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[Elanchana]

Code: [Select]

Cellar, Squire, Swindler, Advisor, Armory, Death Cart, Mining Village, Moneylender, Bandit Camp, Goons
I couldn't believe it. And I don't think my opponent could either.

You can't help but think you're screwed when your opponent has amazing Swindler luck. He (pretty sure it's a he) managed to mega-junk me up with Swindler since Death Cart was on the board, and also trashed several of my cards before I even got to play them, while the most I could do was give him a couple curses. The game went downhill from there as he was able to get profit out of his Goons and Spoils and things while I was sitting on a hefty pile of ruins and derp cards. But then late in the game I managed to spike a Province - thanks Death Cart - and in the middle of a dilemma chose the right cards to pile out (since I didn't notice that the ruins had emptied out) and ended the game on a win.

My opponent definitely had a few pitfalls - He loaded up on coppers with every Goons turn just for the extra VPs and there was that one turn when he accidentally bought a curse. I know I could have played better somehow but I think I did pretty well under the circumstances even if I didn't win. As always, looking for analysis.

[LibraryAdventurer]

nice. Swinder looks better here than on most boards (but still risky), and it's always pretty luck dependant. It would definitely be tempting to junk the opponent by giving them death carts with swindler, but death cart can be a strong card...

[Titandrake]

For overall strategy, both of you needed more Advisors. It's rough that they can be Swindled into Death Cart...but it's also the only way to increase your handsize. Just cantrips is not enough to support playing as many Swindlers/Goons as you want per turn. Without Advisor, you have at most 5 cards in hand at a time, so once you account for having extra junk from Swindler and just okay trashing, you need hand size increasers bad.

Advisor + Cellar is the main way you can make sure you draw all your actions. The overall plan of Moneylender + Swinder early on is good, but I think you want Advisor > Mining Village early on, relying on your Necropolis and/or Squire for actions while you build up enough draw. You may want to consider getting more Squires - although you want to get actions from MV/BC only if you can, an early Squire can make Swindler risky, since if Swindler hits Squire, you gain a free Goons. Also combos with Death Cart if you're given one off Swindler. You definitely don't want to buy Death Cart here, but if they give it to you, might as well use it.

[WanderingWinder]

For overall strategy, both of you needed more Advisors. It's rough that they can be Swindled into Death Cart...but it's also the only way to increase your handsize. Just cantrips is not enough to support playing as many Swindlers/Goons as you want per turn. Without Advisor, you have at most 5 cards in hand at a time, so once you account for having extra junk from Swindler and just okay trashing, you need hand size increasers bad.

Advisor + Cellar is the main way you can make sure you draw all your actions. The overall plan of Moneylender + Swinder early on is good, but I think you want Advisor > Mining Village early on, relying on your Necropolis and/or Squire for actions while you build up enough draw. You may want to consider getting more Squires - although you want to get actions from MV/BC only if you can, an early Squire can make Swindler risky, since if Swindler hits Squire, you gain a free Goons. Also combos with Death Cart if you're given one off Swindler. You definitely don't want to buy Death Cart here, but if they give it to you, might as well use it.

Man, I am not so sure. Of course, if you can get to the deck that has plenty of advisors and can draw itself, you will be doing very well. The trouble is, I am not sure you won't be too full of junk. And in a deck that has a good amount of junk, advisor can be really bad.

[pubby]

Man, I am not so sure. Of course, if you can get to the deck that has plenty of advisors and can draw itself, you will be doing very well. The trouble is, I am not sure you won't be too full of junk. And in a deck that has a good amount of junk, advisor can be really bad.

You don't need to draw your entire deck for Advisor to be good here. With Cellar on the board you only need to draw half of it. I suppose it's still super unreliable, but there's really no other way of playing multiple Goons here.

[WanderingWinder]

Man, I am not so sure. Of course, if you can get to the deck that has plenty of advisors and can draw itself, you will be doing very well. The trouble is, I am not sure you won't be too full of junk. And in a deck that has a good amount of junk, advisor can be really bad.

You don't need to draw your entire deck for Advisor to be good here. With Cellar on the board you only need to draw half of it. I suppose it's still super unreliable, but there's really no other way of playing multiple Goons here.

I don't think Advisor is going to enable multi-Goons very much. They will deny you Goons, or if there aren't Goons in the three, they will deny you Cellar, if they are savvy. I don't think you can afford to have lots of cellars, either.

[Dingan]

I could be wrong, but I would definitely open with Armory (probably Armory+Swindler).  Lots of good cards to be gained from it.  Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?

[Awaclus]

I could be wrong, but I would definitely open with Armory (probably Armory+Swindler).  Lots of good cards to be gained from it.  Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?

Well, rather than thinking "there are lots of good cards that you can gain with Armory and the game is going to be long so I should open Armory", you should be thinking about what purpose the Armory serves in your strategy. I don't think you want it here unless you're trying to gain 456486456 Advisors and I agree with WW that it's probably not going to work.

[DG]

Sometimes a card can help the winning player win but help the losing player lose. I'd put advisor into that category in this kingdom.

I could be wrong, but I would definitely open with Armory (probably Armory+Swindler).  Lots of good cards to be gained from it.  Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?

I'd be careful about armory. Those 'good cards' at cost 4 are completely vulnerable to swindlers. Also if you lose income in the early game you might find yourself in an unrecoverable mess.

There do seem to be two distinct lines of play in this kingdom - defensive play based on swindlers, silvers, squire, goons - aggressive play based on advisors, armoury, villages etc. The defensive play will certainly be best in multiplayer. In a two player game the aggressive play might succeed only because the defensive alternative will not sustain enough attacks.

[SCSN]

If you want to build the engine you need to open Armory, gaining 1 Moneylender and then as much Advisors as possible. But because of the Death Cart threat I really don't want so many 4-costs in my deck as you'll get massively junked by a competent opponent. This means I don't want to play the engine here and go instead for some Swindler-Goons-BM something, opening Swindler/Squire on 5/2 (double Swindler on 3/4) and never gaining a single 4 cost the whole game.

If my opponent goes for the engine I'd skip Goons in favor of more Swindlers, because the only way you're losing is if you don't sufficiently junk his deck.

Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?

No, that's not right. It's not even wrong. It's like saying that since lighter things are generally easier to keep aloft, an Airbus A380 probably doesn't weight all that much!

Observe the specific board and envision how it's going to play out; don't fill your mind with misleading generalizations.

[Dingan]

I could be wrong, but I would definitely open with Armory (probably Armory+Swindler).  Lots of good cards to be gained from it.  Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?

Well, rather than thinking "there are lots of good cards that you can gain with Armory and the game is going to be long so I should open Armory", you should be thinking about what purpose the Armory serves in your strategy. I don't think you want it here unless you're trying to gain 456486456 Advisors and I agree with WW that it's probably not going to work.

I understand that having Advisors + a lot of junk is bad.  But you can never have too many Mining Villages, pretty much no matter what else is in the kingdom.  Armory could be used to pick up them, a Moneylender, Cellars (to support all the Advisors you're getting), Death Cart fuel, etc.

[Awaclus]

I understand that having Advisors + a lot of junk is bad.  But you can never have too many Mining Villages, pretty much no matter what else is in the kingdom.  Armory could be used to pick up them, a Moneylender, Cellars (to support all the Advisors you're getting), Death Cart fuel, etc.

Mining Village isn't that good here. As long as it's in your deck, it's better than nothing, but as soon as your opponent's Swindler hits it, it sucks.

[WanderingWinder]

The biggest problem I have with Armory is that you have to buy the Armory itself. If you had "at the end of your turn, gain and topdeck a card costing exactly 4", I would take that, at least if I didn't have to spend a turn to get it. But Armory is a card that is slow, Swindlable, and not itself Swindler - which matters in that it slows you down to getting lots of Swindlers yourself as well as for terminal collision purposes. And a big knock on the Armory strategy is that, by the time you start getting going, the game will be three-piling.