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Author Topic: One card - big money  (Read 7778 times)

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DrHades

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One card - big money
« on: December 23, 2011, 03:34:36 pm »
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How much money can you get by playing just one card (just by playing it)?

Example: You can get a lot of usefull cards from Native Village, but that does not count because you did not get any money just from playing NV.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2011, 03:47:16 pm »
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Thousands. Vault (or possibly Secret Chamber too), and it devolves into how many cards can you get in your hand at once.

jonts26

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 03:58:17 pm »
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Thousands. Vault (or possibly Secret Chamber too), and it devolves into how many cards can you get in your hand at once.

Well this requires playing other cards prior to this to get a hand size of a thousand. If the intent of the puzzle is just my deck is single action + money it constrains it somewhat.

I'm sure theres better answers but how about Envoy. It gves you an 8 card hand, lets say 5 plats and 3 banks for $46.
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greatexpectations

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 04:01:25 pm »
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I'm sure theres better answers but how about Envoy. It gves you an 8 card hand, lets say 5 plats and 3 banks for $46.

i am abusing his wording, but tactician would work with that idea too.  it is a single action and he didn't specify when you got that money.
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Davio

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 04:06:53 pm »
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Surely, someone has to mention Venture.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 04:17:37 pm »
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Surely, someone has to mention Venture.

Technically, venture will only ever get you $1. Philosopher's Stone, on the other hand...[/quote]

jonts26

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 04:19:22 pm »
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So Tactician turn, you have a venture and 9 banks in hand. Play the venture finding 9 more then a bank. So lets see thats $10 for the ventures and the banks are worth $155 for a total of $165 and two whole buys to spend it on.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 04:26:53 pm »
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So Tactician turn, you have a venture and 9 banks in hand. Play the venture finding 9 more then a bank. So lets see thats $10 for the ventures and the banks are worth $155 for a total of $165 and two whole buys to spend it on.
You can definitely have a philosopher's stone worth more than at least that first bank that got played[/quote]

DrHades

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 04:28:02 pm »
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You can play as many actions prior as you like...so Venture/Secret chamber might be right answer, but how much it will cost? Definitely not thousands, you will never be able to even get 1000 cards in your deck, not to mention getting them in your hand.

I thought my example was pretty clear - Tactians does give you 0 money when you play him, Venture gives you 1.

Sorry for my English, I am not a native speaker  ;D

Forgot to say - In a 2 player game (sometimes it might make a difference)...
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jonts26

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 04:36:19 pm »
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=545.0

You can get a pretty large hand size.
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DrHades

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 04:48:22 pm »
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=545.0

You can get a pretty large hand size.

Yes, but this won't get to 1000. There are not enough cards in the supply...someone was counting this in that topic, but he counted wrong for the BM...
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jonts26

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 04:52:35 pm »
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Well it depends on how many basic treasures you put in. There isn't really an official limit. Donald X. has stated that there's only so many of those treasures in the supply because you can only have a finite number of cards ship with the game. If it was possible, there would be an infinite number of them.
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DrHades

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 04:57:29 pm »
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Well it depends on how many basic treasures you put in. There isn't really an official limit. Donald X. has stated that there's only so many of those treasures in the supply because you can only have a finite number of cards ship with the game. If it was possible, there would be an infinite number of them.

Okay, point taken. So different question: How much can a Diadem cost? (I thought Diadem might be a correct answer and I was wondering if anyone else would think about Diadem too)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2011, 05:06:23 pm »
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=545.0

You can get a pretty large hand size.

Yes, but this won't get to 1000. There are not enough cards in the supply...someone was counting this in that topic, but he counted wrong for the BM...
The official rules say that you can have as many basic treasures in the supply as you want, so...
Actually, this makes the phil stone possibly be worth 'arbitrarily large number', but if we ignore this, and we ignore the infinite possibilities from possession...
You want a black market with every card not in your supply in it (probably not all necessary, but hey, why not?)
You'll use a single scrying pool to grab up all the actions in your deck.
Then you want to KC a bunch of crossroads (at least you want island, great hall, and nobles in the supply), Council Rooms, and Envoys, then throne room whatever 3-draw cards you feel like, maybe with some cities if you're actually running out of actions there. Then smash a Vault down, and yeah, you can get OVER NINE THOUSAND. Okay, not actually sure if 9000 is possible there. It would help if opponents had built you up with governors, too. I'm sure you can do better, but... eh. I don't care THAT much.

WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2011, 05:10:30 pm »
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Well it depends on how many basic treasures you put in. There isn't really an official limit. Donald X. has stated that there's only so many of those treasures in the supply because you can only have a finite number of cards ship with the game. If it was possible, there would be an infinite number of them.

Okay, point taken. So different question: How much can a Diadem cost? (I thought Diadem might be a correct answer and I was wondering if anyone else would think about Diadem too)
Well, 10 King's Courts, 1 crossroads (nothing else gives so many actions), let's say 10 cities, a trusty steed, 10 Throne rooms, Black Market, with young witch in it (you want a bane for an extra supply pile), Golem, the rest of your kingdom is villages, the rest of the villages are in the BM, punch up a bunch of cities, king your golems, have those hit thrones and the thrones hit villages, then play the rest of your villages... I don't feel like actually calculating, but it's in the several hundreds.

glasser

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2011, 09:43:17 pm »
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Er, isn't the answer Pirate Ship, where a single play is basically worth up to (roughly) the total number of treasure cards in the supply + opening coppers + black market + diadem, minus however many you need to leave around to prevent three-piling?
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guided

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2011, 01:51:28 am »
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Er, isn't the answer Pirate Ship, where a single play is basically worth up to (roughly) the total number of treasure cards in the supply + opening coppers + black market + diadem, minus however many you need to leave around to prevent three-piling?
I find it likely that this exceeds the theoretical maximum for Vault or Bank. You can set up a Kingdom consisting of nothing but Pirate Ship and 9 Treasure cards, plus Potion and Platinum, and you don't need to build a giant draw engine that burns through a bunch of cards to effect the drawing that is needed for Vault or Bank. I sincerely doubt you can do better with Diadem even if you limit the Supply of basic treasures to the cards in the Base set, but I'd have to do the math on how a big KC/TR chain would play out. The Diadem solution will want Black Market: put Young Witch in the BM deck to get an 11th pile, get Tournament out of the BM deck (instead of wasting a whole pile on it), and pull a single Crossroads and any other spare Villages that aren't already Kingdom piles out of the BM deck too..
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play2draw

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2011, 03:15:13 am »
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Er, isn't the answer Pirate Ship, where a single play is basically worth up to (roughly) the total number of treasure cards in the supply + opening coppers + black market + diadem, minus however many you need to leave around to prevent three-piling?
I find it likely that this exceeds the theoretical maximum for Vault or Bank. You can set up a Kingdom consisting of nothing but Pirate Ship and 9 Treasure cards, plus Potion and Platinum, and you don't need to build a giant draw engine that burns through a bunch of cards to effect the drawing that is needed for Vault or Bank. I sincerely doubt you can do better with Diadem even if you limit the Supply of basic treasures to the cards in the Base set, but I'd have to do the math on how a big KC/TR chain would play out. The Diadem solution will want Black Market: put Young Witch in the BM deck to get an 11th pile, get Tournament out of the BM deck (instead of wasting a whole pile on it), and pull a single Crossroads and any other spare Villages that aren't already Kingdom piles out of the BM deck too..

For the Pirate Ship solution Black market must be added. You're able to trash more treasures because of this. You can trash 1 copy of each other treasure card, add tournament to the game to get diadem, and use masquerade or ambassador to feed your own starting coppers to your opponents. The number of trashable treasures is larger in such a setup.
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dondon151

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2011, 03:20:00 am »
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If you have Young Witch in the Black Market, the Bane pile can be FG or Loan.
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Markov Chain

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2011, 10:53:45 pm »
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And nobody on this thread has yet mentioned that you can King's Court the Pirate Ship to triple its value.
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Yariv

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2011, 12:19:42 pm »
+1

For vault analysis, we need to calculate the number of cards we can have in the deck and the number of cards we need to play in order to draw all of them. So, assume BM in game, YW active, potions active and Colony/Platinum as well. This gives us 246 (38 Victory, 158 Treasure, 10 Curse, 10 BM, 25 BM deck, 5 prizes) cards + 10 Kingdom decks for the game, for 346 cards in game, we must leave at least 19 in supply or game ends, but most of those can be gained on last turn by playing some actions - Ironworks/Uni (if we assume having only KC as above 5$ action or 4$ card, possibly only 6 cards will remain in supply when we play vault - Gold, Platinum, Duchy, Province, Colony, KC). So, we are talking on up to 330 cards deck during last turn (in which we start with 317 in deck), BTW, I'm assuming opponent was inactive, not actually helped by giving his cards as well, can be done using Amb, and can go to 0 cards without trashing by collaborating and using both Amb and Masq. But how do we draw so many cards? The best draw comes from Crossroads for up to 44 cards (33 basic victories+11 from BM deck, Farmland must be bought with no card in hand. Also assuming we have 44 cards in hand, otherwise it's a hand multiplier), then +4 from Council Room/Envoy (Tactician gives 5, but can't be courted). So, start with KC->KC->(CR(12 cards draw, 14 cards hand), Crossroads (for 13,26,44 cards), KC->(IW,IW,KC->(IW,Uni,KC->(Crossroads, Crossroads, Vault)))). This gives a total draw of 365 cards. We played 14 cards and can now discard 315 on the vault for 315$.

I'll try to find how much you can get from Diadem, it will probably not be higher, as you can get only ~220 actions from the TR-KC chain, using Tributes and villages.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 12:22:00 pm by Yariv »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 01:16:10 pm »
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For vault analysis, we need to calculate the number of cards we can have in the deck and the number of cards we need to play in order to draw all of them. So, assume BM in game, YW active, potions active and Colony/Platinum as well. This gives us 246 (38 Victory, 158 Treasure, 10 Curse, 10 BM, 25 BM deck, 5 prizes) cards + 10 Kingdom decks for the game, for 346 cards in game, we must leave at least 19 in supply or game ends, but most of those can be gained on last turn by playing some actions - Ironworks/Uni (if we assume having only KC as above 5$ action or 4$ card, possibly only 6 cards will remain in supply when we play vault - Gold, Platinum, Duchy, Province, Colony, KC). So, we are talking on up to 330 cards deck during last turn (in which we start with 317 in deck), BTW, I'm assuming opponent was inactive, not actually helped by giving his cards as well, can be done using Amb, and can go to 0 cards without trashing by collaborating and using both Amb and Masq. But how do we draw so many cards? The best draw comes from Crossroads for up to 44 cards (33 basic victories+11 from BM deck, Farmland must be bought with no card in hand. Also assuming we have 44 cards in hand, otherwise it's a hand multiplier), then +4 from Council Room/Envoy (Tactician gives 5, but can't be courted). So, start with KC->KC->(CR(12 cards draw, 14 cards hand), Crossroads (for 13,26,44 cards), KC->(IW,IW,KC->(IW,Uni,KC->(Crossroads, Crossroads, Vault)))). This gives a total draw of 365 cards. We played 14 cards and can now discard 315 on the vault for 315$.

I'll try to find how much you can get from Diadem, it will probably not be higher, as you can get only ~220 actions from the TR-KC chain, using Tributes and villages.
Please read post 13. You should be able to do much better than that.

ghostofmars

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 08:08:21 am »
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Please read post 13. You should be able to do much better than that.

I think KC golem into TR -> village is not a good idea:
KC -> golem -> 6x TR-> village nets 11 actions
6xTR -> village also nets 11 actions and you didn't use a KC and a golem

What I would do
TR-KC chain -> 9 (2x) and 20 (3x) plays
10 x KC-tribute = 120
10 x KC-university = 60 (and gain rest of villages)
9 x TR-city = 36
golem -> city, bazaar = 3
10x shanty town = 10
10x mining village = 10
10x nobles = 10
10x farming village = 10
10x fishing village = 10
10x worker's village = 10
village, festival, shanty town, walled village, trusty steed, inn, border village, hamlet, crossroads, tactician (last turn) = 11
the one action I have every turn is spent to start of the TR-KC chain
=> 290 actions
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WanderingWinder

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 10:01:44 am »
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Please read post 13. You should be able to do much better than that.

I think KC golem into TR -> village is not a good idea:
KC -> golem -> 6x TR-> village nets 11 actions
6xTR -> village also nets 11 actions and you didn't use a KC and a golem

6XTR->Village gives at best 7 actions net, with maximum TR chaining. Also, I wouldn't TR villages straight off, I'd TR TRs into TRs into TRs villages and whatnot.

ghostofmars

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Re: One card - big money
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 03:18:43 am »
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6XTR->Village gives at best 7 actions net, with maximum TR chaining. Also, I wouldn't TR villages straight off, I'd TR TRs into TRs into TRs villages and whatnot.
Perhaps my notation was not clear. I wanted all 6 TR to be chained, so that you can double 6 villages, which nets you 11 actions (6x +2actions - 1 to play the first TR). In the solution I suggested, I played chain 10xTR into 10xKC which yields 9xTR actions and 20x KC actions.
Nevertheless I stand by my point that a golem into TR or villages is not more efficient than TR the villages directly. A golem gives you at most 1 extra action (or 3/5 actions if you TR/KC it), which is exactly the same as a village.
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