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Author Topic: Province / Colony Games  (Read 7846 times)

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Hurr

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Province / Colony Games
« on: December 23, 2011, 03:29:20 pm »
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For quite some time I played almost exclusively Colony games, but since the lobby changes have made it impossible to find opponents without Automatch and card restraints are no longer legal, it's nearly impossible to play Colony games (except randomly of course). Dominion is so much less fun now. Variance is just so, so high, and it seems like decisions are nearly irrelevant. Engines are almost never viable and BM/X reigns supreme.

This game is a pretty good example of what I'm talking with variance: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-120646-f20e0968.html
I wouldn't go so far as to say I was very unlucky or my opponent was very lucky. It's not like I got the Baron-C-C-C-C hand or my opponent played 9 Witches in a row; these hands will seal a Colony game too. I just feel I played infinitely better than my opponent, who is in full-on Village idiot mode (in a Mountebank kingdom!), but the short game length makes this irrelevant. Just one or two slightly sub/above-par draws is enough to swing an entire game.

This isn't just a bad beat post. I don't care about rankings or results. What I am wondering is why Colony games, which are inherently deeper and thus to me much more fun, are not the norm.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 03:31:26 pm by Hurr »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2011, 03:44:55 pm »
+2

For quite some time I played almost exclusively Colony games, but since the lobby changes have made it impossible to find opponents without Automatch and card restraints are no longer legal, it's nearly impossible to play Colony games (except randomly of course). Dominion is so much less fun now. Variance is just so, so high, and it seems like decisions are nearly irrelevant. Engines are almost never viable and BM/X reigns supreme.
Ok... Not at all true, but ok...

Quote
This game is a pretty good example of what I'm talking with variance: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-120646-f20e0968.html
I wouldn't go so far as to say I was very unlucky or my opponent was very lucky. It's not like I got the Baron-C-C-C-C hand or my opponent played 9 Witches in a row; these hands will seal a Colony game too. I just feel I played infinitely better than my opponent, who is in full-on Village idiot mode (in a Mountebank kingdom!), but the short game length makes this irrelevant. Just one or two slightly sub/above-par draws is enough to swing an entire game.
Okay, I'm actually not sure who played better here, you or him, but you certainly didn't play 'infinitely better' and he's certainly not in full-on village idiot mode.

Quote
This isn't just a bad beat post.
Yeah, it is.
Quote
I don't care about rankings or results. What I am wondering is why Colony games, which are inherently deeper and thus to me much more fun, are not the norm.
Okay, but they aren't inherently deeper. They're different, but that doesn't make them deeper.

jsh357

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 03:46:44 pm »
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Colony games are probably going to get even rarer once the final expansions are out, since the default method of having them depends on the number of Prosperity cards.  I'm not sure how I feel about it, but a lot of my friends don't like playing with Colonies too much so it may be for the best.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 03:56:40 pm »
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there was some similar discussion on colony games here a while back.

WanderingWinder already hit a few of my objections.  i would add that ninjabus had a few unfortunate draws too.  a turn 5 hand of CCEEE and a turn 6 hand with all three terminals is not how you want things to go. but whatever, that is part of the game.

yes, colony games should reduce variance, but that amount is unclear and will vary board to board. a single close loss to the 15th best player on isotropic is not really convincing me to play colonies every time.
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werothegreat

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 04:08:37 pm »
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Yeah, you can still require cards or require that they not be there.  It may not count to your ranking, but you can certainly do it.  Just put "colony" in the required bar, and it'll put Colonies and Platinums in.  I mean personally, I tend to play more IRL since I tend to get my ass handed to me on iso, but if you really love Colonies that much, you can always buy the Propserity set and kidnap some friends.
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Davio

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 04:11:38 pm »
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I doubt whether Colony over Province decreases variance that much.

Most of the time, a Dominion game is a race to the most important card and whoever gets that card first, usually wins.
In Colony games, Platinum is obviously a big target. In Province games, it can be Gold or that crucial first Goons.
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Elyv

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 04:29:58 pm »
+1

I think NinjaBus getting a bunch of Worker's Villages was actually really clever; it means all he needs to do to get a province is forge two 4s.

Also as greatexpectations mentioned, NinjaBus is good, so losing to him is not a convincing argument.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 04:45:49 pm »
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I think NinjaBus getting a bunch of Worker's Villages was actually really clever; it means all he needs to do to get a province is forge two 4s.

Also as greatexpectations mentioned, NinjaBus is good, so losing to him is not a convincing argument.
Well, just because he's a good player doesn't mean he can't play a terrible game.
On the other hand, it should tell you that you need to really think through what he did, 'cause there's very likely a good reason for it. You don't want to dismiss it out of hand.

Geronimoo

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 05:02:08 pm »
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Forging two Worker's Villages into a Province is clever, but I'd rather be a little dumb and play a Gold (Forge), 2 Silvers (2 Worker's Village) and a random Copper to just buy that Province and do it again a few turns later with those same cards....

If you look closely at the game you'll notice NinjaBus started buying the Villages when his Mountebanks collided turn 6. It's a normal human reaction (but definitely suboptimal).
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DG

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 05:33:59 pm »
+1

To my mind the problem here seems to be a forging problem. Using forges on 5 card hands isn't a great idea. If you're discarding your worst card to a mountebank to prevent the attack then it looks even worse. The NinjaBus solution seems to be to draw up many cards and get value from forging a big hand. Once the big hand is forged then it's likely to draw well again and again. It would bring the throne into play too. Will it work often, who knows, probably not the simulator.

In terms of province vs colony I'd say it needs slightly different skills. Province games can become sprints with one or two draws determining the winner so acceleration can be as important as control. Cheap and fast decks with deteriorating quality can prevail and there's nothing wrong with that. Colony games generally require better deck building but when they turn into simple slogs through a pile of treasure they are worse than similar province games. They just they take longer to reach the same conclusion.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 05:55:21 pm »
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Building a Village/Smithy engine to enable Forge in a Mountebank game just seems a little far fetched, DG, don't you think?
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dondon151

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 06:52:20 pm »
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If you're discarding your worst card to a mountebank to prevent the attack then it looks even worse.

If you have a Forge in hand, though, I don't think you would. By the time one can buy a Forge and get it into his hand, chances are the Curses have run out from the Mountebanks. In that case, I'd much rather take a Copper and forge away a Curse.
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Hurr

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 07:01:05 pm »
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Yeah, you can still require cards or require that they not be there.  It may not count to your ranking, but you can certainly do it.  Just put "colony" in the required bar, and it'll put Colonies and Platinums in.  I mean personally, I tend to play more IRL since I tend to get my ass handed to me on iso, but if you really love Colonies that much, you can always buy the Propserity set and kidnap some friends.

There are two problems with this.

1. A lot of players won't play unranked games, especially good ones.
2. Since the lobby was changed not to sort in join order, it's very difficult to find people who aren't AFK for just randomly proposing games.
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DG

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2011, 07:19:55 pm »
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Quote
Building a Village/Smithy engine to enable Forge in a Mountebank game just seems a little far fetched, DG, don't you think?

Ok, no more attempts to explain someone else's play then :) .
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painted_cow

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2011, 07:22:49 pm »
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[...]but the short game length makes this irrelevant. Just one or two slightly sub/above-par draws is enough to swing an entire game.

I loled, you call 27 turns short?

Any why are you angry, when a player who got at least 10 levels more than you beats you? I didnt even look at the log, but I am sure, that you didnt play this game really good.
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Hurr

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2011, 07:58:58 pm »
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[...]but the short game length makes this irrelevant. Just one or two slightly sub/above-par draws is enough to swing an entire game.

I loled, you call 27 turns short?

Any why are you angry, when a player who got at least 10 levels more than you beats you? I didnt even look at the log, but I am sure, that you didnt play this game really good.

Sweet troll dude. I was going to defend myself but you have a bunch of levels on me so clearly there's nothing I can say that has any value.
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painted_cow

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2011, 08:44:26 pm »
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Variance is just so, so high, and it seems like decisions are nearly irrelevant. Engines are almost never viable and BM/X reigns supreme.

When you say something like that, which is quite wrong and then posting a "badbeat story like this", what are you expecting?

Of course you have slightly more time in Colony games, but if your opponent lucks himself to Platinum like Turn 6 or 7 he is as likely to win. And no comment to that troll thing. You maybe write your arguments about your topic, but I see only whine so far.
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DrHades

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2011, 10:57:44 pm »
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I think he played that game very well - openning with HT to get a quick Mountebank, 2 early Mountebanks, then Village, because he needs some actions, and then Village/Smithy idea to play the Mountebank more often and also to trash Coppers and Curses in one big Forge turn (not to mention 2 Villages to a Province in the endgame).

You OTOH played a dumb (sorry, but it's true) BM-Mountebank strategy (with Forge as a bonus).

I don't know which one of you has better chances (maybe Geronimoo would be able to answer), but your opponent played an interesting strategy and you played a noninteresting BM. So you should be happy that the BM lost  ;)

And about the luck - he had 5 Villages yet look at turn 17 - He has 3 terminals and isn't even able to at least Forge something into Province or Gold!

PS: I personally think that Colony/Platinum adds more luck to the game, but I never thought about this deeply, so it is just an opinion, nothing more...
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werothegreat

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2011, 02:40:09 am »
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As an observation, from IRL (which I play more often), Colony games tend to take longer, but they add a certain spice.  It's very satisfying to play Platinums, and usually very satisfying to play the expensive cards that merit Colony games, like King's Court and Bank.  But it's definitely not something I'd want all the time.  I really dislike playing the same setup multiple times (though I've kind of hardened myself to the First Game setup since I end up introducing a lot of people to the game, though there is still a lot of variety and strategy to explore in that set), or even playing with the same card multiple times.  As much as I like Grand Market, I would get irritated if it was in my setup for more than a couple games in a row.  And Colonies and Platinums are really an addition - they're quite fun when played in moderation, but are nonetheless superfluous.  They're really an extra two Kingdom cards you can add to any setup of 10.  So I dunno.  I'm probably just rambling at this point.
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Kore

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2011, 02:42:04 am »
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So what exactly beats Double Mountebank here?

My basic simulations show Double Mountebank + BM crushing anything fancy with workers village + smithy + forge + mountebank by 80%/20%. It could be that I haven't found the right combination for this but my instinct says that it's not a good idea. Smithy + Village isn't the strongest of draw engines and it won't get any better when Mountebank filling up your deck with junk.

Double Mountebank ties with Horse Traders + double Mountebank which I was not expecting and it seems that adding a forge is a really bad idea. It's simply a waste of time as you won't get to play it more than 1-2 times before the game is over and when you buy it, you don't have many reshuffles left.

My analysis of the game is that both players made mistakes and would have been better off sticking to Horse Traders/Silver into double Mountebanks. Forge is a trap on this kingdom.
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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2011, 04:17:06 am »
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Especially in curse games, I don't think variance is reduced in Colony games at all. I often had games which ended something like 80-20 because one player was able to get an early Gold why the other one didn't, followed by a second Gold, and a Platinum, and so on. Same strategies, one good draw, and all can be over.
Oh, and how often do you hate being stuck at 8 in Colony games? In Province games, being stuck at 5 normally isn't nearly as bad because there are plenty of good 5$-cards.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2011, 05:38:43 am »
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Simulations suggest to open Sea Hag/Silver, get a Mountebank or 2, then just go big money (yes, it's boring, yes, it's unimaginative, yes, it wins most often)
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2011, 07:11:53 am »
+1

What I am wondering is why Colony games, which are inherently deeper and thus to me much more fun, are not the norm.

Because Colonies are not included in either of the two stand-alone Dominion sets and only exist in one of an ever increasing number of expansions to the game whose rules state that even when you use said expansion, you do not always use the Colony cards. Simple really.
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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2011, 01:30:28 am »
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Engines are almost never viable and BM/X reigns supreme.
Yeah OK buddy.
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werothegreat

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Re: Province / Colony Games
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2011, 11:20:24 am »
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By the way, how did you ever find Dominion fun before Prosperity came out?
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