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Author Topic: A simple question.  (Read 18542 times)

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dghunter79

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A simple question.
« on: March 05, 2015, 12:04:33 am »
+1

Solitaire game. Grand Market is in the kingdom. That's all you know.

How many different cards do you need to ban from the kingdom to ensure that you will not be able to buy* a Grand Market until turn 5?




(Simpler question: what's your estimate of the number? mine was 8.)

*EDIT: I meat "gain," sorry. But I haven't figured in out yet either way.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 12:00:28 pm by dghunter79 »
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liopoil

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 07:29:57 am »
0

My estimate: 42
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Kirian

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 09:18:12 am »
0

I'm going to estimate closer to 20, but I'm guessing.  Without more than a couple minutes of thought, the following openings get you an early GM with perfect shuffle luck:

Vault/*
Mandarin/[Cache|Contraband]
Death Cart/Silver


I'm certain we have to prohibit Baker because of all the shenanigans it can cause.
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Awaclus

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 09:43:46 am »
+16

One. Grand Market.
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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 10:01:43 am »
+1

How can I not guess   55  ?

But I don't think it's feasible to actually come up with the correct answer. It's easy enough to come up with a list of single cards that will enable you to get a GM on turn 5 with no other support, Vault, Haggler, Forge, Stonemason immediately come to mind but then there are multiple-card combos, and you have to look at all of them before you know the minimum set of Kingdom cards to ban in order to disable them all. That's a lot of combos and I don't think you can automate that.

On the other hand, just running down the list of 206 Kingdom cards, you can probably get a list of the single cards, and maybe that reduces the problem size by a lot?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 10:06:47 am »
+1

It's about things that can get GM on turns 3/4, not by turn 5 Adam.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:08:41 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Kirian

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 10:11:35 am »
0

How can I not guess   55  ?

But I don't think it's feasible to actually come up with the correct answer. It's easy enough to come up with a list of single cards that will enable you to get a GM on turn 5 with no other support...

Note that the question isn't "on T5," which is doable with just Silver/Silver/Gold and so can't be stopped at all.  This is "impossible to get before T5.  So for instance, Forge doesn't need to be banned--you can't get it T1/2 (even with Baker), so you can't use it until T5 at the earliest.

Though I suspect Doctor need banning too, because again, shenanigans.
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AdamH

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 10:13:38 am »
0

Hmm, it seems I've misread the question. OK so a few of my examples don't quite work.

On the other hand, my guess will remain unchanged!
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 10:18:04 am »
+1

Do "shelters" count as a card you have to ban?
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pubby

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 10:19:16 am »
+1

Storeroom
Nomad Camp
Chancellor/Scavenger
Poor House
Baron
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 10:19:45 am »
0

Secret Chamber gets there with a number of things: Menagerie/Shelters, Shanty/Shanty, Village/Smithy(Envoy), Baker.

Baron, Scavenger, Chancellor, Stonemason (with draw) are out

Masterpiece/Fool's Gold works on a 5/2

Poor House works with Shelters
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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 10:22:26 am »
+3

on their own:

Vault
Death Cart
Chancellor
Scavenger
Baron

almost on their own:
Develop + any$4 + any$5
Poor House + any terminal silver
Masterpiece + any $2 card that makes money

combo's
(secret chamber/storeroom) + draw3 + village
cellar + highway + feast
warehouse + remodel + $4cost
nomad camp + fool's gold
baker + lots of things
stonemason + coppersmith
horse traders + menagerie
harvest + duchess
Contraband + crossroads
Butcher + crossroads
Mandarin + contraband/cache/counterfeit
beggar + Farmland + any$4
Counterfeit + Fool's Gold
Counterfeit + Courtyard
Graverobber + Crossroads + any$3
Pillage + Cellar


I think I'd ban these:
Vault, Death Cart, Chancellor, Scavenger, Baron, Develop, Poor House, Masterpiece, Baker
Secret Chamber, Storeroom, Farmland, Horse Traders, Stonemason
Cellar, Crossroads, Warehouse, Courtyard
Harvest, Mandarin, Fool's Gold


which brings my current estimation to 21

I don't think you can just remove any of the cards without breaking the puzzle.
Off course maybe you can remove 2 and add 1, and it's very likely some cards still need to be added.

I'm a little worried still about Butcher and Graverobber, but with these bans I don't see how they could work.
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pubby

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 10:27:35 am »
0

Nomad Camp and Storeroom are enough to work on their own, no? Turn 3 isn't possible, but turn 4 is.
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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 10:32:24 am »
0

...

I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.

So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:35:41 am by -Stef- »
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2015, 10:37:13 am »
0

...

I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.

So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24

In that vein, I think that Inn  also needs to be banned.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2015, 10:40:22 am »
0

Smithy/Envoy work with Forge/Expand

also Shanties instead for the draw

oh and same idea but with Border Village/Remodel(Butcher)(Graverobber).
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:57:27 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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TheOthin

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2015, 10:42:17 am »
0

...

I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.

So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24

In that vein, I think that Inn  also needs to be banned.

How would you get that to work?
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2015, 10:55:08 am »
0

...

I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.

So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24

In that vein, I think that Inn  also needs to be banned.

How would you get that to work?

Open Inn on turn 1 with five coppers shuffle it in, turn two draw Inn-C-C-E-E, play Inn and buy warehouse or something, buy Remake on turn 3, Remake Inn into GM on turn four. There are probably other combos that work with it too.
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-Stef-

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2015, 10:59:14 am »
0

Smithy/Envoy work with Forge/Expand

also Shanties instead for the draw

oh and same idea but with Border Village/Remodel(Butcher).

Hmm, I'm afraid you're right. This means either all the draw cards or all the remodel-ish cards need to go on the list.
Graverobber also works with shanty. Even Procession works with shanty.

Is it enough to ban Smithy + Envoy + Shanty?
It feels like the class of remodel-ish cards is bigger.


Edit: never mind about that. Any two cards that draw 4 together (say lab + moat) can be combined with any card that can transform a lab into a GM (Remodel, Remake, Procession, Graverobber, Expand, Forge).

And probably Salvager needs to go on the list too.
And either envoy or tunnel, or maybe even both.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 11:09:32 am by -Stef- »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2015, 11:06:24 am »
0

Throne Room/Courtyard, Oracle, Moat also does enough drawing for these things. There might be other Throne Room solutions not related to draw.

Also Oracle or Watchtower with Shelters is sufficient cycling.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 11:09:55 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2015, 11:11:13 am »
+2

Is it..... 6?
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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2015, 11:27:29 am »
+1

The puzzle is to not be able to BUY a Grand Market before turn 5, isn't it? You need to ban a lot more cards to avoid being able to gain one, but the stipulation of having to buy it narrows the space a bit. So maybe we don't need to get rid of all the Remodel variants?

No clue what the answer is, but I'll say 23 for the heck of it.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2015, 12:50:40 pm »
0

Smithy/Envoy work with Forge/Expand

also Shanties instead for the draw

oh and same idea but with Border Village/Remodel(Butcher).

Hmm, I'm afraid you're right. This means either all the draw cards or all the remodel-ish cards need to go on the list.
Graverobber also works with shanty. Even Procession works with shanty.

Is it enough to ban Smithy + Envoy + Shanty?
It feels like the class of remodel-ish cards is bigger.


Edit: never mind about that. Any two cards that draw 4 together (say lab + moat) can be combined with any card that can transform a lab into a GM (Remodel, Remake, Procession, Graverobber, Expand, Forge).

And probably Salvager needs to go on the list too.
And either envoy or tunnel, or maybe even both.


Any card that costs $4 or $3 that can draw/cycle three can be combined with an appropriate remodel variant. So that includes Ironmonger, Advisor, Menagerie, Watchtower, Oracle, Crossroads, Warehouse, there are probably more. I think you have to just blanket ban all remodel variants.
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heron

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2015, 12:57:08 pm »
+1

One of watchtower and feodum needs to be banned.
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DG

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Re: A simple question.
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2015, 01:01:35 pm »
0

Sage needs to go on the list for it's pairing with bridge, nomad camp, woodcutter, squire, and probably more. Loan needs considering on the same basis but it's probably ok.

At least one of foedum and watchtower needs to go on the list too.

edit - spice merchant/loan/counterfeit can give a turn 4 grand market.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 05:15:00 pm by DG »
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