouncing Coldlights, and it could potentially (though not usually) be used for bouncing your 8 Coldlights and has a chance to bring your opponent's forced draws up to 46.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2015, 11:42:29 am »
0

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way. 
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2015, 02:38:36 pm »
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I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2015, 04:42:56 pm »
+2

I just started an arena draft with Malygos and Ysera as the first 2 cards. I'm really tempted to wait until some Blackrock cards with dragon synergy come out to finish the draft...
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ycz6

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2015, 06:34:08 pm »
+1

I just started an arena draft with Malygos and Ysera as the first 2 cards. I'm really tempted to wait until some Blackrock cards with dragon synergy come out to finish the draft...
Is that how it works?
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2015, 12:09:08 pm »
0

pretty sure
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2015, 12:11:14 pm »
0

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.
He doesn't have to survive to give you a single cost reduction across your hand.  He's bonkers.
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2015, 12:35:21 pm »
0

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.
He doesn't have to survive to give you a single cost reduction across your hand.  He's bonkers.

Right that is nuts. I can't wait for that card. Someone tried to Mill Rogue me this morning, didn't work without Gangup, but people are already dusting off their Mill decks.
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ycz6

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2015, 01:40:49 pm »
0

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.
He doesn't have to survive to give you a single cost reduction across your hand.  He's bonkers.
Edge case: Snipe + Spell Power

Also, in general, Conceal would get you an extra turn of cost reduction.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2015, 01:19:15 pm »
0

Initial thoughts:
Grim Patron: Garbage, not actually better than Raging Worgen if you want OTK.  Raging Worgen is both better for OTK turns, especially since you don't have to save Whirlwinds for him and try to control aggro without Whirlwind, and he's also better if you for whatever reason decided to throw a 3/3 out there and hope it sticks, since Raging Worgen is cheaper.
Gang Up: Garbage, from my testing Rogue Mill just hurts for Naturalize too badly.
Emperor: Doesn't seem to be garbage.  It doesn't seem hard to play a 5/5 and not die and have 6 cards in hand.
Quick Shot:  Doesn't proc as much as I imagined it would, but it allows face hunter to be way less dependent on owling through taunts because you have such a huge amount of direct damage available now.  Like, Ancient of War might just be a bad card against Facehunter now, Hunter's Mark aside, because by that point your death can be sitting in the face hunter's hand in direct damage.
Arcane Shot x1 seems a lot more attractive now since it can help you get to that critical mass where you can ignore a Sludge Belcher or Tirion instead of silencing it and have a more consistent gameplan that way.
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blueblimp

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2015, 07:11:20 pm »
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The obstacle Gang Up faces is that it's theoretically really bad. You sacrifice tempo and card advantage for a very delayed benefit.

I see a potential for Gang Up as a card in a control deck to win control mirrors. In a control mirror that goes to fatigue, then having a Gang Up in your deck that triples your opponent's Ysera is doing more for you than simply putting one Ysera in your deck. Too bad that Rogue is not a class well built for taking control mirrors to fatigue.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #141 on: April 04, 2015, 03:33:07 am »
0

Played ramp against Coren.  He played Hero Power on T1, puts my Troggzor in play, then whirlwind, coin, execute.  Three Troggs left!  Pretty easy from there.
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popsofctown

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #142 on: April 04, 2015, 02:47:30 pm »
+1

The obstacle Gang Up faces is that it's theoretically really bad. You sacrifice tempo and card advantage for a very delayed benefit.

I see a potential for Gang Up as a card in a control deck to win control mirrors. In a control mirror that goes to fatigue, then having a Gang Up in your deck that triples your opponent's Ysera is doing more for you than simply putting one Ysera in your deck. Too bad that Rogue is not a class well built for taking control mirrors to fatigue.

It's theoretically horrible, but a lot of theoretically horrible cards work great in a TurboFog archetype (both players draw multiple cards per turn, one player uses undercosted card advantage-1 effects that reduce damage and scale with the number of attacking minions) since TurboFog makes both players draw lots of cards and totally erodes the traditional concept of card advantage to the point where card advantage isn't even a useful model anymore.

The problem is that TurboFog isn't really all there since not enough cards like Coldlight Oracle that don't share a name with it exist yet.  So there's not a lot of Turbo.  And then Rogue doesn't have AoE freeze or a similar effect at less than six mana, so there's no Fog.  Once both those things exist though it could be a good card.


Tempo definitely still exists in a TurboFog paradigm though, so the 2 mana price tag is problematic on Gang Up.  Having alternate forms of Coldlight Oracle would help with that too, though, since you could delay the play of Gang Up and not sacrifice so much tempo early when it matters.  In the current state of things you have to play Gang Up mega early just so you can draw enough Coldlights to even be a part of the Turbo archetype.

EDIT: Turn 8 Earth Elemental->Faceless is soooooooo good
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 03:05:27 pm by popsofctown »
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Jorbles

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #143 on: April 04, 2015, 04:19:29 pm »
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I started playing around with Mill Rogue with Gang Up and it's surprisingly not terrible. I'll put something together in Constructed General Discussion after I've tested it a bit more.
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KingZog3

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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2015, 06:55:59 pm »
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Grim Patron is really good. I've been trying different decks, now using the one Krip featured in a video. It's quite strong. It's not even a 1 turn kill kind of deck. It has that potential very often, but it's so strong at controlling the board, especially against aggro and Dr. Boom.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2015, 07:02:46 pm »
0

Emperor is pretty cool.  I swapped it into my Ramp Druid as a sort of permanent half-Innervate.  It's never, never survived one turn, so it's basically a taunt, too.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2015, 08:16:17 pm »
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Emperor is pretty cool.  I swapped it into my Ramp Druid as a sort of permanent half-Innervate.  It's never, never survived one turn, so it's basically a taunt, too.

I suspect he's best in Ramp Druid because he can let you combo so easily. But he's good in a lot of decks. Not sure he'll replace Sylvannas in everything though, and there are other 6 drops decks like to run such as Cabal and ShieldMaiden.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2015, 08:22:09 pm »
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Emperor is pretty cool.  I swapped it into my Ramp Druid as a sort of permanent half-Innervate.  It's never, never survived one turn, so it's basically a taunt, too.

I suspect he's best in Ramp Druid because he can let you combo so easily. But he's good in a lot of decks. Not sure he'll replace Sylvannas in everything though, and there are other 6 drops decks like to run such as Cabal and ShieldMaiden.

Yeah, it's pretty sweet.  I almost always have some big cards in hand when I play Emperor, so I'm getting discounted Booms and such.  Innervating him out on T4 or earlier really speeds up my side of the game.

I still don't have Sylvanas.  I was actually running a Lord of the Arena in that slot for awhile.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #148 on: April 07, 2015, 12:42:03 am »
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Lord of the Arena doesn't go in decks.
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Re: Blackrock Mountain Discussion
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2015, 01:24:59 am »
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Lord of the Arena doesn't go in decks.

I needed something big and unavoidable at 6 mana.  I was running Maexxna for awhile, but she was underwhelming, and people just left her alone.  I don't have Sylvanas or any of the other 6-cost Legendaries (already run Cairne).  I don't have Piloted Sky Golem.

That left me with (other than Lord of the Arena) Archmage (don't need Spell Power), Boulderfist Ogre or Frost Elemental (no taunt), and Harpy (seems suckier).

I know Ogre is strong in Arena, but seems less so in Constructed.

Now I have Emperor (and opened Mogor) so I have better options.
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