Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[KingZog3]

New adventure announced. I new card. 7mana 8/4, if you are holding a dragon, destroy a legendary minion.



I'm hijacking your post a bit, as this is the OP now, for card images:

[popsofctown]

There's several other spoilers too.  7 mana 8/4 sucks.  BGH is cost-1 health, 8/4 is cost-3 health.  Then you can only kill Rag and part of Dr. Boom (lol...), you can't kill Mountain Giant or Earth Elemental or anything like that.  Oh, and you have to be holding a dragon...

The 3 mana 3/5, though, that's a damn card.  A DAMN card

[KingZog3]

You forget that the 8/4 is also terrible against aggro since they almost never fun Legendaries.

[KingZog3]

Just checked the 5 released cards. The 3/5 for 3 is amazing. The rogue card looks amazing in arena, but all the 2/3s in aggro decks make it seem less good in constructed.

[Titandrake]

Hungry Dragon looks very solid to me, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it's worse than it looks. There aren't that many 1-drops, and I think you have a decent chance of giving them something annoying, like a Goldshire Footman or Worgen Infiltrator.

[KingZog3]

There may also be new one drops that are good. There are enough that are good, like flame imp and chow, where you're actually giving a two drop. I suspect it'll be ok in arena, but not special enough to be used in constructed.

[Jorbles]

I really like Hungry Dragon in a pinging class. Lots of 1 drops are 1 health.

I also really like the 3/3 replicating thing in a Warrior deck. (Cruel Taskmaster, Death's Bite, Whirlwind, Bouncing Blade). 2 of those things properly timed could give you a lot of bodies.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I really like Hungry Dragon in a pinging class. Lots of 1 drops are 1 health.

Yeah but then it's just a 6 mana 5/6, which isn't great. You have to be able to ignore the 1 drop or kill it with a leftover Light's justice or something for it to be really powerful. Like turn 4 on an empty board it's fine, since the 1/1 is probably not going to be able to do anything unless your opponent has Blessing of Kings.

[markusin]

Ah, finally the dragon type means something.

[markusin]

There's several other spoilers too.  7 mana 8/4 sucks.  BGH is cost-1 health, 8/4 is cost-3 health.  Then you can only kill Rag and part of Dr. Boom (lol...), you can't kill Mountain Giant or Earth Elemental or anything like that.  Oh, and you have to be holding a dragon...

The 3 mana 3/5, though, that's a damn card.  A DAMN card

Not all legendaries have 7+ attack though. There's still Loatheb and Tirion and...Sylvanas? Sneed's? Hrm. It's more like The Black Knight but for legendaries, and it could still be relevant depending on what new legendaries pop up.

[KingZog3]

7 mana with 4hp is not worth the conditional kill if something that could be removed by much more efficient cards. I'm excited for grim patron in warrior. Put some unstable ghouls, you could be spamming 3/3s that just create more if they use AoE that does less than 3dmg

[blueblimp]

There's several other spoilers too.  7 mana 8/4 sucks.  BGH is cost-1 health, 8/4 is cost-3 health.  Then you can only kill Rag and part of Dr. Boom (lol...), you can't kill Mountain Giant or Earth Elemental or anything like that.  Oh, and you have to be holding a dragon...

The 3 mana 3/5, though, that's a damn card.  A DAMN card

Not all legendaries have 7+ attack though. There's still Loatheb and Tirion and...Sylvanas? Sneed's? Hrm. It's more like The Black Knight but for legendaries, and it could still be relevant depending on what new legendaries pop up.

Ysera. I expect the card partially exists to have use if everyone ends up running Ysera for the dragon synergy. Not that I'm saying it'd be good even in that meta, but that might be what they have in mind.

[popsofctown]

Hungry Dragon seems best to combo minions that want little runts to pick on, like Acolyte, Raging Worgen, or Stoneskin gargoyle.  Out of those, Acolyte is a card that actually goes in decks, and has the best synergy.

Random one drops synergize with death's bite whirlwinds and brawl too, seems tilted towards warrior a bit.

[KingZog3]

Hungry Dragon seems best to combo minions that want little runts to pick on, like Acolyte, Raging Worgen, or Stoneskin gargoyle.  Out of those, Acolyte is a card that actually goes in decks, and has the best synergy.

Random one drops synergize with death's bite whirlwinds and brawl too, seems tilted towards warrior a bit.

MC tech is worth mentioning because it's run a lot since dr boom.

[popsofctown]

There's no synergy with MC tech until turn 7, since before turn 7 the 1 drop can be traded into the Dragon, unless you somehow stealthed the dragon. 

It's a combo that might affect how you pay the card, but I don't think it's a combo where you say, "hey, my deck has MC tech anyway, so it definitely wants a couple Hungry Dragons", the way you say that Knife Juggler when your deck already has UTH or the way you say that about Quartermaster when your deck already has Muster.  But it might affect how you play the card if some deck ends up wanting Hungry Dragon and also ends up wanting MC tech for separate reasons. 

[KingZog3]

That's what I meant. It may be a reason to favour it over another card, but no you won't build a deck around it.

[popsofctown]

That's what I meant. It may be a reason to favour it over another card, but no you won't build a deck around it.

Yeah, I am busy being excited about "My deck has azure drakes so I definitely want 3/5".  Whatever it's called

[HiveMindEmulator]

http://hearthstone.blizzpro.com/2015/03/07/exclusive-blackrock-mountain-sneak-peek-the-grim-guzzler/

Apparently they fixed Alexstrasza vs Heorics by giving base armor instead of extra health.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Also, does the Blackrock Mountain stuff need to spin off into another thread?

[popsofctown]

I'm upset that they are toying around with Brawl in this way.  It suggests they are proud of having made that card.

[popsofctown]

Alexstraza should just not target bosses because they're not "heroes", they're villains.

[KingZog3]

Alexstraza should just not target bosses because they're not "heroes", they're villains.

Nah, that's just nit-picking at wording. It's "target that person you're playing against, whether it be bot or human"

And I'm ok that they're messing with Brawl for bosses. I'd be annoyed if it was in constructed cards, but bosses can have whatever unfairness they want really. My question is what happens if there is 2 of them. Isit chosen randomly who wins? Or do they both win? Say I get one from mirror entity.

[popsofctown]

Whoa... so I don't currently play magic because $, but I keep up with spoilers from time to time..

The set that's in spoilers for magic right now has the EXACT same mechanic as Blackrock Mountain.  It seems beyond coincidence.  There's cards that say "you may reveal a Dragon card from your hand when you play this card, if you do, get bonus".

It's on noncreature spells, non minions, mostly, but still..

[KingZog3]

Whoa... so I don't currently play magic because $, but I keep up with spoilers from time to time..

The set that's in spoilers for magic right now has the EXACT same mechanic as Blackrock Mountain.  It seems beyond coincidence.  There's cards that say "you may reveal a Dragon card from your hand when you play this card, if you do, get bonus".

So blizzard got inspired from magic? It also seems like a natural progression for Hearthstone to do dragon, since the have the tag an weren't using it.

[popsofctown]

Well they knew the next magic set was "Dragons of Tarkir" and decided to do that dragon thing they were putting off now of all times.

Then use the same exact mechanic too..  This is the first time the having creatures of a certain type in your hand has mattered since Lorwyn.  But both mechanics will have a unique feel do to the high mana cost of the average dragon.

[KingZog3]

2 new cards. Shaman one looks interesting. Warriror one looks like they're trying to push an aggro thing with that and grim patron, but meh.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/18252973

[popsofctown]

Grim Patron is a control card, not an aggro card.  It's 3 attack for 5 mana, to get it to do more than that you have to have a fistful of cards in hand so that tilts it towards needing to be in a control deck that's not dumping its hand so much.  Proccing Grim Patron just once or twice isn't enough, that's a bad Silver Hand Knight.
I guess Blizzard's design philosophy is often murky so you could assume they -want- Grim Patron to be an aggro card and yeah maybe they are crazy enough to think that's what it is.  I find that doubtful as an actual outcome though.

Axe Flinger has poor board presence as a turn 4 play, but maybe just enough to be plan B turn 4 play in a deck where his primary purpose is to be a Mind Blast instead of a minion with turn 7 Axe Flinger/Bouncing Blade.  Maybe a 1-of for each.  It gets past taunts, which is why aggro Warrior likes Spellbreaker, but it's better at picking up the pieces after a Watcherflame or Pyroquality

[KingZog3]

Im personally more interested in the Shaman card. It looks strong. Often it was overload that stops burst turns, Although With overload 2 its not great. It's only great is overload 3, so I think it will be tried with Earth Elementals.

[Twistedarcher]

Grim Patron is a control card, not an aggro card.  It's 3 attack for 5 mana, to get it to do more than that you have to have a fistful of cards in hand so that tilts it towards needing to be in a control deck that's not dumping its hand so much.  Proccing Grim Patron just once or twice isn't enough, that's a bad Silver Hand Knight.
I guess Blizzard's design philosophy is often murky so you could assume they -want- Grim Patron to be an aggro card and yeah maybe they are crazy enough to think that's what it is.  I find that doubtful as an actual outcome though.

I don't see it having a place in control warrior and its too slow for aggro. It could have a place in a deck centered around warsong commander, though.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Im personally more interested in the Shaman card. It looks strong. Often it was overload that stops burst turns, Although With overload 2 its not great. It's only great is overload 3, so I think it will be tried with Earth Elementals.

I think if it's going to be useful, it would be with big tempo turns late game, like allowing you to play multiple overload cards in one turn and then use it as an innervate on the follow-up turn. Like Neptulon + Feral Spirit into Lava Shock + 8 mana worth of Murlocs. Just being a mid-game Backstab is probably not doing enough.

[popsofctown]

Im personally more interested in the Shaman card. It looks strong. Often it was overload that stops burst turns, Although With overload 2 its not great. It's only great is overload 3, so I think it will be tried with Earth Elementals.

I think if it's going to be useful, it would be with big tempo turns late game, like allowing you to play multiple overload cards in one turn and then use it as an innervate on the follow-up turn. Like Neptulon + Feral Spirit into Lava Shock + 8 mana worth of Murlocs. Just being a mid-game Backstab is probably not doing enough.

I'm gonna be gutsy and say mid-game Backstab is doing enough for Shaman.  Shaman has some really great options for card advantage and virtual card advantage through Neptulon, unusually good Drake usage, Elementals, and some nice weapons.  Good card advantage sources and highly mana efficient cards go hand in hand.  Backstab forces Rogue to run Sprint to refill, leaving the Rogue sadface that they are paying so much for Sprint (whenever it misses Preparation, at least, a painful risk).  Shaman Backstab forces Shaman to run Neptulon which doesn't have to collide with anything to do its thang, or the Azure Drakes that are similarly more consistent.

It's definitely a weaker card than Backstab, but it's in a class with fuller suite of card advantage options, so it will be more powerful than Backstab in the context of its class.  Just like Warlock double-backstab e.g. soulfire had to be nerfed because it appeared alongside Life Tap.  Just like Mechwarper openings that are supported by Duplicate and Antonidas are beastly harbingers of doom, but Mechwarper openings in poor can't-have-nice-drawy-things hunter is terrible on a way that absolutely has to go beyond Blastmage>Leaper.

I think the card might turn out to be a 2-of due to that niche in spite of the frightfully poor way it stacks with itself.

[HiveMindEmulator]

https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/575346406266793984

Apparently it's better than I thought. It can save mana next turn as well.

[KingZog3]

https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/575346406266793984

Apparently it's better than I thought. It can save mana next turn as well.

Ok, so you can use tons of Overload, and clear it on the same turn. This sounds like it's going to make Shaman fairly powerful.

[blueblimp]

2 damage seems kinda garbage to me. Backstab is good in Rogue partly because the hero power can ping off the last point of a 3 health minion such as Mechwarper. There really aren't that many minions currently run that have more than 1 health and die to 2 damage.

That said, the card might get run anyway to cancel overload. The wording is unclear but clarifications indicate that it cancels both this-turn and next-turn overload. That could potentially be a huge tempo boost when played carefully.

[popsofctown]

If you clear out enough overload, you can shoot face with it and be happy

[markusin]

Don't forget, Shaman has those spell damage totems in addition to any other spell damage minions it might run.

[ashersky]

I hijacked the OP and inserted card images.

[popsofctown]

MTG is using the dragon mechanic for a reworked version of Wall of Omens a 2 mana cantrip creature that provided lots of (too much?) utility: (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247400)

Let's see if Hearthstone's similarity is extensive enough in their copying and we get a 1/2 cantrip minion that requires a dragon in hand.  (could be a deathrattle that checks your hand when it dies.  If it requires a dragon in play it becomes garbage.)
Could be 2/1 instead and/or only draw dragons.
I suspect they might really want to see how cheap they can make cantrip minions after seeing Webspinner and Gnomish Experimenter.

Rereleasing new nerfed versions of cards that had to be banned or nerfed is something Wizards of the Coast likes to do, but I don't think Hearthstone has really done that any yet.  Novice Engineer is the only card that I think is so unique that it merits another shot, but honestly I'm not convinced it was an overpowered card to start with. 

Dominion works with the system of, if it's too strong, take it out of the randomizer deck, but he's only ever had to suggest to do that with Rebuild, which most people think is too fundamentally flawed to get another chance.  He did do buff cards though, Noble Brigand and another I can't recall I think.

[Kirian]

Dominion works with the system of, if it's too strong, take it out of the randomizer deck, but he's only ever had to suggest to do that with Rebuild, which most people think is too fundamentally flawed to get another chance.  He did do buff cards though, Noble Brigand and another I can't recall I think.

Scavenger instead of Chancellor

[Jorbles]

Two new cards just announced:

http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/2zdai8/two_new_brm_cards/

(Didn't see anything on the Blizzard blog, but they look likely to be real.)

[Jorbles]

They're both dragon cards:

Dragon Egg:
1 mana 0/2 neutral minion
Ability: Whenever this minion takes damage summon a 2/1 Whelp

Dragonkin Sorcerer:
4 mana 3/5 neutral dragon
Ability: Whenever you target this minion with a spell, gain +1/+1

The first seems like it's supposed to combo with Cruel Taskmaster for creating 2 2/1s, but otherwise functions like a weak Nerubian Egg.

The second seems like it's throwing a bone to buffing classes. I can see good combos with it.

[blueblimp]

Dragon Egg looks superficially similar to Nerubian Egg, but it's actually very different. Nerubian Egg is played in constructed mostly as insurance against AOE, as having a 4/4 after being consecrated is strong. It's also good as a target for argus and such, because it usually doesn't get cleared, but I don't think it would justify inclusion based on that alone.

On the other hand, Dragon Egg is pretty horrible if it just sits until getting AOE cleared, because then you only got a 1 mana 2/1, which is bad. I think the concept for that card is more to be a good target for buffs so that you threaten to spawn multiple 2/1s.

Dragonkin Sorcerer to me seems pretty bad except maybe in Priest. Yes, it seems intended to reward buffing. However, the problem keeping buffs mostly out of constructed is not that buff spells are weak, because (for example) Velen's Chosen is really strong in arena. The problem is that, in constructed, it's too easy to neutralize the buffed card efficiently via silence/BGH/class-specific single-target removal. You're punished for having sunk multiple cards' worth of resources into one card. Priest is an exception because power word: shield draws a card.

So I think Dragonkin Sorcerer's effect would be more helpful if it were to put an additional body on the board instead to give you something left over when it's removed, such as spawning a 1/1 instead of gaining +1/+1. That would be mostly worse than Violet Teacher though. So it's hard to see Dragonkin Sorcerer being run in any deck that doesn't already run Violet Teacher AND multiple targeted buffs, and I'm not aware of any strong decks like that at the moment.

[ycz6]

So I think Dragonkin Sorcerer's effect would be more helpful if it were to put an additional body on the board instead to give you something left over when it's removed, such as spawning a 1/1 instead of gaining +1/+1. That would be mostly worse than Violet Teacher though. So it's hard to see Dragonkin Sorcerer being run in any deck that doesn't already run Violet Teacher AND multiple targeted buffs, and I'm not aware of any strong decks like that at the moment.

It is a fairly cheap Dragon which passes the vanilla test. It might see some play based on that alone, though Twilight Drake and Hungry Dragon are both already pretty good in the 4 slot.

[KingZog3]

Sorcerer doesn't look that great. The thing is, if there is so many ways to have big drops at a cheap mana cost that force opponents to use hard removal, decks could have so many big threats that you run out of hard removal by the end. So it could have value in being able to eat up removal. But I doubt it'll be that good.

The new egg is interesting. I'm not sure what to think of it. I suspect there will be some more card revealed that work well with it.

[popsofctown]

Yeah, Dragonkin Sorcerer's ability is pretty garbage, because of the concept of avoiding removal 2 for 1's.  Buffs naturally synergize with having small minions whose longevity you weren't concerned about initially so that you don't put all your eggs in one basket.  The remaining question is whether Dragonkin Sorcerer can get by on being a 3/5 with a good creature type and occasional spare parts tactics.  I think a vanilla 3/5 might be better than Twilight Drake in several decks, Twilight Drake is bad in topdeck mode, it works in Warlock because Warlock doesn't have a topdeck mode.  Dragonkin Sorcerer vs. Hungry Dragon depends on how aggressive the deck is.  If it's a beatdown tempo deck that trying to drill the opponent's life total down to zero then summoning enemy minions is just a minor collatoral issue to you and Hungry Dragon is clearly the better card.  But if it's a control deck that is choosing its 4 drop, summoning your opponent a minion that does an average of 1.5 damage to your board so that your 4 drop can have 1 more health is a .5 health mistake.

The egg is good.  It's a sticky little minion that does nothing on its own but is a good buff receptacle.  Same as argent squire, sticky little minion that does nothing on its own but is a good buff receptacle.  You can hit someone for 1 damage as many times as you like, it really doesn't add up to anything.  The egg seems better than squire.  I don't know if that's enough to revive an old-school sticky stuff like squire + dire wolf alpha, DoA, Dwarf deck though, since that sort of thing is currently a weak version of mechmage.

[ashersky]

How does Dragonkin Sorcerer stack up against others?

On T5 with the taunt spare part, it's a DotC (4/6 Taunt).  It's a 4/6 stealthed if you have the stealth spare part.  It's a 4/8 with PW:S.

Comparable 4s have to be Yeti, Trogg, etc.  If the Dragon type is important, it's probably okay.

[popsofctown]

Spare parts come on mechs, not dragons.  A dual mech/dragon deck seems questionable. The only spare part likely to hang out with Dragonkin is ones that come from enemy Mechanical Yetis. 

[Jorbles]

If you're running the Dragonkin Sorceror in Priest to pair it with PW:S it might make Light of Naaru more viable?

It's not super uncommon to want to kill something that does 4 damage, Sorceror hits the thing, gets healed, you get a Lightwarden that's 3/2 and a 4/6. Not amazing, but synergies make things more viable?

[popsofctown]

If you're running the Dragonkin Sorceror in Priest to pair it with PW:S it might make Light of Naaru more viable?

It's not super uncommon to want to kill something that does 4 damage, Sorceror hits the thing, gets healed, you get a Lightwarden that's 3/2 and a 4/6. Not amazing, but synergies make things more viable?

I don't think it addresses LoN's core issue of being a 1 drop you can't play turn 1 or 2.  It could cost 3 and have little change in power level.

[ashersky]

Spare parts come on mechs, not dragons.  A dual mech/dragon deck seems questionable. The only spare part likely to hang out with Dragonkin is ones that come from enemy Mechanical Yetis.

I guess.  Just looking to make it viable for classes other than Priest.  Feels like there aren't many 1 mana buff spells out there.  Maybe Paladin and a Blessing?

Like, I run one Trogg in my Ramp Druid in lieu of a 2nd Yeti.  It's sometimes a 5/5, sometimes not, but spell caster classes generally want to remove it, so it ends up acting like a Taunt anyway.  And sometimes a Mage might not Poly a Yeti but will Poly the Trogg.

So I was trying to come up with a similar train of thought for this guy.  Making it 4/6 on Turn 5 seems like the best case scenario (out of SW:P territory, strong than 3/5, etc.).

[popsofctown]

Spare parts come on mechs, not dragons.  A dual mech/dragon deck seems questionable. The only spare part likely to hang out with Dragonkin is ones that come from enemy Mechanical Yetis.

I guess.  Just looking to make it viable for classes other than Priest.  Feels like there aren't many 1 mana buff spells out there.  Maybe Paladin and a Blessing?

Like, I run one Trogg in my Ramp Druid in lieu of a 2nd Yeti.  It's sometimes a 5/5, sometimes not, but spell caster classes generally want to remove it, so it ends up acting like a Taunt anyway.  And sometimes a Mage might not Poly a Yeti but will Poly the Trogg.

So I was trying to come up with a similar train of thought for this guy.  Making it 4/6 on Turn 5 seems like the best case scenario (out of SW:P territory, strong than 3/5, etc.).

Why use 1 mana spells when you can use zero?  Although pretty much any use of this guy is sketchy, Ancestral Healing seems like a frontrunnner.  An alternate target not named Injured Blademaster is cool, and the same kinda deck has Rockbiter weapon and Ancestral Spirit.

[markusin]

It feels like they're trying to give Warrior some love, but I like how Dragon Egg can nombo with Bouncing Blade.

At 1 mana though, I expect this egg to be pretty handy, especially if we see a card that can buff the whelps.

[KingZog3]

It feels like they're trying to give Warrior some love, but I like how Dragon Egg can nombo with Bouncing Blade.

At 1 mana though, I expect this egg to be pretty handy, especially if we see a card that can buff the whelps.

I doubt buffing the whelps will matter. The only buffs they will get might be from cards like Dire Wolf Alpha. It's a clear Zoo card.

[markusin]

It feels like they're trying to give Warrior some love, but I like how Dragon Egg can nombo with Bouncing Blade.

At 1 mana though, I expect this egg to be pretty handy, especially if we see a card that can buff the whelps.

I doubt buffing the whelps will matter. The only buffs they will get might be from cards like Dire Wolf Alpha. It's a clear Zoo card.

Yeah it fills a similar role in zoo as Nerubian Egg, minus the deathrattle and the scary 4/4. I predict that Blackrock Mountain will have a mix of must-haves and lamewads like Naxx.

The fun part is predicting which cards will be the must-haves. And at some point, you're going to have to choose one must-have over the other. 30 cards isn't a lot.

[KingZog3]

Thing is that Dragon Egg is a 1 drop, not a 2 drop. That's a big deal, because Nerubian Egg turn 2 can be slow against other aggro decks. You really want to play something with attack stats. Dropping a 0/2 turn 1 makes this a little less problematic.

I predict the second class card of every class will have dragon synergy, much how every class got at least 1 mech synergy card or 1 strong mech creature.

[Jorbles]

But wouldn't you rather have a different 1 drop? It seems pretty bad compared to 1 drops that actually get played these days (Flame Imps, Chows, Cogmasters, Clockwork Gnomes, Argent Squires, etc).

I think it's probably just going to go by the wayside. Well it definitely will in Arena anyways. It might be okay in Constructed if you have lots of deck synergy, but it seems hard to do. It needs a weird combo of hitting your own minions without killing off the whelps you create, which seems hard to build around. Many of the efficient ways to hit your own minions are AOE.

[popsofctown]

Druid didn't get a strong mech or a mech synergy .  Robo cub is average.

[KingZog3]

Druid didn't get a strong mech or a mech synergy .  Robo cub is average.

Mech bear cat is meh too. It's the only class that didn't really get a big mech synergy. But all the others pretty much got a direct buff or damage from mechs card.

[popsofctown]

Great, new hunter class card is based around mindless hand dumping.  Why can't Rexxar have interesting things?

[Twistedarcher]

Great, new hunter class card is based around mindless hand dumping.  Why can't Rexxar have interesting things?

I think it's pretty bad. In my experience, it's very rare in hunter to actually run out of cards.

[popsofctown]

Great, new hunter class card is based around mindless hand dumping.  Why can't Rexxar have interesting things?

I think it's pretty bad. In my experience, it's very rare in hunter to actually run out of cards.

Midhunter doesn't.  I think facehunter is offered the option to dump hand, often, but opts to spam hero power instead to keep handsize adequate, so if you draw this guy and we pretend there's a meta without hex or BGH then you can stop spamming hero power so that you can play him for "value".

But yeah even if this guy was a 3 mana 3/3 that got +3/+3 which is probably about where he would need to be, I would be rather disappointed in the card for being a lowbrow style of play.
No one enjoyed the Hellbent mechanic in MtG ever.

[popsofctown]

The three mana 2/4s with the massive utility are kind of obviously good

[Jorbles]

The three mana 2/4s with the massive utility are kind of obviously good

Yeah that card is super good. That's going to be in every zoolock deck.

[KingZog3]

The three mana 2/4s with the massive utility are kind of obviously good

Yeah that card is super good. That's going to be in every zoolock deck.

Yeah. The mage card still promotes Mech Mage though, although not sure what it'l replace. Perhaps it'll be instead of Secrets. I see Mech Mages running Mirror Entity sometimes.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Great, new hunter class card is based around mindless hand dumping.  Why can't Rexxar have interesting things?

I think it's pretty bad. In my experience, it's very rare in hunter to actually run out of cards.

Midhunter doesn't.  I think facehunter is offered the option to dump hand, often, but opts to spam hero power instead to keep handsize adequate, so if you draw this guy and we pretend there's a meta without hex or BGH then you can stop spamming hero power so that you can play him for "value".

But yeah even if this guy was a 3 mana 3/3 that got +3/+3 which is probably about where he would need to be, I would be rather disappointed in the card for being a lowbrow style of play.
No one enjoyed the Hellbent mechanic in MtG ever.

I enjoyed Hellbent in MTG. ._.

[popsofctown]

Great, new hunter class card is based around mindless hand dumping.  Why can't Rexxar have interesting things?

I think it's pretty bad. In my experience, it's very rare in hunter to actually run out of cards.

Midhunter doesn't.  I think facehunter is offered the option to dump hand, often, but opts to spam hero power instead to keep handsize adequate, so if you draw this guy and we pretend there's a meta without hex or BGH then you can stop spamming hero power so that you can play him for "value".

But yeah even if this guy was a 3 mana 3/3 that got +3/+3 which is probably about where he would need to be, I would be rather disappointed in the card for being a lowbrow style of play.
No one enjoyed the Hellbent mechanic in MtG ever.

I enjoyed Hellbent in MTG. ._.

You probably enjoyed madness and thought you were enjoying hellbent.

[markusin]

It's looking like the first wing won't be free for a limited time like the first Naxx wing was. A bit of a shame if that's the case.

[KingZog3]

It's looking like the first wing won't be free for a limited time like the first Naxx wing was. A bit of a shame if that's the case.

It was confirmed not free right from the start.

[markusin]

It's looking like the first wing won't be free for a limited time like the first Naxx wing was. A bit of a shame if that's the case.

It was confirmed not free right from the start.

The news of the expansion came so fast. I was too busy to do more than glance at the announcements. I'll take your word for it.

[markusin]

Ugh, you know what I have better things to do than grind for in-game gold over a month or two. I should just buy the adventure pack and use my saved gold for efficient arena runs.

"You win, this time."

[Drab Emordnilap]

You probably enjoyed madness and thought you were enjoying hellbent.

I played Hellbent in Mirrodin/Ravnica Standard, which didn't coincide with Madness. (They brought Madness back next block in Time Spiral, but Hellbent was fun without Madness, thanks.)

[KingZog3]

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/18390553/

Well, that neutral card seems pretty good.

[Jorbles]

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/18390553/

Well, that neutral card seems pretty good.

A Fire Elemental for every Dragon deck.

[ycz6]

Poor Stormpike Commando.

[Jorbles]

The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first though, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

[Jorbles]

Poor Stormpike Commando.

Stormpike will probably still be better in Arena, it's not like anyone was playing Stormpike in Constructed anyways.

[KingZog3]

The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first though, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

Counterpoint, no one runs Shadow Bolt and it has no special requirements. I doubt it'll see any play.

[Jorbles]

The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first thought, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

Counterpoint, no one runs Shadow Bolt and it has no special requirements. I doubt it'll see any play.

You can hit face with the new card though and Shadow Bolt only hits minions. Still not as good as Fireball though.

[KingZog3]

The Mage Card Dragon's Breath just seems bad when compared to Fireball. I guess it's okay since you might just want more Fireballs even when they aren't as good as Fireball?

Maybe it's actually not as bad as I first thought, as if you trade a minion evenly with an enemy minion, it only costs 3 mana.

Counterpoint, no one runs Shadow Bolt and it has no special requirements. I doubt it'll see any play.

You can hit face with the new card though and Shadow Bolt only hits minions. Still not as good as Fireball though.

That's fair. It also is any minion that dies, not just friendly. There's the possibility to play this after a board clear which is pretty neat.

[popsofctown]

But if you just cleared board you're gonna have to hit face, which is the worst use for a burn spell, especially when you're not dealing immediate lethal.  Dragon's Breath seems pretty unplayable.

Super Stormpike commando seems really good.  Like really really good.  Like omg good.  It fits so good into control to have a deck with strong draw power that always has a dragon in hand, and then to have that guy to hit your opponent's board and stop the damage that is coming in to make sure you'll survive long enough to capitalize on the draw power.  I think just Blackwing Corruptor and Blackwing Technician will be enough to enable a Dragon tribal control archetype for at least one class, even if we don't see any additional good enablers.

[ashersky]

But if you just cleared board you're gonna have to hit face, which is the worst use for a burn spell, especially when you're not dealing immediate lethal.  Dragon's Breath seems pretty unplayable.

I think it could be good after the Flamestrike that wipes the board except for Boom or Sunwalker or some DS'ed minion or whatever to get rid of the sticky minion for free.

It makes Flamestrike (8 Damage to 1 minion and 4 to all others) or Blizzard (6 damage to one minion and 2 to all others) a Super Swipe for minimal mana costs against a full board.

[KingZog3]

Either way, I'm happy Blackrock Mountain seems more control oriented. It'll make for a nice change if decks get a little slower.

[popsofctown]

Overextending with minions is pretty intense

[KingZog3]

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/18456682

Well, here's some dragons. Nefarian is intersting. No idea if it's a cool card or not though. Really depends on what class you're facing a lot of, but it is a kind of card draw with can be nice. The other dragons are cool too, but neither seem that crazy. The 6/4, and Dragon's Breath, and a needing to hold a dragon for a lot of other cards seem like Blizzard it trying for tempo styled decks with lots of draw.

[Titandrake]

Tentatively, I'm saying the 6/4 and Dragon's Breath are better than they look, since it's a cost reduction effect, and those tend to be underestimated.

Nefarian is...weird. At minimum, it's a 9 mana 8/8 that draws you 2 cards. Compared to Ysera/Cenarius that definitely seems playable, even with accounting for BGH. It's definitely a card you want in a control mirror match. Against something like Mech Mage, maybe it gets you Flamestrike, but you can't play it that turn. So, its playability will really depend on the meta - in an aggressive meta there's no way you'd have the time, unless you got back control of the game already.

[blueblimp]

In constructed, these all seem kinda bad, or at best niche.

Volcanic Drake -- Compare to Flesheating Ghoul. Based off arena experience with the Ghoul, it's not too hard to pump that to a 4/3 on the turn you play it, but doing better is rare. So I see 4 mana as the typical case for this guy, and while 6/4 for 4 mana is a little above par, it's arguably worse than Yeti's 4/5. As a pseudo-4-drop, it competes with Twilight Drake and Hungry Dragon in dragon synergy decks, which is tough. The only deck archetype I can maybe see playing this is Freeze Giants Mage, as a follow-up to a board clear.

Drakonid Crusher -- I can't see this being played if Fel Reaver isn't. Fel Reaver is great in a vacuum (unconditional 8/8 for 5 mana) but bad in a meta flooded with BGH. This guy shares the same BGH vulnerability, but the 9/9 stats are conditional. He's also 6 mana instead of 5, which is a big deal because he's competing against the likes of Sylvanas, Piloted Sky Golem, and (in Hunter) Savannah Highmane. Maybe he'll see play in dragon synergy decks simply by being a dragon, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Nefarian -- The quality of a random spell seems pretty low. It's possible that this might be played, but it seems totally outclassed by Ysera, which has superior 4/12 stats instead of 8/8, threatens to keep drawing cards if she isn't removed (which is a big deal because removing 4/12 is hard), and draws undercosted cards. The only advantage Nefarian has is giving you two cards when he's played instead of just one, which seems outweighted by the worse card quality. If the meta becomes super duper slow, maybe he could be run in addition to Ysera.

[Jorbles]

Nefarian -- The quality of a random spell seems pretty low. It's possible that this might be played, but it seems totally outclassed by Ysera, which has superior 4/12 stats instead of 8/8, threatens to keep drawing cards if she isn't removed (which is a big deal because removing 4/12 is hard), and draws undercosted cards. The only advantage Nefarian has is giving you two cards when he's played instead of just one, which seems outweighted by the worse card quality. If the meta becomes super duper slow, maybe he could be run in addition to Ysera.

I don't think random spell is bad. I think it's high variance. The chance of drawing free board clear or removal is really good, but getting something that only works when designed to in some other classes deck is going to be terrible. There's not as many spells that are just middling. (This is just a gut feeling based on examples I can think of, but this could probably be proven one way or another by someone actually analyzing all the spells.)

[ycz6]

Nefarian seems like a pretty clear Timmy card to me. I doubt it'll be consistent enough for either Constructed or Arena, but it'll sure be awesome when it works.

The other two cards seem pretty solid in Arena. A 5 mana 6/4 and 6 mana 6/6 are both playable, and both have the potential to be crazy in a creature-heavy tempo deck. Drakonid Crusher might find some play in Constructed just by virtue of being a Dragon costing between 4 and 8, though of course we haven't seen all the cards yet and there might be others.

[ashersky]

Nefarian -- The quality of a random spell seems pretty low. It's possible that this might be played, but it seems totally outclassed by Ysera, which has superior 4/12 stats instead of 8/8, threatens to keep drawing cards if she isn't removed (which is a big deal because removing 4/12 is hard), and draws undercosted cards. The only advantage Nefarian has is giving you two cards when he's played instead of just one, which seems outweighted by the worse card quality. If the meta becomes super duper slow, maybe he could be run in addition to Ysera.

I don't think random spell is bad. I think it's high variance. The chance of drawing free board clear or removal is really good, but getting something that only works when designed to in some other classes deck is going to be terrible. There's not as many spells that are just middling. (This is just a gut feeling based on examples I can think of, but this could probably be proven one way or another by someone actually analyzing all the spells.)

The issue becomes getting Shield Slam or Deadly Poison as your free spells, right?  That sucks if you are a Priest or Mage or something.

[popsofctown]

So like, what's the deal Blizz, gonna keep designing cards that are totally devoid of any niche in the game if they coexist with Big Game Hunter while maintaining that Big Game Hunter is good happy yes good balanced card and leave it as is?

I thought Dr. Boom was a sign that they were just gonna have some fatties that can stomach Big Game Hunter, and expected to keep seeing stuff like Druid of the Fang and the new Hellhound that are ok-ish with respect to BGH since they don't cost that much.  But the design for 6/6 that gets fatter is just so literally "Lol, meet this condition and your minion gets worse lololol" dumb that it really seems to lack focus.  Where are you going with things?

[KingZog3]

I dunno. You can only run 2 bgh, and if people start running cards like that then mech Mage will be a thing to stop that. Plus these card seem like a lot fun. I count that as something, wen if dragon tempo decks aren't that great.

[markusin]

Against BGH, you're okay if you have no minions with 7+ health, or lots of them. BGH is the most devastating when you have just 1 or 2 cards in range of the effect. Still, I can see the problem of giving an ubiquitous card more chances to gain its value.

But like, you can't just stop making cards with 7+ attack just because BGH exists. And let's not forget, they can't all be the best card ever. Blizzard has to design some cards for the casual player, and others for the pro scene. This expansion seems to be toying with the extremes quite a bit.

Edit: pfft I was using the word "unit" in place of "card" in a few places. A sign that I've been playing too much Prismata?

[popsofctown]

When MtG pops out 200 cards a set, I don't mind some of them being dedicated for casual play, but the trickle of Hearthstone cards makes me frustrated when they release something that will never be good ever based on its interaction with BGH.

Running 7+'s and winning through BGH isn't just about having lots of 7+'s.  It also matters what the 7+'s cost.  If you lose a Mountain Giant to BGH, it's a negative one mana 4/2 which is rouogh to beat but not necessarily enough tempo swing that you immediately die (Wisp is a zero mana X/1, for comparison, and sometimes the BGH has to waste one mana on turn 4).
  If you lose a 7 mana 7/7, like Prophet Velen, the tempo swing will tend to immediately convert into enough pressure that you will die before you can turn it around, whether or not you have more 7+'s to play.

So six mana 7/X's that don't leave behind something are just gonna be bad, all the time.  It's a six drop that's not a safe turn six play against Druid or Warrior and that's too much of a dead card. 

[markusin]

When MtG pops out 200 cards a set, I don't mind some of them being dedicated for casual play, but the trickle of Hearthstone cards makes me frustrated when they release something that will never be good ever based on its interaction with BGH.

Running 7+'s and winning through BGH isn't just about having lots of 7+'s.  It also matters what the 7+'s cost.  If you lose a Mountain Giant to BGH, it's a negative one mana 4/2 which is rouogh to beat but not necessarily enough tempo swing that you immediately die (Wisp is a zero mana X/1, for comparison, and sometimes the BGH has to waste one mana on turn 4).
  If you lose a 7 mana 7/7, like Prophet Velen, the tempo swing will tend to immediately convert into enough pressure that you will die before you can turn it around, whether or not you have more 7+'s to play.

So six mana 7/X's that don't leave behind something are just gonna be bad, all the time.  It's a six drop that's not a safe turn six play against Druid or Warrior and that's too much of a dead card.

With stuff like Velen, it's also just really hard to pass the "Doomblade" test. Like, the fact that even Kel'Thuzad is considered situational at best speaks volumes of how the expectations are for high mana cards. Really, "stat monsters" are not particularly attractive in constructed unless they have low mana cost like the technicians.

Honestly, I'm also surprised a bit that they're making a bunch of dry and uncompetitive "stat monsters". Like, even Fel Reaver is not played because of BGH rather than it's drawback. I assume Blizzard is aware of this.

Of course, then you see the 5 mana Fire Elemental and the AoE backstab Rogue minion and I don't know what the think of the future of the game after this expansion.

[popsofctown]

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best. 

[markusin]

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.

Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.

[markusin]

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.

Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.

But yeah, I'd assume you'd rather have an 8-mana card that is good on its own rather than relying on other minions of yours trading into opposing minions.

[popsofctown]

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.

Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.

He shows up in taunt Druid and Shaman.  I think sometimes in Priest. 
I don't think I can say I see Rag more often with a high degree of certainty so I wouldn't want to call him "situational at best".  I didn't grind all the way to the giants ranks this month, though

[markusin]

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.

Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.

He shows up in taunt Druid and Shaman.  I think sometimes in Priest. 
I don't think I can say I see Rag more often with a high degree of certainty so I wouldn't want to call him "situational at best".  I didn't grind all the way to the giants ranks this month, though

Honestly, I haven't grinded up the ladder for the last 2 months. I wasn't around to see the rise of the Echo Mage for example.

Well, I guess Kel'Thuzad is a game changer, but I don't remember the last time I saw Taunt Druids or Control Shamans.

[popsofctown]

Kel thuz is situational at worst, not situational at best.

Wait, people are using him in constructed?

I use Kel'thuzad myself in a few decks, like my Bolvar deck and my taunt Druid deck. I've noticed that Kel'Thuzad is really neat with Piloted mechs.

He shows up in taunt Druid and Shaman.  I think sometimes in Priest. 
I don't think I can say I see Rag more often with a high degree of certainty so I wouldn't want to call him "situational at best".  I didn't grind all the way to the giants ranks this month, though

Honestly, I haven't grinded up the ladder for the last 2 months. I wasn't around to see the rise of the Echo Mage for example.

Well, I guess Kel'Thuzad is a game changer, but I don't remember the last time I saw Taunt Druids or Control Shamans.

Taunt Druid is overshadowed by a more force-roar friendly druid that just has a better matchup spread.  Control shaman is hella expensive to play because you need Neptulon and Dr. Boom both to play it and lots of people don't want to invest 1600 dust into a specific class.

[Watno]

Stream revealing the rest of the cards is live:
http://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone

[Watno]

Wow.
Emperor Thaurassan - 6 mana 5/5
At the end of your turn reduce the cost of cards in your hand by 1. That's pretty cool.

[popsofctown]

Hearthpwn is consolidating the new cards as they appear on twitch, it seems.

Emperor Thaurassan is not a dragon, but he's so powerful it seems like he will autoinclude used in everything Control, and will seep down to a certain level of midrange.  He's probably often a 0 mana 5/5, after your rebates, which would normally be just ok if you had a restriction to playing it late and getting the mana rebate slowly.  But what will make him good is the ability to combo cards together, like spell damage stacking and then using spell damage AoE's or being able to scream "Closed Beta Shit" and cast Sylvanas-Brawl Turn 9.

The 6/8 for 8 "Copy your draws" dragon seems good enough in a deck that has double Loot Hoarder.  Not sure about it yet.  Pretty slow and all.  It's not as good as Kel Thuz but it activates your "Dragons matters" cards.

[Watno]

WTF
Legendary. Majordomo Executus. 9 mana 9/7. Deathrattle. When this minion dies, replace your hero with Ragnaros the Firelord.

Ragnaris hero has 8hp, and hero power deal 8 damage to a random enemy, costing 2.

[popsofctown]

That sounds silly but terrible.

[popsofctown]

Seems like the weaker classes got stronger class cards

[popsofctown]

Druid of the Flame seems pretty strong for taunt druid, but in other types of druid seems weaker than Shade.

Actually it might just be nuts in all kinds of druid, not sure.

[Jorbles]

Here's a similar good thread consolidating them all:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/30tpsk/images_of_new_cards_in_here/?sort=confidence

[popsofctown]

Whirthun said that using Gang-up on an Si:7 agent was a really good move.

I really hope that guy isn't allowed near card development.

[markusin]

I am so adding that Paladin draw card to my Bolvar deck.

[popsofctown]

I think the Paladin draw spell goes in every Paladin deck.

[markusin]

I think the Paladin draw spell goes in every Paladin deck.

Probably. It's way less situational than Divine Favor and Lay On Hands. On trading turns, it's cheaper than Cult Master too.

[KingZog3]

The priest cards are amazing. Awesome 1 drop, and the2mana spell I just nuts if you run enough minions that are larger than 3 mana

[markusin]

So, it's looking to be a good thing that none all of these crazy cards can be earned through adventures rather than praying to open them in packs or spending huge amounts of dust.

[blueblimp]

Dragon Consort maybe the best dragon-related card in this expansion? 5 mana for a 5/5 body is nearly on-curve stats, plus you innervate your next dragon.

Demonwrath seems nice in Handlock styles. Hellfire is sometimes run as 2-of, and the self-damage is a big downside against aggro. Demonwrath is cheaper in exchange for doing less damage (but still as much as Consecration), and doesn't hurt your hero. I'd expect lists running 2 Hellfires to switch to 1 Hellfire 1 Demonwrath.

[Jorbles]

I think Gang Up looks really interesting, but I can't for the life of me think of how to use it. Anyone else got ideas?

It's just kindof an interesting idea, but it doesn't seem great.

[ycz6]

I think Dragon Consort is a little bit weaker than it looks, because there's only one 8-drop Dragon, so you can't drop it on turn 5 (i.e. on curve) and immediately get a huge lead with Ysera, Alexstrasza, Onyxia et al. It's still kinda crazy though.

[popsofctown]

Dragon Consort maybe the best dragon-related card in this expansion? 5 mana for a 5/5 body is nearly on-curve stats, plus you innervate your next dragon.

Demonwrath seems nice in Handlock styles. Hellfire is sometimes run as 2-of, and the self-damage is a big downside against aggro. Demonwrath is cheaper in exchange for doing less damage (but still as much as Consecration), and doesn't hurt your hero. I'd expect lists running 2 Hellfires to switch to 1 Hellfire 1 Demonwrath.

Dragon Consort seems like the best dragon-related card the way Mind Blast is the best face-rush related card and Screwjank Clanker is the best Mech-related card.  In that I don't think it will matter because that class doesn't seem as drawn to that theme as others.  Paladin seems like the last class to go for Dragons, although maybe Dragons are so good everyone goes for Dragons, so the last class is mixed in with them as much as everyone else.  I don't think Dragon Consort forces Paladin to go dragons the way Goblin Blastmage forces Mage to go Mechs (arguably), it's just a 3 mana 5/5 overall which is just pretty nice and rather swell, not gamebreaking I don't think.  It's not Equality friendly either.


@Jorbles: How good Gang Up is, is equal to how good Gang Up targeting Coldlight Oracle turns out to be.

[popsofctown]

On the draw, clutching Coin for a turn 6 offensive Alex seems rather strong, ycz.  That's pretty on-curve to me.

[KingZog3]

I'm curious if mech Mage will still be a thing. Or will mechs and their synergy disappear along with whatever naxx brought.

[ycz6]

On the draw, clutching Coin for a turn 6 offensive Alex seems rather strong, ycz.  That's pretty on-curve to me.

Eh, would it though? Saving Coin for turn 6 is like deliberately saving your Baker coin token so you can afford a Platinum on turn 6, or something. Seems like a big tempo loss for a play you probably can't plan for that far in advance. I guess we'll see.

[Jorbles]

@Jorbles: How good Gang Up is, is equal to how good Gang Up targeting Coldlight Oracle turns out to be.

I hadn't thought about Milling possibilities. Mill Rogue could be a lot stronger with this.

[popsofctown]

On the draw, clutching Coin for a turn 6 offensive Alex seems rather strong, ycz.  That's pretty on-curve to me.

Eh, would it though? Saving Coin for turn 6 is like deliberately saving your Baker coin token so you can afford a Platinum on turn 6, or something. Seems like a big tempo loss for a play you probably can't plan for that far in advance. I guess we'll see.

Control Paladins can clutch coin with impunity, aggression against a Control Paladin is tempered by the constant threat of Pyroquality so the poundings are slow enough that you can clutch coin and survive fine, even if pyroquality is a bluff. 

In general I feel like the more I play Hearthstone the more I want to hoard coin playing control.  Exhausting your coin opens up your fast play to a response, I like to wait to use the coin until I can do something to which there is no good response.  Extremely early Alexstraza is one of those things.

I coined Alex out a heck of a lot to win my university Hearthstone tournament.

[Jorbles]

I didn't even notice this until I saw a picture of all the cards, but there's absolutely no 2-drops released for Blackrock. (There's 2 1-drops). The 2 cost spells can take away board presence, but the only one that can build up your board presence (Resurrect) is basically useless turn 2.

[blueblimp]

Paladin seems like the last class to go for Dragons, although maybe Dragons are so good everyone goes for Dragons, so the last class is mixed in with them as much as everyone else.

Dunno why you consider Paladin the least likely class to go for Dragons. Surely Hunter is obviously worse for them? Shaman and Rogue seem pretty awkward too.

While Paladin might not be the most natural class for dragons, Midrange Paladin is among the best decks now, and Dragon Consort is itself a midrange card that brings the 9 cost dragons into the upper end of midrange mana costs (7 mana). It might still be worse than the current midrange Paladin, true. The main issue I see is that there is so much competition for the 5 mana slot: Blackwing Corruptor and Dragon Consort want to go in, but Sludge Belcher and Quartermaster already live there, plus tech like Harrison Jones and Antique Healbot.

[markusin]

So hey, Hungry Dragon gives fodder to all those cards whose cost is reduced when minions die. It's very minor, but it makes Hungry Dragon fit better in the context of Blackrock Mountain.

[popsofctown]

Shaman and Rogue both wanted Azure Drakes before Blackrock mountain was actually released, so dragons are easier for them.

Hunter fits even less with dragons but it's hard to even think of them as a "class" at this point..so yeah, I forgot to add in parentheses for that to be technically correct.

[KingZog3]

Warsong commander bug is being fixed with Blackrock. Hooray!

[popsofctown]

So, foods for thoughts.  Pre GvG Druid could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck (within reason, e.g. not running pandas), and was considered bad.  Post GvG druid only increased the forced draws to ten, and yet from such a small difference became considered a sturdy second-tier deck.  Poison seeds is cool, but that was already there.  Tree of life is ok but is by no means a win button for the deck (otherwise they'd run two).

Pre Blackrock Mountain rogue could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck also, it is also considered bad.  Post Blackrock mountain rogue will go up from 8 to 20 forced draws per deck.  That's so huge.  It additionally unforces six of its own mills, which will make cantrips like Loot Hoarder in seek of consistency ok. 

Mill Rogue might really become a meta feature.

[popsofctown]

Warsong commander bug is being fixed with Blackrock. Hooray!

Bloodsail Corsair is still broken

[Jorbles]

So, foods for thoughts.  Pre GvG Druid could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck (within reason, e.g. not running pandas), and was considered bad.  Post GvG druid only increased the forced draws to ten, and yet from such a small difference became considered a sturdy second-tier deck.  Poison seeds is cool, but that was already there.  Tree of life is ok but is by no means a win button for the deck (otherwise they'd run two).

Pre Blackrock Mountain rogue could bring a total of 8 forced draws per deck also, it is also considered bad.  Post Blackrock mountain rogue will go up from 8 to 20 forced draws per deck.  That's so huge.  It additionally unforces six of its own mills, which will make cantrips like Loot Hoarder in seek of consistency ok. 

Mill Rogue might really become a meta feature.

W/ Pandas and Shadowstep you can get up to 30 forced draws with Post-Blackrock Rogue.

Just to make sure we're on the same page the relevant cards for forcing fatigue I'm using are Coldlight Oracle, Dancing Swords, Death Knight, Shadowstep, Young Panda, Old Panda.

Obviously this deck would consider using cards like Mukla, Loatheb, Sap and Vanish to keep cards in your enemy's hand. I didn't count for Vanish, but it could probably be used to get a couple more forced draws by bouncing Coldlights, and it could potentially (though not usually) be used for bouncing your 8 Coldlights and has a chance to bring your opponent's forced draws up to 46.

[popsofctown]

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way. 

[Jorbles]

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I just started an arena draft with Malygos and Ysera as the first 2 cards. I'm really tempted to wait until some Blackrock cards with dragon synergy come out to finish the draft...

[ycz6]

I just started an arena draft with Malygos and Ysera as the first 2 cards. I'm really tempted to wait until some Blackrock cards with dragon synergy come out to finish the draft...

Is that how it works?

[popsofctown]

pretty sure

[popsofctown]

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.

He doesn't have to survive to give you a single cost reduction across your hand.  He's bonkers.

[Jorbles]

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.

He doesn't have to survive to give you a single cost reduction across your hand.  He's bonkers.

Right that is nuts. I can't wait for that card. Someone tried to Mill Rogue me this morning, didn't work without Gangup, but people are already dusting off their Mill decks.

[ycz6]

I don't really believe in Dancing Swords for mill.  It gives your opponent too much control, lategame they can silence or polymorph it or race it, while early game they can kill it for an early draw that is actually a little helpful for improving their options before the forced draws start coming in a more delugey fashion.

I totally forgot about Deathlord, which is why I didn't count him, so it would be 22 forced draws the way I build the deck. 
Old Panda is definitely too expensive to be useful.  By the time you have played all your cheaper mill methods and have no way to mill that costs less than 7 mana, they will already be dead.  The same is almost true of Young Brewmaster at 5 mana, but I think maybe you could run one Young Brewmaster, he's a 2 mana 3/2.  But probably not even needed.

Vanish might turn out pretty legit.  The best way to get extra forced draws off of it would be to Shadowstep a coldlight oracle to hand during turn 6+, then play a 1 mana coldlight oracle and immediately vanish so you don't require 9 mana and his 2 HP butt is never exposed.


This deck would probably be wanting to use that new Emperor guy by the way.

Yeah, I don't love Dancing Swords usually, but if we're looking at Mill options it's worth considering. There might be so much draw in this deck that you really don't care if they get a card at all no matter when they get it. You're probably right about the pandas being too expensive except for a possible single Youthful.

I think the Emperor would definitely be really strong, might be worth including a Conceal as well just to protect a full hand with him for a turn.

He doesn't have to survive to give you a single cost reduction across your hand.  He's bonkers.

Edge case: Snipe + Spell Power

Also, in general, Conceal would get you an extra turn of cost reduction.

[popsofctown]

Initial thoughts:
Grim Patron: Garbage, not actually better than Raging Worgen if you want OTK.  Raging Worgen is both better for OTK turns, especially since you don't have to save Whirlwinds for him and try to control aggro without Whirlwind, and he's also better if you for whatever reason decided to throw a 3/3 out there and hope it sticks, since Raging Worgen is cheaper.
Gang Up: Garbage, from my testing Rogue Mill just hurts for Naturalize too badly.
Emperor: Doesn't seem to be garbage.  It doesn't seem hard to play a 5/5 and not die and have 6 cards in hand.
Quick Shot:  Doesn't proc as much as I imagined it would, but it allows face hunter to be way less dependent on owling through taunts because you have such a huge amount of direct damage available now.  Like, Ancient of War might just be a bad card against Facehunter now, Hunter's Mark aside, because by that point your death can be sitting in the face hunter's hand in direct damage.
Arcane Shot x1 seems a lot more attractive now since it can help you get to that critical mass where you can ignore a Sludge Belcher or Tirion instead of silencing it and have a more consistent gameplan that way.

[blueblimp]

The obstacle Gang Up faces is that it's theoretically really bad. You sacrifice tempo and card advantage for a very delayed benefit.

I see a potential for Gang Up as a card in a control deck to win control mirrors. In a control mirror that goes to fatigue, then having a Gang Up in your deck that triples your opponent's Ysera is doing more for you than simply putting one Ysera in your deck. Too bad that Rogue is not a class well built for taking control mirrors to fatigue.

[ashersky]

Played ramp against Coren.  He played Hero Power on T1, puts my Troggzor in play, then whirlwind, coin, execute.  Three Troggs left!  Pretty easy from there.

[popsofctown]

The obstacle Gang Up faces is that it's theoretically really bad. You sacrifice tempo and card advantage for a very delayed benefit.

I see a potential for Gang Up as a card in a control deck to win control mirrors. In a control mirror that goes to fatigue, then having a Gang Up in your deck that triples your opponent's Ysera is doing more for you than simply putting one Ysera in your deck. Too bad that Rogue is not a class well built for taking control mirrors to fatigue.

It's theoretically horrible, but a lot of theoretically horrible cards work great in a TurboFog archetype (both players draw multiple cards per turn, one player uses undercosted card advantage-1 effects that reduce damage and scale with the number of attacking minions) since TurboFog makes both players draw lots of cards and totally erodes the traditional concept of card advantage to the point where card advantage isn't even a useful model anymore.

The problem is that TurboFog isn't really all there since not enough cards like Coldlight Oracle that don't share a name with it exist yet.  So there's not a lot of Turbo.  And then Rogue doesn't have AoE freeze or a similar effect at less than six mana, so there's no Fog.  Once both those things exist though it could be a good card.


Tempo definitely still exists in a TurboFog paradigm though, so the 2 mana price tag is problematic on Gang Up.  Having alternate forms of Coldlight Oracle would help with that too, though, since you could delay the play of Gang Up and not sacrifice so much tempo early when it matters.  In the current state of things you have to play Gang Up mega early just so you can draw enough Coldlights to even be a part of the Turbo archetype.

EDIT: Turn 8 Earth Elemental->Faceless is soooooooo good

[Jorbles]

I started playing around with Mill Rogue with Gang Up and it's surprisingly not terrible. I'll put something together in Constructed General Discussion after I've tested it a bit more.

[KingZog3]

Grim Patron is really good. I've been trying different decks, now using the one Krip featured in a video. It's quite strong. It's not even a 1 turn kill kind of deck. It has that potential very often, but it's so strong at controlling the board, especially against aggro and Dr. Boom.

[ashersky]

Emperor is pretty cool.  I swapped it into my Ramp Druid as a sort of permanent half-Innervate.  It's never, never survived one turn, so it's basically a taunt, too.

[KingZog3]

Emperor is pretty cool.  I swapped it into my Ramp Druid as a sort of permanent half-Innervate.  It's never, never survived one turn, so it's basically a taunt, too.

I suspect he's best in Ramp Druid because he can let you combo so easily. But he's good in a lot of decks. Not sure he'll replace Sylvannas in everything though, and there are other 6 drops decks like to run such as Cabal and ShieldMaiden.

[ashersky]

Emperor is pretty cool.  I swapped it into my Ramp Druid as a sort of permanent half-Innervate.  It's never, never survived one turn, so it's basically a taunt, too.

I suspect he's best in Ramp Druid because he can let you combo so easily. But he's good in a lot of decks. Not sure he'll replace Sylvannas in everything though, and there are other 6 drops decks like to run such as Cabal and ShieldMaiden.

Yeah, it's pretty sweet.  I almost always have some big cards in hand when I play Emperor, so I'm getting discounted Booms and such.  Innervating him out on T4 or earlier really speeds up my side of the game.

I still don't have Sylvanas.  I was actually running a Lord of the Arena in that slot for awhile.

[popsofctown]

Lord of the Arena doesn't go in decks.

[ashersky]

Lord of the Arena doesn't go in decks.

I needed something big and unavoidable at 6 mana.  I was running Maexxna for awhile, but she was underwhelming, and people just left her alone.  I don't have Sylvanas or any of the other 6-cost Legendaries (already run Cairne).  I don't have Piloted Sky Golem.

That left me with (other than Lord of the Arena) Archmage (don't need Spell Power), Boulderfist Ogre or Frost Elemental (no taunt), and Harpy (seems suckier).

I know Ogre is strong in Arena, but seems less so in Constructed.

Now I have Emperor (and opened Mogor) so I have better options.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Frost Elemental is "unavoidable", in that it stops one attacker, at least.

[blueblimp]

I know Ogre is strong in Arena, but seems less so in Constructed.

Yeah, but he's better than Lord of the Arena. At least Boulderfist Ogre is good in arena--Lord of the Arena is bad even in arena.

If you're looking for a 6 mana taunt, Sunwalker is merely rare and sees occasional competitive play.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Emperor Thaurissan doesn't really taunt either. Yeah your opponent can't leave him up for multiple turns, but if he's going to kill you in 2 turns anyway, then the ability doesn't really matter, it's the same as any other 5/5. It's still very good, but I don't think "taunt" has anything to do with it.

[markusin]

I know Ogre is strong in Arena, but seems less so in Constructed.

Yeah, but he's better than Lord of the Arena. At least Boulderfist Ogre is good in arena--Lord of the Arena is bad even in arena.

If you're looking for a 6 mana taunt, Sunwalker is merely rare and sees occasional competitive play.

Sunwalker is quite decent. I think the big issue with Sunwalker is that it gets killed hard by Black Knight and Sludge Belcher provides just as much stalling power for 1 mana less.

[popsofctown]

I assume he doesn't have Sunwalker.  Putting Lord of the Arena in a deck is wrong for a collection of any size.  Planning to Senjin+hero power turn six is probably better.

[ashersky]

I assume he doesn't have Sunwalker.  Putting Lord of the Arena in a deck is wrong for a collection of any size.  Planning to Senjin+hero power turn six is probably better.

I don't have Sunwalkers.  I runs Senjin for turns 2-4, but by T6, Senjin doesn't trade with anything.

It's all moot now, as Emperor has replaced the maligned LotA.

[popsofctown]

I assume he doesn't have Sunwalker.  Putting Lord of the Arena in a deck is wrong for a collection of any size.  Planning to Senjin+hero power turn six is probably better.

I don't have Sunwalkers.  I runs Senjin for turns 2-4, but by T6, Senjin doesn't trade with anything.

It's all moot now, as Emperor has replaced the maligned LotA.

I misread "maligned" as "malorned" because that's my attitude towards that other card.. lol..

[KingZog3]

I'd honestly just run yetis instead of lord of the arena.

[ashersky]

I'm sorry my one Lord of the Arena bothers everyone so much.  Never knew it would have this affect.

I'm looking for a 2 mana replacement for Robo-Cub, if that sparks anything for folks...

[KingZog3]

I'm sorry my one Lord of the Arena bothers everyone so much.  Never knew it would have this affect.

I'm looking for a 2 mana replacement for Robo-Cub, if that sparks anything for folks...

In what deck? A taunt deck? Druid often doesn't even need 2 drops because of wild growth and innervate. I run zombie chows and that's it for low cost minions I think. Then WG and Innervate and everything else is 3mana and up, 3 mana being shades of Naxx.

[ashersky]

I'm sorry my one Lord of the Arena bothers everyone so much.  Never knew it would have this affect.

I'm looking for a 2 mana replacement for Robo-Cub, if that sparks anything for folks...

In what deck? A taunt deck? Druid often doesn't even need 2 drops because of wild growth and innervate. I run zombie chows and that's it for low cost minions I think. Then WG and Innervate and everything else is 3mana and up, 3 mana being shades of Naxx.

Ramp Druid -- I run one Wrath and one RoboCub at the 2 mana level.  I run nothing at 1 mana, then Shades at 3, yetis at 4.  I guess I could run Zombie instead of Cub, but I just don't like Zombie that much.

Maybe I'll just go back to 2x Wrath.

[popsofctown]

Yeah, 2x Wrath is good.  Really good.  Wrath is a really good card.

[KingZog3]

Oh yeah wrath. Zombie is the se as cub in the 2/3 mode, which you often use anyway. But it's turn 1 which is way better.

[KingZog3]

So Fireguard Destroyer (the Shaman minion) officially has the most badass sound bites from Blackrock so far. I Thoughtstole one and I can't wait to play hearthstone with sound again.

[popsofctown]

I'm confused by the lore of this game.  I thought the adventures told me majordormo exetus is the guy who summons ragnaros, but emperor thaurrisan claims to as well?

[KingZog3]

I'm confused by the lore of this game.  I thought the adventures told me majordormo exetus is the guy who summons ragnaros, but emperor thaurrisan claims to as well?

Rag enslaved the dark iron dwarves I believe. But I dunno really.

[blueblimp]

I'm confused by the lore of this game.  I thought the adventures told me majordormo exetus is the guy who summons ragnaros, but emperor thaurrisan claims to as well?

I assumed that thaurissan summoned ragnaros to azeroth, whereas afterwards ragnaros is just in his office in the mountain and majordomo executus just summons him from there.

[ashersky]

Why isn't week 3 open yet???