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[ehunt]

it's been a while since we've had one of these threads.

If you're using count to trash your hand early, and you draw a fistful of junk, gain a copper rather than topdecking a copper.

[liopoil]

In junking games, use watchtower to topdeck a watchtower for a) More watchtowers and b) Protection next turn. Watch for your opponent doing this too and reconsider if you want to play that mountebank or not (usually you still do).

[pacovf]

[Awaclus]

In junking games, use watchtower to topdeck a watchtower for a) More watchtowers and b) Protection next turn. Watch for your opponent doing this too and reconsider if you want to play that mountebank or not (usually you still do).

But don't do it unless you actually need the Watchtowers for something other than protection. Oftentimes you will, but I played a game recently where my opponent ignored Cultist, managed to trash 9 of the Ruins with Watchtowers, and still lost because he couldn't do much with a deck full of Watchtowers and very little else going on.

[liopoil]

Well yes, a) has to actually be a good thing. And this is a trick you do twice per game at the very most, so you don't end up with more than 3.

[werothegreat]

How to play a Goons game:

1) Buy Goons
2) Play Goons
3) ?? ?? ?? ??
4) Profit

[Gherald]

In general, play in-place deck sifters like Vagabond and Ironmonger, and more obviously Cartographer and Apothecary and Scrying Pool, before your other draw.

It's best to assume the junk is up front and can be fixed, than to assume it's further toward the back of your deck to be fixed later.

Why? Because you get more immediate benefit from fixing the case up front, so with the chances being equal you may as well bet on the outcome that benefits you sooner.

There are exceptions, like if you only have one buy and are trying to benefit your next turn, then you could save an in-place sift of the top of your deck for last. But generally you want to benefit the current turn.

--

On that note, if Mystic is your last play and you have a lot of deck silvers (let's say), but don't need that silver on your current turn, guess something less likely that'll benefit your next turn by avoiding it.  For example Province or curse or some of the copper you have left. The odds may be lower but actually helpful, whereas adding a silver on the current turn isn't helpful and is best left in place

[werothegreat]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

[Awaclus]

On that note, if Mystic is your last play and you have a lot of deck silvers (let's say), but don't need that silver on your current turn, guess something less likely that'll benefit your next turn by avoiding it.  For example Province or curse or some of the copper you have left. The odds may be lower but actually helpful, whereas adding a silver on the current turn isn't helpful and is best left in place

Most of time you should guess Silver in that situation though, because you want to get the Silver out of your next hand.

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Depends on the contents of your draw pile.

[Gherald]

Most of time you should guess Silver in that situation though, because you want to get the Silver out of your next hand.

No. If silver is the most abundant card in your deck, it is there for a reason.

[Flip5ide]

In general, play in-place deck sifters like Vagabond and Ironmonger, and more obviously Cartographer and Apothecary and Scrying Pool, before your other draw.

Vagrant?

[werothegreat]

In general, play in-place deck sifters like Vagabond and Ironmonger, and more obviously Cartographer and Apothecary and Scrying Pool, before your other draw.

Vagrant?

"Vagabond" is the French name for the card.

[Gherald]

I don't speak french haha. I guess vagabond is a word I'm used to seeing, whereas vagrant is one I'd never heard before Dominion

[Awaclus]

Most of time you should guess Silver in that situation though, because you want to get the Silver out of your next hand.

No. If silver is the most abundant card in your deck, it is there for a reason.

Ambassador?

[werothegreat]

Most of time you should guess Silver in that situation though, because you want to get the Silver out of your next hand.

No. If silver is the most abundant card in your deck, it is there for a reason.

Ambassador?

I think Embassy is more likely.

[pubby]

In general, play in-place deck sifters like Vagabond and Ironmonger, and more obviously Cartographer and Apothecary and Scrying Pool, before your other draw.

To add to this: don't waste top-deck scouting if you don't have to. Cartographer -> Laboratory -> Cartographer is often better than Cartographer -> Cartographer -> Laboratory.

[Tombolo]

Look at the name: Do Minion.

[pubby]

Look at the name: Do Minion.

Dough Minion: You Bake Your Own Shuffle Luck

[Elanchana]

If you can gain something, don't spend too much effort on buying it.

If there are no villages on the board, consider how much you really need any terminals you want to buy.

[Flip5ide]

Don't buy good cards at stupid times.. i.e. Wharf ... with 1 province remaining and 22 cards left in your deck. -or- turn 2 village.

[Flip5ide]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Is there a right answer?

[Awaclus]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Is there a right answer?

Yes:

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Depends on the contents of your draw pile.

[Flip5ide]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Is there a right answer?

Yes:

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Depends on the contents of your draw pile.

More of a non-answer (or inside joke) than a correct answer.

[Chris is me]

This is a cool thread I'll drop thoughts in as I come up with them.

First thing I'd say is that, particularly when learning unfamiliar cards / when new at the game, it's probably better to play a sub-optimal strategy perfectly than a better strategy poorly. If the better strategy is a mirror, and your opponent knows the strategy better, it's not likely that you'll win, even if you both make a few mistakes. On the other hand, if there's a strategy / combo you know very well on the board, better than how well your opponent knows the "better" strategy he's playing, you've got a chance.

One more - in limited circumstances, naming Duchy with your first few plays of Rebuild, and buying an Estate or two, is one stupid way to win the Duchy split. If you're having enough trouble hitting $5 to consider this, the Provinces will probably wait for you, so you can focus on getting the most Duchys first, ideally ending with no Estates at all.

[Awaclus]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Is there a right answer?

Yes:

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Depends on the contents of your draw pile.

More of a non-answer (or inside joke) than a correct answer.

No but it's true. Depending on what's left in your draw pile and what the situation is, you should be able to tell which card you want to play first (and by "should", I don't mean that you actually should do it because it's usually way more complicated and way less useful than in this following example). If the contents of your draw pile are, for example, Hunting Grounds and 4 Coppers:

Play Farming Village first -> there's a 1/5 chance that it draws your HG, and then Sage can skip over those Coppers, trigger a reshuffle, and find you another $3 or more expensive card. Which is good if you're going to draw your entire deck and bad if you just shuffled yourself a deck full of Coppers and other junk. Or you can choose to not play Sage and be left with 4 Coppers in your deck which probably sucks EDIT: is completely fine because the Hunting Grounds will draw them for you. There's a 4/5 chance that Farming Village draws a Copper, and then Sage will find the HG and skip over some number of Coppers between 0 and 3.

Play Sage first -> Sage will find the HG. There's a 1/5 chance that it was the last card in your deck. Then you can play Farming Village to trigger a reshuffle, and it will find you another Treasure or Action card. Which is probably much worse than what the Sage did for making your engine go off this turn, and if you're going for the reshuffle control, it's equally good for that but then you have those Coppers in your discard pile instead of your hand. There's a 4/5 chance that HG is not the last card in your deck, Sage will skip over some number of Coppers between 0 and 3 and then you can play Farming Village to draw a Copper.

Then you just have to decide which 1/5 chance you like more. Obviously you should play Farming Village first in this particular scenario.

First thing I'd say is that, particularly when learning unfamiliar cards / when new at the game, it's probably better to play a sub-optimal strategy perfectly than a better strategy poorly. If the better strategy is a mirror, and your opponent knows the strategy better, it's not likely that you'll win, even if you both make a few mistakes. On the other hand, if there's a strategy / combo you know very well on the board, better than how well your opponent knows the "better" strategy he's playing, you've got a chance.

This depends on what you mean by "better". It's true that you'll probably be more likely to win that single game if you play a strategy you know well instead of a better strategy that you have no idea how to play. But if you want to get better at the game, you will have to learn how to play those better strategies sooner or later. And actually trying them out is a pretty good way of learning.

[Titandrake]

If you aren't going to shuffle your deck before the end of the game, buying anything that doesn't give VP is useless.

If you're only going to shuffle your deck once before the end of the game, whatever you buy needs to make up the VP you could have bought instead, and this is assuming you draw whatever you buy in the first place!

Fun log from around 2 days ago: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150305/log.51395be9e4b006f8dc8cf78c.1425545634376.txt

I'm very behind because I don't have enough actions in my deck, but I manage to sneak out a win over my last 2 turns. On my 2nd-last turn, I get 2 Farming Villages from SM overpay. This costs me on a Duchy, but even though the game is very close to 3-piling, I desperately need the actions. I can also guarantee having them for next turn which makes it a no-brainer. On my last turn, I can abuse Stonemason and Hunting Grounds to pile out Estates - I know I have exactly 2 HG in my deck, which is 6 estates to gain, then account for Stonemason effect giving me either Estate if I need to pile or Duchy if I need to get VP. I have no intention of reshuffling my deck this turn - I lose long run so I win this turn or go bust. Luckily it works out despite minor misplay (I miss a chance to draw one extra card off my Watchtower, so I don't maximize my chances of drawing both HG.)

So for more specific tips from that game in particular: Stonemason is an incredible 3-pile enabler. Play cards that trash from hand before Watchtower if you have the +Actions. If your deck is worse, see if there's a way to end the game before it matters too much.

[GeoLib]

One more - in limited circumstances, naming Duchy with your first few plays of Rebuild, and buying an Estate or two, is one stupid way to win the Duchy split. If you're having enough trouble hitting $5 to consider this, the Provinces will probably wait for you, so you can focus on getting the most Duchys first, ideally ending with no Estates at all.

This is sort of right, but you should check out this article: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2489.msg362854#msg362854 (note that it talks about rebuild mirrors only)

[crlundy]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Is there a right answer?

Yes:

Depends on the contents of your draw pile.

A simpler case purely to highlight that it can matter: You topdeck a Province because of Spy/Bureaucrat. If you have Tournament/Explorer, you may want to play Sage first. Otherwise, you probably want to play Farming Village first.

[jaybeez]

If you're playing on Goko (or MF or whatever), be sure to check the second page of cards before making your opening buys.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

There is a second page?

[Tombolo]

If you're playing on Goko (or MF or whatever), be sure to check the second page of cards before making your opening buys.

Also, check whether you have a token from Baker!

[eHalcyon]

There is a second page?

I will answer in case this is a real question.

The UI is only designed to display 10 cards, which means cards sometimes get put on the second page.  This is mainly a problem with Young Witch.

[Awaclus]

If you're playing on Goko (or MF or whatever), be sure to check the second page of cards before making your opening buys.

Also, check whether you have a token from Baker!

And if you don't, make the "I'll use a coin token" joke.

[werothegreat]

If you're thinking about opening Throne Room, just give yourself a good slap in the face, and then don't.

I was going to say the same about playing another Tournament after your opponent reveals a Province, but I was thinking of too many edge cases.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

There is a second page?

I will answer in case this is a real question.

The UI is only designed to display 10 cards, which means cards sometimes get put on the second page.  This is mainly a problem with Young Witch.

Thanks for taking me seriously, it was indeed a real question.  It dawns on me that the situation would not have come up (for me). I have not given MF/Goko any money, so I have access only to the base set, and I've not played any real people yet, just the bots.

[Gherald]

* SwitchedFromStarcraft is now known as DidnotSwitchFromIsotropic

[blueblimp]

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Is there a right answer?

Yes:

I have Sage and Farming Village in my hand.  Which should I play first?

Depends on the contents of your draw pile.

If you don't know anything about the order of your draw deck, AND if you're certain to play both cards before the next reshuffle (including scenarios where you draw some other card that you want to play first), then it doesn't matter which order you play them in, even considering the contents of your draw deck. Otherwise, it's situation-dependent, yes, but there are still rules of thumb.

If you know something about the order of your draw deck, it's usually that there's something on top, so prefer to play in a way that discards as much junk as possible. If you know that the top card of your deck is not junk, prefer to play the card that is the worse sifter for your deck composition.

If reshuffling is a possibility this turn, or if you might not want to play both cards in this turn, I think that Sage is slightly preferred to play first, unless that play would immediately trigger a bad reshuffle. Sage whiffs much more easily than Farming Village, so by playing it earlier, there is less chance to whiff. Also, Sage is more unpredictable in terms of how much in draws, so controlling your reshuffles should be more easily done once you've played out your Sages. If you know you will need the action from the Farming Village, well then you may want to play that first, so that you can comfortably skip playing the Sage (unlike the other scenario where you're sad about not playing the Farming Village).

[pubby]

Play Ruined Village and Necropolis before discarding with Minion. That way you can't draw them again.

[Awaclus]

Play Ruined Village and Necropolis before discarding with Minion. That way you can't draw them again.

Play Necropolis before discarding with Minion also because that way you'll get the +2 actions before you discard the card.

[liopoil]

Don't discard coppers with plaza just before a shuffle that you are going to trigger mid-turn. This tip applies to many cards, actually.

[jomini]

Don't discard coppers with plaza just before a shuffle that you are going to trigger mid-turn. This tip applies to many cards, actually.

Ehh, one of the nice things about plaza is being able to serially abuse the same few coins for coin tokens. 1 coin token vs 1 card is not always on the card side. Sure often, it isn't, but if you have good odds of drawing through it anyways - take the coin and run.

[Burning Skull]

When you have X > 1 Minions in hand, and you want to discard with one of them and thus cause the reshuffle, consider not playing all the other X - 1 Minions for money.
Depending on the size of your discard pile it may be better to just discard some of them, so you can use them for draw later this turn.

[pst]

Most of time you should guess Silver in that situation though, because you want to get the Silver out of your next hand.

No. If silver is the most abundant card in your deck, it is there for a reason.

Ambassador?

I think Embassy is more likely.

Governor in a 4p game.

[Polk5440]

When you have X > 1 Minions in hand, and you want to discard with one of them and thus cause the reshuffle, consider not playing all the other X - 1 Minions for money.
Depending on the size of your discard pile it may be better to just discard some of them, so you can use them for draw later this turn.

Also, when you have X > 0 Minions in hand, consider playing them all for money in order to not trigger a nasty reshuffle.

[LastFootnote]

Sometimes it's fine to trigger a bad reshuffle with Minion if your discard pile only has 4 or 5 junk cards in it; usually that hand will be Minioned away by your opponent.

[hvb]

Sometimes it's fine to trigger a bad reshuffle with Minion if your discard pile only has 4 or 5 junk cards in it; usually that hand will be Minioned away by your opponent.

I wouldn't rely on this against good and observant players.

On Topic. If you want one copy of a card (e.g. Woodcutter for 2nd buy) in your deck anyway, but its not the optimal way to buy it right now (e.g. because silver is now slightly superior to woodcutter), its often good not to buy it on the first occasion that occurs. Most of the time its more precise to buy that card later and optimize your chances of a good/fast deck now.

[Chris is me]

Biggest tactic tip I can think of is to not let the amount of money you have be the sole deciding factor in what card you get.

It's a big hang-up to get over, as people want to maximize their value, and you have the psychological sensation that since you get rid of all your money at the end of the turn, it's wasteful to not use it all. But sometimes you really do need to buy Bridge at $8.

For a really dramatic example, I was playing a Hunting Grounds / Bazaar / Pawn Colony game last night, and I had something like 20. I wanted Platinum to hit at least $25 every turn, but I also wanted an extra source of +Buy so I could get more than 2 cards, as I only had one Pawn. But I couldn't get myself to buy Pawn for $11, instead going for a single Colony, and that ended up costing me the game.

[lespeutere]

If you aren't going to shuffle your deck before the end of the game, buying anything that doesn't give VP is useless.

Except for
a) desired 3-pile-endings.
b) situations where you are behind and have a chance to get closer by playing goons/monuments or giving curses but risk a 3-pile-ending by buying VP (or game end when only provinces/colonies are left).

Might be even more, this is just what came to my mind immediately.

[eHalcyon]

Biggest tactic tip I can think of is to not let the amount of money you have be the sole deciding factor in what card you get.

It's a big hang-up to get over, as people want to maximize their value, and you have the psychological sensation that since you get rid of all your money at the end of the turn, it's wasteful to not use it all. But sometimes you really do need to buy Bridge at $8.

For a really dramatic example, I was playing a Hunting Grounds / Bazaar / Pawn Colony game last night, and I had something like 20. I wanted Platinum to hit at least $25 every turn, but I also wanted an extra source of +Buy so I could get more than 2 cards, as I only had one Pawn. But I couldn't get myself to buy Pawn for $11, instead going for a single Colony, and that ended up costing me the game.

Here's the classic example by Stef.

[AdamH]

If you aren't going to shuffle your deck before the end of the game, buying anything that doesn't give VP is useless.

Except for
a) desired 3-pile-endings.
b) situations where you are behind and have a chance to get closer by playing goons/monuments or giving curses but risk a 3-pile-ending by buying VP (or game end when only provinces/colonies are left).

Might be even more, this is just what came to my mind immediately.

Counting House!

[LastFootnote]

Sometimes it's fine to trigger a bad reshuffle with Minion if your discard pile only has 4 or 5 junk cards in it; usually that hand will be Minioned away by your opponent.

I wouldn't rely on this against good and observant players.

I absolutely would. If they're also running a Minion deck, they're not going to shut down their engine just to maybe shut down yours as well.

[SCSN]

That really depends on the situation... it's quite conceivable that I'm willing to settle for a mediocre over a good turn to give you a terrible one. In my first game against Tao Chen yesterday I didnt play Possession at least once because I expected him to have a bad hand, and I remember a game against Stef from a while ago where he thought for like a minute about not Minioning for cards after Goko, kind as it is, revealed to him that I did not reveal my Moat.

[-Stef-]

When playing against possession and you need to discard (Militia, Ghost Ship, ...) consider keeping your bad cards and discarding your good ones.
When playing with possession and your opponent had to discard, consider not playing the possession.
(video)

[AJD]

If you aren't going to shuffle your deck before the end of the game, buying anything that doesn't give VP is useless.

Except for
a) desired 3-pile-endings.
b) situations where you are behind and have a chance to get closer by playing goons/monuments or giving curses but risk a 3-pile-ending by buying VP (or game end when only provinces/colonies are left).

Might be even more, this is just what came to my mind immediately.

Counting House!

Herald?

[markusin]

Sometimes it's fine to trigger a bad reshuffle with Minion if your discard pile only has 4 or 5 junk cards in it; usually that hand will be Minioned away by your opponent.

I wouldn't rely on this against good and observant players.

I absolutely would. If they're also running a Minion deck, they're not going to shut down their engine just to maybe shut down yours as well.

With Possession though, it's a different story since it wasn't going to help your engine anyway. I remember playing an engine-y Possession game where my opponent was kind of ahead of me but triggered a really bad reshuffle that most of my opponent's engine cards missed. I chose not to play Possession during that shuffle to make that bad shuffle last as long as possible, giving me time to catch up.

[Flip5ide]

If you are losing, you miiiight not want to end the game.

[werothegreat]

If you are losing, you miiiight not want to end the game.

I mean, unless you want to just end your misery.