Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Losing track of revealed cards  (Read 3844 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +842
    • View Profile
Losing track of revealed cards
« on: February 24, 2015, 05:46:36 am »
+1

I have a rules question concerning the interaction between two cards I made.

   

What happens if Suburbia gets revealed by Royalty? If you choose to set it aside, Royalty loses track of it so Suburbia does not get discarded. Royalty says "Gain a card costing up to $2 more than one of the discarded cards". He expects to find Suburbia in the revealed area and fails to discard it but does he still make you or the other player gain a card because gaining is not linked with the condition that anything was discarded? Or does he not gain anything because no card was actually discarded?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 12:38:18 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1487
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 05:53:52 am »
0

I would say it is quite explicitly linked that anything gets discarded, as it references "the discarded card".
No card discarded, no gain.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 06:08:00 am »
+1

I think that the thread should be in the fan cards forum, and I also agree with DStu.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Dominionaer

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 132
  • Respect: +37
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 06:28:57 am »
0

I disagree with DStu. The "no copy if no discard" rule is intended for the situation, when all cards of a player are in his hand or set aside = no card in deck and no card in discard. For the copy-function of Jester it is only important, if a card was on top of deck.

But with Spy the situation could get lost track.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 06:40:02 am by Dominionaer »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 06:39:23 am »
0

I disagree with DStu. The "no copy if no discard" rule is intended for the situation, when all cards of a player are in his hand or set aside = no card in deck and no card in discard. For the copy-function of Jester it is only important, which card was on top of deck.

Jester doesn't say anything about gaining a copy of a card that "was on top of deck", it clearly says that you gain a copy of "the discarded card". If there is no "discarded card", there is no copy to gain, and if no card was discarded, there is no "discarded card".
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Flip5ide

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Highest Rank/Rating: 58/5600
  • Respect: +134
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 06:40:56 am »
0

It's a little vague about when you can reveal it. At any point on your turn (I'm assuming)? Reaction cards usually come with a "when" qualifier of some sort. From what I recall.
Logged
"If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything." - William Lyon Phelps

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 06:47:06 am »
0

It's a little vague about when you can reveal it. At any point on your turn (I'm assuming)? Reaction cards usually come with a "when" qualifier of some sort. From what I recall.

Suburbia itself doesn't allow you to reveal it at all. You need another card to reveal it.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Dominionaer

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 132
  • Respect: +37
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 06:49:27 am »
0

Jester doesn't say anything about gaining a copy of a card that "was on top of deck", it clearly says that you gain a copy of "the discarded card". If there is no "discarded card", there is no copy to gain, and if no card was discarded, there is no "discarded card".

Yeah, but it says "... discards the top card of his deck". And the rules state explicitly if there is no card to discard, then no copy. So I interpret : If one removes a card from top of deck that card gets copied., independ where that card finish.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 07:17:34 am »
+1

Jester doesn't say anything about gaining a copy of a card that "was on top of deck", it clearly says that you gain a copy of "the discarded card". If there is no "discarded card", there is no copy to gain, and if no card was discarded, there is no "discarded card".

Yeah, but it says "... discards the top card of his deck". And the rules state explicitly if there is no card to discard, then no copy. So I interpret : If one removes a card from top of deck that card gets copied., independ where that card finish.

The game works how the rules explicitly state it works, not how you interpret it.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +842
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 07:19:36 am »
+1

It's a little vague about when you can reveal it. At any point on your turn (I'm assuming)? Reaction cards usually come with a "when" qualifier of some sort. From what I recall.

I think, Suburbia doesn't actually need to be a Reaction because you don't need to trigger it when it is somewhere concealed (like in your hand). When you reveal it, it becomes visible to everyone and then you directly get to decide whether you do something or not. It's comparable to (optional) on-gain or on-trash effects which don't require cards to be Reactions either.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Dominionaer

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 132
  • Respect: +37
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 07:35:54 am »
0

The game works how the rules explicitly state it works, ...

Exactly!
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5355
  • Respect: +21705
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2015, 08:42:10 am »
+5

I have a rules question concerning a card I made. In this thread I would like you to help me clarify what happens in a specific situation when playing with this card. I do not expect you to review the card itself since this is not the "Variants and fan cards" subforum. Anyway, if this thread actually belongs there, please inform me.
Yes, if asking a rules question requires posting a homemade card then post it in the variants forum. I do not feel obligated to answer rules questions about hypothetical cards anyway.

What happens if Suburbia gets revealed by, let's say, Jester? If you choose to set it aside, Jester loses track of it so Suburbia does not get discarded. Jester says "he gains a copy of the discarded card or you do". He expects to find Suburbia in the revealed area and fails to discard it but does he still make you or the other player gain a card because gaining is not linked with the condition that anything was discarded? Or does he not gain anything because there was no card discarded?
Fortress for a long time triggered when trashed or revealed from your deck (it was called Border Village: https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/small-dark-ages-1.png?w=640&h=900). It was too wonky. If it had stayed doing that then Jester might have said "reveal then discard" for clarity (as it stands, Jester does not "reveal" the card, just "discards" it, and then we have to look up "reveal" and "discard" in the rulebook to see if that helps). But Fortress lost that part and so the game didn't need to support a revealing trigger.

You can dodge the question of what "discard" means by including it - "when this is revealed or discarded." You don't say "from your deck," so I can reveal it to Menagerie or Poor House or something and decide hey let's save this for next turn. Then of course you can ask, okay I play Menagerie and reveal two of this and a Copper and an Estate, I set aside one of these for next turn, now my hand has no duplicates for Menagerie right? The hand you revealed had a duplicate, but your hand doesn't.

Cards revealed from your deck are usually discarded or trashed afterwards. So you could go with "discarded or trashed" and lose the "reveal your hand" part but cleanly handle the other cases.
Logged

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +842
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2015, 09:12:47 am »
0

I have a rules question concerning a card I made. In this thread I would like you to help me clarify what happens in a specific situation when playing with this card. I do not expect you to review the card itself since this is not the "Variants and fan cards" subforum. Anyway, if this thread actually belongs there, please inform me.
Yes, if asking a rules question requires posting a homemade card then post it in the variants forum. I do not feel obligated to answer rules questions about hypothetical cards anyway.
Now I feel ashamed that I "made" you look at a fan card because of a potentially misleading thread title. I know you don't like to do that and I understand the reasons why. FWIW, I love Dominion and I also love making cards.
Anyway, should I ask Theory or another mod to move the thread? Or could you move it?

Fortress for a long time triggered when trashed or revealed from your deck (it was called Border Village: https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/small-dark-ages-1.png?w=640&h=900). It was too wonky. If it had stayed doing that then Jester might have said "reveal then discard" for clarity (as it stands, Jester does not "reveal" the card, just "discards" it, and then we have to look up "reveal" and "discard" in the rulebook to see if that helps). But Fortress lost that part and so the game didn't need to support a revealing trigger.

You can dodge the question of what "discard" means by including it - "when this is revealed or discarded." You don't say "from your deck," so I can reveal it to Menagerie or Poor House or something and decide hey let's save this for next turn. Then of course you can ask, okay I play Menagerie and reveal two of this and a Copper and an Estate, I set aside one of these for next turn, now my hand has no duplicates for Menagerie right? The hand you revealed had a duplicate, but your hand doesn't.

Cards revealed from your deck are usually discarded or trashed afterwards. So you could go with "discarded or trashed" and lose the "reveal your hand" part but cleanly handle the other cases.
I appreciate you helped me out despite the fact that you don't feel obliged to. Thank you for your suggestion :)
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1745
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2015, 09:55:58 am »
+1

FWIW, I think, in the original scenario, because Jester does not say that it reveals the card, the reaction could not be triggered.  You can see the top card of your discard, so you don't need to "reveal" the card to gain a copy. 

If there is a rulebook somewhere, that I am unaware of (or if you wanted to create the rule about discarding for this card), that says a card is revealed when it is discarded, then it would change the result. You would then be able to trigger the reaction, but since the reveal is a result of the discard, the copy should still happen, because the discard happens first, and can't be undone. 
(unless you added a Trader-like condition of "when you would discard this card")

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7914
  • Respect: +8723
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 10:56:39 am »
0

The "no copy if no discard" rule is intended for the situation, when all cards of a player are in his hand or set aside = no card in deck and no card in discard. For the copy-function of Jester it is only important, if a card was on top of deck.

While I agree that the wording is intended for a different situation, it doesn't matter. Lots of cards' wordings are written for the purpose of handling one specific thing, but still cause other various side effects.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +842
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 12:43:20 pm »
0

I realised that Jester was a bad example because it doesn't make you "reveal" any cards. However, another card I made, Royalty, does (see above). Now that we are among fan card creators and enthusiasts, I can show that card off as well^^

Now the question remains the same: How do these cards interact? I can understand both sides of the argument so far but I can't tell who is right :(

   
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

TheOthin

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 457
  • Shuffle iT Username: TheOthin
  • Respect: +444
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2015, 12:46:46 pm »
0

If Royalty reveals Suburbia, and its owner chooses to activate it, it gets set aside rather than being discarded (or put back, if its cost was reduced below $2). If they keep it from being discarded this way, the Royalty player cannot take it into account in gaining a card.
Logged

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3349
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2015, 01:53:43 pm »
0

I have a rules question concerning a card I made. In this thread I would like you to help me clarify what happens in a specific situation when playing with this card. I do not expect you to review the card itself since this is not the "Variants and fan cards" subforum. Anyway, if this thread actually belongs there, please inform me.
Yes, if asking a rules question requires posting a homemade card then post it in the variants forum. I do not feel obligated to answer rules questions about hypothetical cards anyway.

What happens if Suburbia gets revealed by, let's say, Jester? If you choose to set it aside, Jester loses track of it so Suburbia does not get discarded. Jester says "he gains a copy of the discarded card or you do". He expects to find Suburbia in the revealed area and fails to discard it but does he still make you or the other player gain a card because gaining is not linked with the condition that anything was discarded? Or does he not gain anything because there was no card discarded?
Fortress for a long time triggered when trashed or revealed from your deck (it was called Border Village: https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/small-dark-ages-1.png?w=640&h=900). It was too wonky. If it had stayed doing that then Jester might have said "reveal then discard" for clarity (as it stands, Jester does not "reveal" the card, just "discards" it, and then we have to look up "reveal" and "discard" in the rulebook to see if that helps). But Fortress lost that part and so the game didn't need to support a revealing trigger.

You can dodge the question of what "discard" means by including it - "when this is revealed or discarded." You don't say "from your deck," so I can reveal it to Menagerie or Poor House or something and decide hey let's save this for next turn. Then of course you can ask, okay I play Menagerie and reveal two of this and a Copper and an Estate, I set aside one of these for next turn, now my hand has no duplicates for Menagerie right? The hand you revealed had a duplicate, but your hand doesn't.

Cards revealed from your deck are usually discarded or trashed afterwards. So you could go with "discarded or trashed" and lose the "reveal your hand" part but cleanly handle the other cases.

Basically Donald is saying 'Yes'
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1745
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2015, 01:54:47 pm »
0

I agree with TheOthin.  If there is only one opponent (or all opponents set aside Sububria), You would gain a card at all because there is no discarded card. 

If your opponent reveals their entire deck (e.g. all Coppers and Estates) they also don't discard a card, and you would not gain anything.  This would be an equivalent scenario (no card was discarded).

If you want to change the interaction, you would need to somehow refer to the "revealed action/treasure costing $2 or more" in the gain section, but you may be out of space on the card for that.

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +842
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2015, 02:05:24 pm »
0

I agree with TheOthin.  If there is only one opponent (or all opponents set aside Sububria), You would gain a card at all because there is no discarded card. 

If your opponent reveals their entire deck (e.g. all Coppers and Estates) they also don't discard a card, and you would not gain anything.  This would be an equivalent scenario (no card was discarded).

If you want to change the interaction, you would need to somehow refer to the "revealed action/treasure costing $2 or more" in the gain section, but you may be out of space on the card for that.

No, it's fine if Suburbia annuls Royalty's gaining. And you think it will, right?
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2015, 02:18:10 pm »
0

How do these cards interact? I can understand both sides of the argument so far but I can't tell who is right :(

Intuitively I'd say that the arguments based on what the rules actually are are probably better than the arguments based on "interpretations" of the rules.

No, it's fine if Suburbia annuls Royalty's gaining. And you think it will, right?

It will.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2015, 03:25:49 pm »
0

My 2: I think the on-reveal mechanic is too wonky to be worth it, as Donald's Menagerie example shows. I'm all for cool new mechanics, but I think the pros outweigh the cons here.
Logged

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +842
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2015, 03:49:53 pm »
+1

My 2: I think the on-reveal mechanic is too wonky to be worth it, as Donald's Menagerie example shows. I'm all for cool new mechanics, but I think the pros outweigh the cons here.

You probably mean "the cons outweigh the pros here"? Anyway, I came to the same conclusion just recently as I thought about the interactions with Golem and Herald. I assume these would play Suburbia even if they lost track of it and then things would get really confusing.
Well, the "on-discard" reaction is still an option, although you said it wasn't great in your experience. I think if any type of card could use this bottom part, it's a disappearing village.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2015, 03:51:50 pm »
0

You probably mean "the cons outweigh the pros here"?

Ha ha, yes! Thanks.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7914
  • Respect: +8723
    • View Profile
Re: Losing track of revealed cards
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2015, 04:12:04 pm »
+2

See also: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5168 and http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8397. I know that there was some other thread talking about "when you reveal" as a reaction timing, but I can't find it.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.087 seconds with 21 queries.