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Author Topic: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?  (Read 2478 times)

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Bext

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When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« on: March 04, 2015, 01:56:38 pm »
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Came across a difference of opinion with some people last night and could use some clarification.

Let's say you have played Forager, trashed a copper and it is the only treasure in the trash pile. Forager is now valued at +1.

Now you enter the buy phase of that same hand and Counterfeit some other treasure card. There are now 2 differently named treasure cards in the trash.

We have always calculated the value of Forager in the buy phase, choosing to calculate it after the Counterfeit action, hence +2.

The players last night believed that the value of Forager is fixed at the moment it is played.

Neither the instructions nor the wiki addressed it precisely. Your explanation is much appreciated!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 01:59:21 pm »
+1

All actions take their effect immediately, so the number of coins granted by Forager depends on the state of the trash at the time you play that Forager.
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LastFootnote

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 02:03:23 pm »
+9

All actions take their effect immediately, so the number of coins granted by Forager depends on the state of the trash at the time you play that Forager.

Correction: it depends on the state of the trash after Forager trashes a card from your hand.
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Joseph2302

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 02:08:25 pm »
+2

All actions take their effect immediately, so the number of coins granted by Forager depends on the state of the trash at the time you play that Forager.

Correction: it depends on the state of the trash after Forager trashes a card from your hand.
And only counts cards in the trash, not those set aside when trashed during a Possession turn.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 02:17:07 pm »
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All actions take their effect immediately, so the number of coins granted by Forager depends on the state of the trash at the time you play that Forager.

Correction: it depends on the state of the trash after Forager trashes a card from your hand.

Thanks. Yeah, I meant at the time you execute that part of the action card. "Play" refers to a very specific moment, not the entire time you're executing the card.
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Witherweaver

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 03:03:08 pm »
+6

Came across a difference of opinion with some people last night and could use some clarification.

Let's say you have played Forager, trashed a copper and it is the only treasure in the trash pile. Forager is now valued at +1.

Now you enter the buy phase of that same hand and Counterfeit some other treasure card. There are now 2 differently named treasure cards in the trash.

We have always calculated the value of Forager in the buy phase, choosing to calculate it after the Counterfeit action, hence +2.

The players last night believed that the value of Forager is fixed at the moment it is played.

Neither the instructions nor the wiki addressed it precisely. Your explanation is much appreciated!

You're somewhat misrepresenting Forager in terms of a "value".  It is helpful to think of having a "Money" counter, which is a running counter during your entire turn that counts how much coin you have in your pool.  Playing a card that says "+1 Coin" (e.g., Market) adds +1 to the Money counter.   Playing a Silver adds +2 to the money counter.  The counter runs through your entire turn, not just the Buy phase.

Your turn starts with

Money: 0

If you, for instance, played a Fishing Village last turn, then it would take effect at the start of your turn and you would have

Money: 1

If you now play, say, a Market, you would have

Money: 2

If you now enter your buy phase and play a Gold and a Copper, you would have

Money: 6

--------

Take another scenario, to maybe emphasize why this is important.  You start your turn with

Money: 0

Pretend you (for some reason) played six Fishing Villages last turn, so you start with

Money: 6

and let's also say you previously used Prince on a Smithy so that you have eight cards.  Let's say your hand is Poor House and 7 Coppers.

If you play Poor House, you first get +4 coins, so

Money: 10

Now, continuing the resolution of Poor House, you get -1 for each Treasure in your hand, which is a total of -7, so you have

Money: 3

This is all still during your Action phase.  Now during your Buy phase you can play your 7 Coppers and get to

Money: 10

Note that if you had not played Poor House and chosen to instead go to your Buy phase, then playing the 7 Coppers would leave you with

Money: 13

--------

The short of it is, Forager (or any other card that gives or takes away Money) affects the Money counter when it is played, as part of its resolution.  Even though in "real life" playing you usually don't count all them up until later (when you go to Buy something).

You should think of Actions and Buys in the same way.  You start with Actions: 1 and Buys: 1, and playing an Action costs 1 from the Action counter, Buying a card costs 1 from the Buy counter.

In other words, the way you see it on Goko or previous electronic implementations of Dominion.

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Bext

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 03:09:22 pm »
+1

Thanks for not giving just a quick answer but providing a full context! That helps approaching many different situations!

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Flip5ide

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 06:26:57 am »
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Thanks for not giving just a quick answer but providing a full context! That helps approaching many different situations!

Yeah I had the same question about Trade Route when I first read it.
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Sidsel

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 08:11:25 am »
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Thanks for not giving just a quick answer but providing a full context! That helps approaching many different situations!

Yeah I had the same question about Trade Route when I first read it.

And I have always been a bit confused about City. But I gather from this that if the city is NOT leveled up when you play it, a particular instance of City won't be giving coins later even if you manage to level them during your turn. I guess this means that you could play one City for basic effects, use a gainer to empty a pile, play a second City that draws an extra card, gain again to empty a second pile, and then play a third City - but only the last one gives you a coin and a buy. The other two don't retroactively get the bonus.
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Awaclus

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 08:22:02 am »
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Thanks for not giving just a quick answer but providing a full context! That helps approaching many different situations!

Yeah I had the same question about Trade Route when I first read it.

And I have always been a bit confused about City. But I gather from this that if the city is NOT leveled up when you play it, a particular instance of City won't be giving coins later even if you manage to level them during your turn. I guess this means that you could play one City for basic effects, use a gainer to empty a pile, play a second City that draws an extra card, gain again to empty a second pile, and then play a third City - but only the last one gives you a coin and a buy. The other two don't retroactively get the bonus.

Yes, that's what it means.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When to Calculate Forager value - on Play or in Buy Phase?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2015, 03:01:17 pm »
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Thanks for not giving just a quick answer but providing a full context! That helps approaching many different situations!

Yeah I had the same question about Trade Route when I first read it.

And I have always been a bit confused about City. But I gather from this that if the city is NOT leveled up when you play it, a particular instance of City won't be giving coins later even if you manage to level them during your turn. I guess this means that you could play one City for basic effects, use a gainer to empty a pile, play a second City that draws an extra card, gain again to empty a second pile, and then play a third City - but only the last one gives you a coin and a buy. The other two don't retroactively get the bonus.

Yes. Also note that if you play a bunch of Coppers with Black Market, and then play Coppersmith, the already-played Coppers will NOT give you extra money. They've already been played and already produced their $1.
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