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[Elanchana]

Code: [Select]

Candlestick Maker, Hamlet, Oracle, Gardens, Talisman, City, Count, Cultist, Upgrade, Prince
Log

Remembering my previous game with Adam, I thought this was going to be a straight dive for the Cultists to junk my opponent to breaking point - the trashing on this board was expensive and either unreliable (Count) or slow (Upgrade). I don't even know what my opponent was going for with the Oracle/Talisman opening but they got an early lead on points and handled the ruins remarkably well both with well-timed Upgrades and as benefits for Gardens. I definitely know what made me win in the end - they didn't pay attention to piles, and as a result they missed getting a lot of level three Cities and several forced wins. Seriously, the game could have ended turn 22 if they had just bought out the Candlestick Makers with Talisman.

But what did I do wrong? I was convinced I was going to lose for a long time, even when I started narrowing the point gap. I got Cultists early. I won the Ruins split 7-3. I got a ton of Cities. I watched the piles like a hawk. The only things I can think of that might have been weak are not buying anything during some of my $4 turns and not getting Upgrade earlier. What advantage did my opponent have that I didn't?

[Awaclus]

This is a tricky board to play optimally, but basically, the problem seems to be that your deck doesn't work properly. Your opponent had the exact same problem, but he made up for it by having lots of economy, while you had a deck that didn't work and didn't have economy. You could have fixed the problem by getting an early Count (with your first >=$5 hand), which is also great with the Cultists since it means you will connect your Cultists a lot and play them more often in general. Then, once you get your deck to the point where you can actually do things, you can just get some payload. On paper, Count+Upgrade to get Golds seems pretty cool, but I'm not sure if I would actually end up doing that in a real game.

A Gardens rush can be surprisingly strong here, too, so you have to watch out for that. I'm not sure, but I think it's not strong enough to beat an engine if you play it well.

[polot38]

Okay, so this is my first time trying to evaluate a game that i didn't play, so you can probably take what i say with a small grain of salt, but here goes;

My idea here would be to try and build a city engine, with probably a few oracles and hamlets thrown in because they are easy to get in the early game and can sort of help your engine. You can assume that the cities will eventually be activated due to the presence of cultist, but i wouldn't mark down piling out the ruins early as something you should go for early, especially when your opponent opens with talisman, which could indicate that they are going for gardens.

So, i would;
open silver/silver
get count ASAP
get a few cities
get a few cultists to run out the ruins, if my opponent hasn't already done so
pick up some hamlets and oracles along the way
and, of course, if my opponent goes heavily into gardens, thats OK, i'll just upgrade them into cities

as for candlestick maker... why? How does it contribute to your overall strategy?

The other option i see is going straight cultist-BM, although by your opponents opening buys, i would be suspecting them to go into gardens, so giving them 10 free cards isn't likely the greatest of ideas. The third option would be going straight for gardens, as this set has no less than 4 clear enablers of it. However, i suspect this as losing to the engine. However, the biggest point here is that it looks like you had no real game plan; a bad plan is better than just muddling through the game.

So, turn by turn (for the first 21 turns of the game):
3: Buy count, not cultist
5: ^^
7: buy Hamlet, not candlestick maker
8: you seriously need an count...
12: candlestick maker really isn't helping your engine here
13: more candlesticks to clog up your engine? this isn't good...
16: you might have been better off to discard the ruins and trash the estate for an oracle
18: i'm really not sure a hamlet is worth 2 coin tokens at this point.
19: you shouldn't have discarded the estate for a buy. The chance you need an extra buy is small at that point, and you might have drawn an upgrade with it.
20: Again, there was little reason to discard estates for buys here. It gives your opponent unnecessary information while providing almost no benefit to you, and possibly reducing the upgrade targets you may have.
21: the game is close enough to ending that you should probably be buying duchies over more cities.

[DG]

The gardens deck can definitely be strong here with counts, hamlets, candlestickmaker, maybe talisman, and the ruins will not damage it at all. I wouldn't buy an early cultist if I saw my opponent buying a talisman. An engine deck actually has some difficulty getting started as all the good stuff is locked at 5 cost and hamlets, cities, oracle, don't provide enough product early on. Silver/silver is a solid opening against a cultist opponent but it is slower than oracle/silver at building an engine to beat gardens.

[dghunter79]

I'm a believer in Candlestick Talisman Gardens! I'd open Talisman Candlestick, and buy Gardens on all non-Talisman 4s as soon as the 2nd shuffle. But maybe Hamlet is better cause of the extra card.

[pubby]

The Gardens/City interaction is neat with respect to piles. The Engine player will want to have a few max-level City turns before the game is over, but emptying piles also accelerates the Gardens rush. The Gardens player will need a strategy to empty the third pile almost immediately after the second one.

[dghunter79]

The Gardens player will need a strategy to empty the third pile almost immediately after the second one.

I think it would be easy to drain any of Gardens, Ruins, Hamlets and Candlestick Makers with enough Talismans and buys.

The Gardens player has no real need to rush, as Gardens should get up to 5 with ease and 6 if things go long. The window for Provinces to work is narrow at best!

[WanderingWinder]

Count/Gardens is a powerful strategy, and pretty resilient, but I am doubtful that it can really work against an opponent who goes for a few cultists into cities. The tricky thing, of course, is to navigate emptying the piles. This is going to make the game pretty skill-testing for both players regardless of strategy, as you need to jockey for position a few turns in advance. The exact kind of game I love.


I am not very sold on Talisman being an enabler for Gardens though.

[dghunter79]

I am not very sold on Talisman being an enabler for Gardens though.

I could be wrong there! But I played a game with Talisman, Gardens, and Worker's Village that got Gardens up to 6 by turn 14. However, that had Warehouse in it, which was a huge difference maker.

I don't think this strategy is nearly as fun subbing Hamlet for Worker's Village, and without Warehouse. 6 point Gardens are more of a reach. On the other hand, this kingdom is much easier for the solo Gardens-Talisman player to drain. Especially if the other guy goes for Cultist.

Cities will be great - but I don't see the economic payload that'll lead to much more than double-Province turns. My guess is it's not going to be able to get enough ponts before Gardens shuts the door.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120422-152838-cbada673.html