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Author Topic: Lack of quality posts  (Read 32887 times)

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Mr.Oatmeal

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2015, 08:05:56 am »
+1

Expanding on some things that WW and jsh said, I think the community (at least in my experience of it) has moved to more streaming and YouTube videos. These videos allow discussion about the mid-game strategies that WW pointed out are so hard to put into an article.
One specific thing that I have picked up from watching these videos is I have caught myself  thinking "ok, my opponent has X gains, so he can't end the game next turn, so I am safe to keep building."  Typing up how to track that would be hard, but to see the things that the streamers consider when checking for piles is very straight forward.
Also, some of the combo discussions that seem to be missing in the forum take place in the chat on twitch.

These videos don't address your issue with the possibility that elite players may not value certain cards or combos, but I think that learning to control my deck and understand what may be coming over the next few turns is going to help me understand, appreciate and play the game of dominion better.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2015, 10:58:21 am »
0

It does seem to me (from the advice in the Game Reports forum) that a lot of high-level players will stick to their tried-and-true strategies rather than trying new things. I think it is entirely reasonable to believe that these players sometimes win through tactical skill even though they chose a "sub-optimal" strategy. Whether that's a bad thing is a matter of opinion, I guess.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2015, 11:14:01 am »
+5

The death of Isotropic was the reason I'm no longer playing Dominion online. I don't feel like paying Goko/MakingFun/whoever for their implementation, and I have little interest in Base Set games. There are probably many others like me, who would otherwise be part of an online Dominion-playing community, sharing their games.

Some of this parallels what has happened in the development of chess. It's actually pretty hard these days to write decent strategy articles about chess, because so much of modern positional understanding is based on specific features of specific positions. John Watson's book Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy has much to say on this topic.

for the record, you really don't have to buy to play games at more-or-less the same rate as you did on isotropic. i don't own any cards and don't have trouble getting non-base-set games.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2015, 11:48:39 am »
+1

Expanding on some things that WW and jsh said, I think the community (at least in my experience of it) has moved to more streaming and YouTube videos. These videos allow discussion about the mid-game strategies that WW pointed out are so hard to put into an article.

For me personally, this is very much the case. It's much easier for me to contribute to the community through video than it is through text, so that is most of what I've been doing for quite some time now. I've written one article, but I've put out countless hours of videos and live streams and commentary that is collectively much more valuable than my Jack article.

I mean, I'd rather watch/listen to a video than read an article (though I love doing both) but I imagine videos are much more accessible for lots of people.

Personally I think it's a good thing, if I'm not totally off-base in thinking that videos are better than text in some ways, then a shift towards more video content is an improvement in the content we see. At least it's better for me.

I feel much closer to the F.DS community interacting with them in real-time, whether that's on Skype or through the chat. I've even gotten to meet a few of you IRL and it's been a blast.
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jomini

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2015, 09:20:05 pm »
+1


No, you don't get an understanding of how the game works by learning individual things that only apply in specific scenarios.
You get an understanding of how that individual thing works in that specific scenario.
No what you want to get is why these things work and particularly why X is better than Y. If you play enough, the "why" question just becomes innate. I've seen people tell me I'm wrong about things they actually have done when playing me. If you want to understand the game, why is by far the more interesting question. This doesn't make you a stronger play particularly fast, but you have a much better understanding of things. Much like how chess problems don't give you a huge leg up in competitive play but do allow you to understand the game better.


Quote
I stopped reading the Counterfeit/Venture thread when the posts got tl;dr, so I'm not sure what kind of stuff was discussed there, but I'm sure that learning about "when cards dig for stuff, it's good to build your deck in such a way that they will hit stuff you want them to hit" is way more useful than learning about "Counterfeit is good with Venture".

The latter is a specific instance of the former as you are I'm sure aware. However, no one reading the board is a moron and we all can learn inductive or deductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning is typically easier for people to grasp and far more rapidly integrated (hence part of the reason humans use so many analogies in argumentation); but the board may be skewed. Nobody thinks learning every possible synergy between any two cards is a good idea, but the skills find such synergy as exists can come either top down or bottom up. In Dominion the former has the advantage of being "applicable" more often, the latter has the advantage of not get edge cased to death and actually can be discussed in concrete or even quantifiable turns.

Regardless, the most efficient course of action isn't to read anything, it is just to go play more and observe your opponents when they beat you.

Quote
Also, even though we are all Wandering Winder, elite players are, surprisingly enough, actually not a hive mind. Everyone has their own playing style and it influences things, and some elite players are simply even better than some other elite players and that also influences things. I remember a lot of games where I went for a different strategy than my opponent, and one of us won because we both implemented our strategies fairly well and one strategy was better than the other. I don't remember a lot of games where I went for a different strategy than my opponent and felt that the winner had the worse strategy, but played it so much better that he won anyway.
Ehh its pretty hard to disambiguate "shuffle luck" from tacit timing and end game skill. When both players get up in skill, the changes we are talking about are likely less than flipping a 45-55 split to a 55-45. You'd have to squint hard to see that in a single game. We hear about the epic things (like buying an Herbalist for $11 and that being the right timing), but a lot of games have small timing choices that have a non-negligable impact on score, often a larger degree than the objective strength of the strategy. I mean consider Big Money games. If we are both playing BMX then whoever picks the better X should win ... but we had to go through a fairly extensive optimization of the end game. If you are better and deducing the point when to start swapping into Estates or when to get an extra $8 gold and I'm not doing end a solidly end game timed BM you can win with a lot weaker X's. If timing skill didn't matter you couldn't have sims get noticeably better with more in depth timing routines.



Quote
The majority of time, I'm probably going for the same strategy as my opponent, but there are times when someone tries out something new. It might be the case that there's stuff that you would try out, but an elite player wouldn't, and then we don't have data about elite players trying it out, but I'm not buying it that there's any major reason for this other than that the strategy actually isn't very good and elite players can see it without even having to try.
The odd thing is we see pretty big swings still year to year with different card rankings. This shouldn't be happening if the game is revolving around accurate picking of card strength. Changes should be relatively static and there should be convergence in elite player thought on exactly what the strong cards are. It is only where players have different tacit, tactical skills where you can have divergence.

Given that elite players are divergent on their card rankings, I think it is a safe bet that a big portion elite play (particularly given your admittance to playing a lot of mirrors) is timing skill.



Quote
If you pick a strong card like Scrying Pool and ignore it for 100 games, you will probably lose pretty much all the games where the card is on the kingdom. Which is not that many. And if you would have lost somewhere around 50% of those games anyway, it's just natural that you won't lose that many extra games because there aren't that many extra games that you could have possibly lost in the first place. Maybe there's one or even two games where ignoring Pool is actually correct, but most of the time, it won't be, and if you ignore it regardless, there's just no way you're ever winning the game against someone who doesn't.
You can safely ignore it much more often. Take Rebuild. In ~1% of Pool Games you will also have Rebuild. I can't think of a single Rebuild board where Pool is a good buy. In about .1% of Pool games you will have Hermit/Market Square which is very often going to beat Pool handily. In maybe .25% you have a viable pin deck. And so on and so forth just for the two card combos.

My guess is that you can safely ignore Pool twice as often (which is still saying Pool is exceedingly often a high power buy), but again my point isn't that some elite player is horrid at Pool. It is that even if he is relatively bad with Pool, his experience wouldn't be able to show it. You could drop 10% of your win rate with a certain card and you still wouldn't see it unless you have extremely strong recall and a good statistical sense for these sorts of things. Differentiating card strength (what people played), tacit timing skill (when/how they played it), and shuffle luck is extremely hard.

Again, if you just want to be an elite player, skip the boards. Go play or maybe watch several games. You will learn far more for your time.

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2015, 10:10:52 pm »
+1

The comment about skipping SP on ~100% of Rebuild boards is simply wrong. Would be happy to play a set of games with jomini or anyone who wants. I'll always skip Rebuild, you always skip SP.
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liopoil

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2015, 10:32:02 pm »
+2

Expecting mic to win 70%+ of those games, without regard to player strength.
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jomini

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2015, 10:23:29 am »
0

The comment about skipping SP on ~100% of Rebuild boards is simply wrong. Would be happy to play a set of games with jomini or anyone who wants. I'll always skip Rebuild, you always skip SP.

Haven't got the time at the moment, maybe in two weeks? I don't think this will determine anything other than the fact that you are indeed a better player than I; I expect you'd also beat me if I skipped Rebuild and you skipped Pool. Which again is going to make it hard to disambiguate how much of the result is due to you being a better a player, how much is due to shuffle luck, and how much is due to card strength.

Regardless, I'd be curios to know your reasoning. Why do you think this plays better? I get Pool is extremely good cycling and draw with a an attack particularly well suited to mucking around with Rebuild, but I'd think you need a decent bit of support to make Pool inherently stronger.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2015, 10:34:19 am »
0

Regardless, I'd be curios to know your reasoning. Why do you think this plays better? I get Pool is extremely good cycling and draw with a an attack particularly well suited to mucking around with Rebuild, but I'd think you need a decent bit of support to make Pool inherently stronger.

You don't need a decent bit of support to make Scrying Pool strong. Scrying Pool is the decent bit of support, and then you just need an actual strategy (i.e. payload) that you can support with it.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2015, 11:29:06 am »
+2

Haven't got the time at the moment, maybe in two weeks? I don't think this will determine anything other than the fact that you are indeed a better player than I; I expect you'd also beat me if I skipped Rebuild and you skipped Pool. Which again is going to make it hard to disambiguate how much of the result is due to you being a better a player, how much is due to shuffle luck, and how much is due to card strength.

I'm not magic. I'm just guessing and muddling through like everybody else. Maybe I muddle through a little less? I dunno. I think I remember you posting a screenshot or something of you taking a guest account pretty high on the leaderboard so I don't have any doubt that your play is skilled enough to be competitive with mine. I regularly play nice competitive games with people from 5000 on up. As an "elite" player, I am not so impressed with us to be honest. We mess up all the time!

Anyway, let me know when you have free time if you're still interested then. I agree we can't separate all the different factors out (luck, skill difference, limited number of games, etc.), it's just for fun and maybe to see some examples of where one card or the other is dominant.

Quote
Regardless, I'd be curios to know your reasoning. Why do you think this plays better? I get Pool is extremely good cycling and draw with a an attack particularly well suited to mucking around with Rebuild, but I'd think you need a decent bit of support to make Pool inherently stronger.

I think for instance that most boards with Colony will heavily favor SP. Goons/Bishop/Monument will help a lot. Vineyards or Fairgrounds should help SP. Boards with trashing, +buy/gainers, discard attacks. Cards that support big action engines like KC/TR/Procession. Bridge/Highway go really well with SP. Basically anything that can either lengthen the game (so alt-VP and attacks), shorten the SP build time (trashing/gaining), or increase the engine's power make SP a lot more attractive.

I don't know if this all sounds too obvious, I don't mean it to be. I just want to make it clear that there are a lot of cards that make SP stronger and I think if the kingdom has even a couple of the classes of cards I mentioned above SP has a good chance of beating Rebuild. In the cases where you have 3-4 of the above things (and many cards are in more than one "class"), I really like SP over Rebuild.

I guess the general idea is that Rebuild isn't enabled by many other cards, it is very strong as a baseline but doesn't improve much with other kingdom cards.  SP has a lot of enablers.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2015, 11:48:01 am »
+3

And a bit of trivia, the first kingdom I rolled last night when looking at Rebuild/SP kingdoms had

Expand, Border Village, Wharf, Rebuild, Ironworks, Conspirator, Scrying Pool, Pearl Diver with Colonies. I can't remember the last two cards and gokosalvager.com is down.

I felt like the Universe was sending me a message and didn't roll any more kingdoms.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2015, 11:58:16 am »
+2

Are you sure you are not magic?
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2015, 03:27:38 pm »
+7

So I'm a fairly new poster, maybe I can provide some useful thoughts here. I've been playing Dominion online since last summer, and I've been really playing seriously for a few months now. I always knew this site existed, and ate up all of the articles on DS.com proper as well as the wiki. I'm the kind of person with a lot to say who tends to post frequently on forums for things I'm interested in. But f.ds always seemed weird and I had trouble jumping in to post, well, anything.

I think there are a few reasons for this:
  • The forum is pretty hard to navigate; there's a ton of subforums to pilfer through just to find a half dozen recent discussions, and the layout can be confusing
  • There aren't a lot of discussions going on at any one time. People tend to avoid topics already talked about; "noob" posts asking more basic questions never seem to happen, etc. I suspect a lot of y'all have already gotten your "can you think of niche edge cases to use THIS card???" discussions out of the way.
  • The lack of active existing threads makes it hard to tell what kind of content would be tolerated / accepted - would people react positively to some thread where I just gush about how much I like Baker versus Market? Do I have enough knowledge to open a discussion about what best supports an IGG rush? Hard to gauge this sort of thing without examples

Lately I've found a thread or two I can say things on and jumped in, but I'm honestly a lot more active on Reddit or even the wiki than I am here. I'd like that to change, there's just not a lot to talk about I guess. Hopefully Adventures helps. I'm also hoping the Goko replacement simulator comes with a functional Lobby chat room, where people can casually discuss Dominion strategy; that would beget more lasting interest in the game and thus more posting.
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SCSN

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2015, 03:47:30 pm »
0

I suspect a lot of y'all have already gotten your "can you think of niche edge cases to use THIS card???" discussions out of the way.

That's certainly what you'd expect...

To get an overview of the latest posts you can use the Show unread posts since last visit link you see at the top of the forum when logged in. You can customize what boards it shows posts from depending on your interests. I get served only Dominion related stuff.
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bardo

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2015, 04:04:07 pm »
0

How do you customize which boards the "Show unread posts since last visit" link pulls from?
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2015, 04:05:56 pm »
0

How do you customize which boards the "Show unread posts since last visit" link pulls from?

Profile--> Modify Profile --> Ignore Boards Options.

A board you're ignoring won't show up when you "Show unread posts."
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Gherald

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2015, 04:12:03 pm »
0

That's nice. There's still too many sections (should be maybe 5 Dominion-related sections, not 10) but at least it's more manageable seeing only Dominion stuff.

By the way, I bet none of you knew http://boardgamestrategy.net/forum is ... this very forum, on a different URL.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2015, 04:19:20 pm »
+1

That's nice. There's still too many sections (should be maybe 5 Dominion-related sections, not 10) but at least it's more manageable seeing only Dominion stuff.

By the way, I bet none of you knew http://boardgamestrategy.net/forum is ... this very forum, on a different URL.

Yes, I knew that. theory said so when he set it up.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2015, 04:58:42 pm »
+2

I think there are a few reasons for this:
  • The forum is pretty hard to navigate; there's a ton of subforums to pilfer through just to find a half dozen recent discussions, and the layout can be confusing
  • There aren't a lot of discussions going on at any one time. People tend to avoid topics already talked about; "noob" posts asking more basic questions never seem to happen, etc. I suspect a lot of y'all have already gotten your "can you think of niche edge cases to use THIS card???" discussions out of the way.
  • The lack of active existing threads makes it hard to tell what kind of content would be tolerated / accepted - would people react positively to some thread where I just gush about how much I like Baker versus Market? Do I have enough knowledge to open a discussion about what best supports an IGG rush? Hard to gauge this sort of thing without examples

A lot of stuff is tolerated. I think usually when someone's posts aren't generally tolerated or accepted, it's because he's being arrogant and contemptuous towards other people. Or ruining a mafia game for everyone. You could totally open a discussion about what best supports an IGG rush, you could state your own opinions there and/or ask for other people's opinions, there would be an opportunity for fruitful discussion there and I'm sure nobody would mind it. But if you started insulting everyone who disagreed with you, then I don't think that would be tolerated.

It's true that we don't have a lot of newbies posting newbie stuff here, but it's not because it's not allowed, it's because people have a tendency to stop being newbies at some point when they're reading and posting a lot here, and as a result, there aren't that many newbies around. There are some examples of what isn't allowed though, but as you can see, they're super rare.

For navigation, I don't think it's very hard. The Dominion FAQ board could go I think, people confuse it with Rules Questions all the time and there aren't that many relevant things there, they could probably just be in a sticky thread somewhere else. But other than that, the boards are pretty straightforward.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:07:14 pm by Awaclus »
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2015, 07:09:15 pm »
0

I'm a newbie and have stayed around, but that's mainly because I'm interested in the forum game (check them out) and the variants forum. I expect most people who participate in the Article or Play Reports do get better.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2015, 05:41:16 am »
+7

Holy crap, this threads still on topic!
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2015, 06:25:31 am »
+2

I think the only Dominion-related topics from "newbs" that we are really annoyed of are
- card X is so overpowered you should just buy it and win trololol
- omg just play BigMoney-X, this beats everything this game suckz

While also there, it's the tone that matters, (probably most of us found this or another forum by thinking "this can't be, X is so strong there must be something wrong, lets check the internet"), but if you come here telling us that we are all idiots not understanding how simple the game is after playing in total half the games that many here play or played in a day, don't expect to get liked.

For everything else, as long as you can live with your topic getting derailed, just try it and it should go fine...
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2015, 09:02:47 am »
+2

I will agree though with some of the other posters that it is very intimidating to jump into this community. Part of that is simply that dominion is a serious game where a lot of serious thinking can go on. It is natural then that the community who takes a serious strategy game very seriously would be somewhat intimidating to join in on.
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2015, 01:01:50 pm »
+6

Thanks for all the helpful replies, everyone. Adding the filter to recent posts makes it a lot easier to navigate this website and participate.

I would just like to add that my comments were more intended as my initial perception of the forum, rather than what it accurately is. While I'm glad the forum isn't intimidating and welcomes posts like the ones I suggested, that's just kind of the initial vibe I got. Do with it what you will, just some thoughts.

Looking forward to some quality discussions about whatever niche card combo I bump into next. :)
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Re: Lack of quality posts
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2015, 01:48:13 pm »
+3

Thanks for all the helpful replies, everyone. Adding the filter to recent posts makes it a lot easier to navigate this website and participate.

I would just like to add that my comments were more intended as my initial perception of the forum, rather than what it accurately is. While I'm glad the forum isn't intimidating and welcomes posts like the ones I suggested, that's just kind of the initial vibe I got. Do with it what you will, just some thoughts.

Looking forward to some quality discussions about whatever niche card combo I bump into next. :)
I can understand where you're coming from. I think I was a lurker of awhile before finally signing up to contribute to a thread where you post your best and worst kingdom based on win rate given availability (back when Council Room was up). That thread was for fun rather than hard analysis. I imagine a lot people on the forum like the forum games, but you can't see those unless you're signed in with an account. Basically, you can't "check the forum games" until you commit to making an account.

To this day most of my posts are not related to serious Dominion analysis, despite having become a decent player at some point within the Goko era. I did write an article on Graverobber, but even writing just one article feels like a feat of bravery considering the amount of scrutiny and criticism that is typically expected from the community.

There have still been examples of new or infrequent posters providing quality posts and receiving praise for them in recent times. However, these posts often included huge amounts of statistical data, simulation data, or introduced new tools developed by the poster to the forum. Even then, the initial reception is full of comments on how to improve the quality of the data and tools, as well as inquiries on how the results were attained.

All this to say, the bar to impress the community seems pretty high these days.

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