Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Gokodom IV this summer?  (Read 8974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1223
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1278
    • View Profile
Gokodom IV this summer?
« on: February 12, 2015, 01:21:43 am »
+5

This is me just throwing out ideas, but I think that gokodom IV could totally happen this summer.  Obviously it can't happen anytime soon with League and World Cup going on, but I think forecasting it for June/July sign-ups/building interest/getting people to help Kirian organize stuff because it will probably be a massive tournament and starting in July/August seems reasonable.  Which also makes me posting this in February seem super early, but other people brought it up first and I got excited.
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Heisenberg

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 59
  • I am the one who knocks!
  • Respect: +31
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 01:43:12 am »
0

Yes, and it would be even more interesting if it included the new Adventures Expansion.
Logged

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 07:27:18 am »
0

I believe in previous tournaments we have actually excluded new expansions because not enough was known about them...

Anyway, I would totally play. One of my favorite things about Isodom/gokodom was the themed weeks, where half the cards in a set had to be from a certain expansion. It was interesting to see which expansions you were best with. Granted, that was much easier in Isodom...

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 09:31:14 am »
+3

I believe in previous tournaments we have actually excluded new expansions because not enough was known about them...

We'll just hope that MF includes the ability to select which of your sets you play with in your games, because you better believe I'm buying Adventures online and IRL the first chance I get.

I like the idea of having Adventures included, myself, but I realize this would give playtesters a huge advantage in the tournament. I remember after I had been playtesting for a while, more people were brought on so more games could be played. There was a period of a couple of weeks where I was consistently beating players who were much, much better than me just because I had more time with the new cards than they did. That didn't last long :P

I don't think the League was intended to be done instead of big tournaments like GokoDom, GokoDom and the F.DS Championships brought in a different crowd of people than the League does, and I actually enjoy the format more. That plus making the finals of GD3 was probably the best experience I've ever had playing Dominion, given that it led (in part) to me being a playtester for the new set.

I wonder if it's possible for the League to take some time off to do GokoDom or something similar again?
Logged
I respond to PMs.

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2566
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4297
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 09:33:13 am »
+2

I would prefer smaller tournaments than the League to happen once in a while.  I like to play in them, but the League is just so much commitment. There are probably players who can't keep the scheduling up consistently.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 10:03:31 am »
0

I would prefer smaller tournaments than the League to happen once in a while.  I like to play in them, but the League is just so much commitment. There are probably players who can't keep the scheduling up consistently.
This is why I dropped out of league part way through season 3 I think it was.  The times I was actually able to schedule with people, they weren't able to do, and when they were, one of us would forget and so nothing got done. 

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 10:04:15 am »
0

Also, Adam, can't you just start casual games and put a string in there (using the extension...) that only selects certain cards or something?

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2015, 11:01:36 am »
+1

Also, Adam, can't you just start casual games and put a string in there (using the extension...) that only selects certain cards or something?

Yeah you can but it gets messy when tournament rules require you to have Salvager, you potentially shut out people who don't want to play with the extension (like WW) and you have to teach people like me how to use the Kingdom Generator properly.

It can be done but it would be much cleaner if it was part of the normal interface. Right now I'm in Assume-MF-Delivers-Adventures-And-The-New-Revamped-Version-Of-Dominion-By-The-Time-Adventures-Is-Released-And-Then-Be-Disappointed-When-They-Don't mode, so of course it will get done! ;D
Logged
I respond to PMs.

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4331
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 11:02:35 am »
+3

I would prefer smaller tournaments than the League to happen once in a while.  I like to play in them, but the League is just so much commitment. There are probably players who can't keep the scheduling up consistently.
I very much agree with this, but I don't get at all why you mention it here.
Both Gokodom and the f.ds championship were far more of a time-commitment for me then a season of the League (as a player that is).
First of all you have the reduced flexibility (need to schedule every week) and second it's just more weeks. I guess that's not true if you just get kicked out soon but that didn't happen for me.
More importantly: I don't like the very long stage of such tournaments where I play much weaker opponents and I can't actually "win" mentally. All I can accomplish is not-lose.

If you would use the same argument to advocate more one-day cups, I'd totally agree. They were fun.


I wonder if it's possible for the League to take some time off to do GokoDom or something similar again?
I'm willing to put anything to a vote, and if the majority of league players vote for it go with it.
Personally, I would strongly be against it though. I'd much rather see Kirian join the league organisation if he wants to do another tournament.
Gokodom was great, when the alternative was not-Gokodom. But I'd much rather do another league season then play in gokodom.

...and I actually enjoy the format more...
Could you elaborate on that? I really don't get it. Literally the only argument I see in favor of Gokodom is "let's relive the good old times".
I know it's a strange thing to say to the person that made it to the finals, but I would consider it a flaw in the setup that someone who is nowhere near the 2nd strongest person in the tournament makes it to the finals. You may consider it "boring" that the league only has had two different winners so far, but I consider that a big compliment to the system.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 11:29:31 am »
+3

...and I actually enjoy the format more...
Could you elaborate on that? I really don't get it. Literally the only argument I see in favor of Gokodom is "let's relive the good old times".
I know it's a strange thing to say to the person that made it to the finals, but I would consider it a flaw in the setup that someone who is nowhere near the 2nd strongest person in the tournament makes it to the finals. You may consider it "boring" that the league only has had two different winners so far, but I consider that a big compliment to the system.

So the specific thing I was referring to there is that I think I'd get more enjoyment out of the League if you had to do one match per week, and you were forced to pace your games througout the season. I realize that this is probably weird and it seems better to give people flexibility, but people like this do exist. In GokoDom you had to do one match per week because of the format of the tournament.

It seems that someone like you who is just really really good wouldn't enjoy GokoDom for the reasons you said, but that doesn't mean other people wouldn't enjoy it. If the goal of the tournament is to find the best player competing in it, then yeah the League format is probably best at that because it minimizes the effect of upsets. And I also think that really really good players have more fun doing it. But something else that doesn't do that will result in a different style of tournament where there's more excitement. Someone like me can be playing well and get the spotlight and be the underdog and have their chance to take down one of the big dogs where they wouldn't otherwise have it, and that can be really exciting to be a part of or to watch on a live stream.

"Exciting" vs. "boring" matches probably don't resonate with a really really good player, and it probably shouldn't, but it might with someone like me. If I played you in a GokoDom match, say in the finals, I'm really excited about that match because either I win and it's a huge deal for me or I lose and I just got crushed by someone really good and I probably learned a lot from it -- I had both of those experiences in GD3 and they both felt amazing. But the people I was playing didn't really have any upside -- like you said, all they can do is "not lose." In the League, if I was in division A and I won a match, big deal, my job is far from done before anything cool happens to me. I have to be really really good and consistent to get to the top.

I don't think the League should change, and I think the League is better at measuring skill, but I had way more viewers on my stream for my matches in the GD3 finals (even when streaming was just getting started) then I think we've ever had for a League Champion match. Just a different perspective.

I think there's probably a place for both styles of tournaments and we shouldn't have to choose between them, but that's me.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1665
  • Respect: +4240
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 11:44:39 am »
+3

In practice no weak players make it to the finals of these things:

last f.DS champ: Me vs. Stef
Gokodom I: Me vs. DG
Gokodom II: WW vs SCSN
Gokodom III: jog vs AI

These tournaments do a fine job of identifying a strong champion.

And if "weaker" players make it to the quarterfinals or semifinals I consider that a feature not a bug, but even this is pretty rare. You can be confident with enough participants that anyone who advances far has put up a strong performance.

I find the tournaments with eliminations to be exciting, I really like the chance for upsets etc. But I agree that the league has a big advantage in ease of scheduling (which makes me prefer it right now).

On "not losing" vs "winning", this just seems like a mental issue in the same class as being overly upset at losses. There are a large number of players at a wide range of levels who are capable of playing a series of Dominion games with high skill, it's not shameful to lose and it's still an accomplishment to win. I understand the sentiment, but I would try not to let it ruin my enjoyment of a tournament.

Another One Day Cup would be awesome and I may organize one if it seems like there's interest (not sure when though).

PPE: Not all strong players prefer "dry" tournaments!
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4331
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 12:09:59 pm »
+1

I don't like you two trying to put the league down as boring and a knockout as exciting.

I don't consider beating up a level 15 player exciting at all.
And I don't consider a level 15 player beating me off a cultist chapel opening with my chapel missing the shuffle exciting either.
I don't even consider me making a comeback after my chapel opening missing the shuffle because my opponent completely misplays the endgame exciting.
I do consider the very close matches against high skilled opponents I get to play in the league exciting.

In the league, I get to lose a match and still win the tournament. It doesn't help my chances, but it's still possible. I think that's a great feature of the league given the very nature of Dominion.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1665
  • Respect: +4240
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 12:38:23 pm »
+4

Sorry, I don't mean to imply the league is boring (I only said "dry" and put it in quotes but maybe I needed a winky face as well).

But, there is an element of excitement for spectators and the weaker player when upsets happen. If you're the strong player it sucks, but it doesn't hurt to consider everyone else's perspective and realize that it does indeed make someone happy. There's an element of excitement when each match can result in elimination and it could be the last games each player sees in the tournament. The league doesn't have these things, some people like them. If you hate these things then the league is perfect.

I think you exaggerate and idealize the high level matches. I think high quality matches happen even at something like levels 50 vs mid 20s.

I really appreciate the league, think it's fantastic and am grateful for your initiative in setting it up and running it (and everyone else who helps).
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 12:41:37 pm »
+2

I'm not trying to put the league down, and I never said it was boring.

I also don't expect you to agree with me when I say that there are other exciting things in Dominion besides what you find exciting. I understand why you feel the way you do, but you didn't understand why anyone would feel any differently so I tried to explain it. It looks like you just took it personally.

If I didn't like the League, I wouldn't have participated in 6 seasons of it and I wouldn't be helping out with running it. I just like other things too, that's all.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2089
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 12:51:48 pm »
+1

Both formats have their merits and it would be nice to be able to have both, though I guess that puts a lot of stress on people who are in both to schedule 2 matches per week...

League is nice for allowing you to play a lot of matches against people of similar skill to you, so it's better for you as a player. But the allure of the tournament is that it's more interesting for people who aren't even in it. You get that bracket and try to predict winners and there's a sense of build-up. And if you're in it, you can see a more direct effect of other people's matches on you, so you have a greater investment in games that don't involve you. It's a completely different meta-experience so you trade off some quality of games for external interest. Obviously people weight these benefits differently, so I doubt anyone is going to convince anyone else that one format is objectively "better" than the other.

There should probably some sort of poll of the people in League to see if they want to pause for a tournament or not.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4331
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 01:13:12 pm »
0

I also don't expect you to agree with me when I say that there are other exciting things in Dominion besides what you find exciting. I understand why you feel the way you do, but you didn't understand why anyone would feel any differently so I tried to explain it. It looks like you just took it personally.
This is starting to confuse me - what exactly do I disagree with?
I do agree with the concept of other people having different ideas about exciting then I do.
I think I can understand their motives, but that doesn't make me agree with them. Not at all actually.
But as I said before - I'm totally willing to put it to a vote and go with the majority. Even if that involves pausing the league for 2 months.

There's an element of excitement when each match can result in elimination and it could be the last games each player sees in the tournament. The league doesn't have these things, some people like them. If you hate these things then the league is perfect.
I won't go so far as saying I hate them. I loved playing in those tournaments. But they also had disadvantages, and not being allowed to lose a match is the major one if you ask me.

I think you exaggerate and idealize the high level matches. I think high quality matches happen even at something like levels 50 vs mid 20s.
I don't think I exaggerated it. The only reason those games can get close is either a lot of bad luck on one side or a board where the dominating strategy involves only 2-3 kingdom cards and therefore is super default.
This is the kind of board that makes me love this game. There's just no way I get to play a close game on a board like that against a level 20 opponent. I don't mind playing a game Hunting Party-Baron in between, but mostly because they're quick anyway and who knows - maybe a gem like that one will show up on the next board.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10760
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11329
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 01:27:12 pm »
+5

Why should you pause the League? People can just drop out for one or two seasons if they want to play in the GokoDom but can't play in both GokoDom and the League. Other people might want to play in the League but not in the GokoDom, or both, and it would kind of suck for them if the League was paused.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 01:52:18 pm »
0

This is starting to confuse me - what exactly do I disagree with?

The things that we find exciting about playing/watching Dominion. In your list, this is the only one I disagreed with:

I don't even consider me making a comeback after my chapel opening missing the shuffle because my opponent completely misplays the endgame exciting.

Comebacks are exciting to me pretty much no matter what the circumstances, though it would be more exciting if it was because of a different or superior strategy.


As for pausing the League, well that was discussed here too, and the World Cup seems to be doing OK I guess. I probably shouldn't have brought it up again, there doesn't seem to be any harm in letting each person choose whether or not they want to do both.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

theright555J

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
  • Dragged into engines kicking and screaming!
  • Respect: +171
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2015, 02:54:56 pm »
+3

This strikes me as a bit of an American thing as opposed to a European thing...if you look at all of the major American sports, almost nobody who follows the sport seriously even cares if a team is highly skilled and wins the league title (regular season), but it's all about the playoffs. In fact, coaches/teams that consistently outperform during the regular season but lose to an upset in the playoffs are viewed as "chokers", yet scrappy upstarts that roar through the postseason (possibly getting really lucky) and win the championship are, well, the winners. Even Major League Baseball, with its very long and drawn out regular season, ultimately only cares about who wins the World Series. And the super-popular NFL, with a one-game-winner-takes-all playoff format, is wildly popular because of the excitement introduced by the variance.

One of the things I like about the Dominion League is that it's more European than what I'm typically used to in the States, and guarantees me 5 matches with much less pressure than a knockout tournament.  I would certainly participate in both formats if available.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 04:43:26 pm by theright555J »
Logged
Wondering what my name refers to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage_statistics

BraveBear

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
  • Respect: +97
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 10:41:24 am »
+2

Gokodom III was great for me!  It allowed me to face much better opponents then me (RTT,Qvist,yed).  There aren't many opportunities for a person who doesn't keep their rating up to play a high level opponents.  Gokodom allows this to happen which I think is a great thing.

I personally would love to see a Gokodom happen sooner then later. 
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4331
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2015, 12:22:17 pm »
+3

So... I thought about this a bit more and I think my initial response was a bit off.
I still think the league is just a better tournament but I don't like the idea that it might have destroyed something a lot of people enjoyed.
I know it isn't really true because Kirian just ran out of time, but it still might feel that way.

I don't like running a league season simultaneously with a gokodom tournament. Sure people could sign up for whatever they want, but if you organize gokodom maximum attendance is a very nice thing. Also I don't think the format of the league handles it very well if a lot of players leave for one season and return in the next.
So if it is going to happen, I would be in favor of pausing the league during the swiss of the gokodom (think the league could continue during the knockout because that involves only very few players).

I might organize a vote at some point but with more then two choices that's complicated and let's first find out where this discussion is going.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
  • Respect: +7122
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 01:50:13 pm »
+1

So if it is going to happen, I would be in favor of pausing the league during the swiss of the gokodom

I would like another Gokodom but if this were the consequence I would really really dislike it, as I enjoy League games much more than GD Swiss games (which, in turn, I enjoy a bit more than just regular games). It's like shutting down iso to replace it with Goko.

I understand that you neither want to see a ton of people leaving the League nor be responsible for a low attendance of GD, but why not first investigate whether this would be a (significant) issue at all? Because I honestly don't think it will be. We have the WC and League running concurrently at the moment, and there aren't many people who are not playing in one because of the other. The WC is of comparable size to last year's, and I don't think a lot of people who left the League did so only to sign up for the WC and would have stayed otherwise.

My suggestion would be to hold something akin to the following poll:

1. I'm in the League and its getting paused would not affect my decision to join GD.
2. I'm in the League but would leave it to play GD.
3. I'm in the League and would only play GD if it gets paused.
4. I'm not in the League; I just like voting.

Ideally I'd only count votes from active players (say, participating in at least the last 2 consecutive seasons or in 3 of the last 4), because people who are dropping in and out tend to do so anyway, so no need to cater to their whims.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2089
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 07:01:09 pm »
+2

^You're missing a couple (slightly less logical) options:

5. I'm in league but I will only play GD if the league is NOT paused.
6. I will quit league altogether if it is paused.
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
  • Respect: +7122
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 07:27:47 pm »
+1

^You're missing a couple (slightly less logical) options:

5. I'm in league but I will only play GD if the league is NOT paused.
6. I will quit league altogether if it is paused.

Heh, I like to hold back on the blackmail tactics until they are actually needed. You can't shoot the same bullet twice and shooting it too early only erodes goodwill ;)
Logged

Monsieur X

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
  • Respect: +86
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2015, 04:45:38 am »
+1

Why not a Gokodom 4, i liked the 3rd one. If i have time between league matches i would like to play it.

But just a question : Is the fds tournament dead? the last one was so long time ago (the only one i played)...
For me, its the mythical tournament and i feel that it will gradually disappear.

The tournament structure is nevertheless very exciting for both good players and less experienced players.
And that is the Big One!!!

 That's why I'm a little nostalgic that we organize a new gokodom, and would really prefer to play again this fds tournament!
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.157 seconds with 20 queries.