Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[A_S00]

Hey, guys.

I've been noticing recently (among a flurry of realizations of the variety "whoa, Hinterlands has some great cards for high-econ Gardens decks") that Hamlet pairs pretty well with Gardens (not particularly good example game).  Basically, in a garden game, you always have a ton of green to discard, you benefit a lot from +buy, and since Hamlet costs $2, it's a very easy third pile to empty.  This made me wonder how it would stack up against classics like Workshop, Woodcutter, and Ironworks in a gardening deck.

I tried to simulate the problem, but the play rules for Hamlet in Geronimoo's simulator don't work well with a Gardens strategy (if you have multiple Hamlets in your hand it will erroneously discard for +actions, it doesn't like to discard coppers for +buy even when doing so makes sense).  So, I'll try human expertise instead:  Has anybody tried this out?  How does it work in the long run?

To engage in some baseless theorycrafting, I'm guessing that Hamlets are better for buying up lots of estates and coppers later in a gardens game, and maybe better at ending a game early on piles (so good against someone who's not going gardens) because of being cheap, but not good at gobbling up the gardens early (since they don't really help you hit $4 on more turns, and don't let you gain cards without buying).  So, on a board with both Workshops and Hamlets, I imagine it's probably best to open with Workshops, and then maybe transition into Hamlets later in the game to pick up a ton of coppers...but I'm not sure when to start buying Estates instead.

Anyway, thought I'd share.

[Titandrake]

I'm pretty sure Hamlet by itself is not good enough for Gardens because of the reasons said in the post, but Hamlet + another enabler is. I tried doing Bureaucrat/Hamlet/Gardens, reasoning that the Silver would make losing money to Hamlet hurt less. It worked, but it was somewhat slow, I think slower than Smithy-BM. Although Bureaucrat isn't the best candidate for a Gardens helper.

In a Workshop game, you're ideally ending the game vary fast, so idk if there's time to transition into Hamlet.

EDIT: Here's the CouncilRoom log. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111221-221747-e917698b.html
Looking back, I noticed that I opened Bureaucrat/Hamlet (which appears to be worse than the Silver opening).

[Geronimoo]

Bureaucrat/Hamlet/Gardens easily beats Smithy/BM!

I played with this bot in the simulator:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Bureaucrat/Hamlet/Gardens"
 author="Geronimoo"
 description="Bureaucrat is a great Gardens enabler">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bureaucrat"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bureaucrat"/>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hamlet"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Just buy Bureaucrats and Hamlets and once you have about 4 Bureaucrats, start greening. The simulator will not always use Hamlet for +buy, so the strategy should completely crush most Province BM strategies.

With one small modification, this strategy also crushes Workshop/Gardens: start greening a lot earlier (2 Bureaucrats is enough).

[Fabian]

Does Bureucrat/Gardens crush Workshop/Gardens? Or, does Bureucrat/Hamlet/Gardens crush Workshop/Hamlet/Gardens? It seems either of these two questions would be a lot more interesting. Letting one player have access to Hamlet and the other player not have access to Hamlet seems like it wouldn't tell you much of importance.

[DG]

The problem with hamlet/gardens is that if you split the gardens with your opponent you've got nowhere to go. You might be able to flood your deck with copper and slowly buy out estates but that won't beat an opponent who can step up to duchies and provinces.

[Geronimoo]

I added some play rules for Hamlet in a Gardens strategy and an extremely simple Hamlet/Gardens strategy that first empties Hamlets, then Gardens and Estates will be on par with Smithy/BM... but if that Smithy player picks up a few Gardens too, the Hamlets are dead because the deck is unable to buy more expensive green cards.

And to answer Fabian's question: Bureaucrat/Gardens beats Workshop/Gardens with or without Hamlets for both strategies.

[yuma]

I had this same thought a few weeks ago--but with the addition of Coppersmith thinking that buying up lots of coppers with my Hamlet's +buys would help--and tried it out on my buddy in a series of games. I lost every time. Now I am not a premiere player so my strategy may be a bit off, but neither is he so I figure it balances out.

Here are the councilroom logs, feel free to critic if you like because I would like this strategy to work.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111206-071809-05fef741.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111207-151233-ad102295.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111207-151651-6354e10a.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111206-070354-a4bcfd23.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111206-071159-896c8d44.html

[Epoch]

Does Bureucrat/Gardens crush Workshop/Gardens? Or, does Bureucrat/Hamlet/Gardens crush Workshop/Hamlet/Gardens?

I think that the more on-point question is whether Bureaucrat/Hamlet/Gardens beats Bureaucrat/Gardens.

[Voltgloss]

And to answer Fabian's question: Bureaucrat/Gardens beats Workshop/Gardens with or without Hamlets for both strategies.

This is fascinating.  Does Bureaucrat/Gardens also beat Smithy/BM (without Hamlets around)?  Or do we have a rock-paper-scissors situation in the base set (Bureaucrat/Gardens beats Workshop/Gardens which beats Smithy/BM which beats Bureaucrat/Gardens)? 

Also wondering how Thief/Gardens fares against both Bureaucrat/Gardens and Workshop/Gardens.

[Empathy]

I would expect thief/gardens to lose to the other garden strategies in 2p, win in 4p. I venture no guess on 3p.

[Geronimoo]

I could be clicking "Quick Simulation" until my finger fell off  , so why not try it yourself? You could start from the Bureaucrat bot I posted below.
And if you're unsure of the design, post your bots and I'll make suggestions.

[jonts26]

Give a man simulation results and you'll feed his curiosity for a day. Teach a man to simulate and he'll stop bugging you with requests.

[theory]

Make a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

[Voltgloss]

I could be clicking "Quick Simulation" until my finger fell off  , so why not try it yourself? You could start from the Bureaucrat bot I posted below.
And if you're unsure of the design, post your bots and I'll make suggestions.

My apologies.  I saw other people asking whether a certain strategy beats another strategy; as they were getting answers, I didn't expect there to be a problem with my asking the same.  Was I, unwittingly, the straw that broke the camel's back?

As suggested, from here on I'll try simulating myself rather than ask in the forums. 

Give a man simulation results and you'll feed his curiosity for a day. Teach a man to simulate and he'll stop bugging you with requests.

This was the first time I'd ever made such a request, so I'm not sure why that would be considered "bugging [Geronimoo] with requests."

[theory]

I think jonts26 was making a general rhetorical point rather than singling you out.

[jonts26]

I think jonts26 was making a general rhetorical point rather than singling you out.

This is true. Sorry if anyone felt I was speaking to them directly.

[greatexpectations]

i feel like some of those questions have been asked before. (not using that to criticize, just as a jumping off point)

could we all chip in and put together a google doc or something with a bunch of the real common simulation baselines as a reference? (or is there already something like that out there?) list some basic strategies, how many turns on average for 4 provinces, how it compares against bm / smithy +bm, etc. or in this case, turns / expected points for garden rushes.

could be handy as a reference for the regulars here, and it could be a good learning tool for the newer folk.

[WanderingWinder]

i feel like some of those questions have been asked before. (not using that to criticize, just as a jumping off point)

could we all chip in and put together a google doc or something with a bunch of the real common simulation baselines as a reference? (or is there already something like that out there?) list some basic strategies, how many turns on average for 4 provinces, how it compares against bm / smithy +bm, etc. or in this case, turns / expected points for garden rushes.

could be handy as a reference for the regulars here, and it could be a good learning tool for the newer folk.

Well, I've started trying to do that with my "Project: Optimizing Big Money/X" thread in the simulation forum. It doesn't have all the major cards done yet. But the results are getting updated periodically to be the basic single-card strategies in Geronimoo's sim, so if you want to see how something or another does against BM/Smithy or something, just punch them up in the simulator, and you'll see.

Here's the best Bureaucrat/Gardens deck the past hour's work has made me:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Bureaucrat/Gardens" author="WanderingWinder" description="The optimized Bureaucrat/Gardens strategy that buys no other actions.">
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Attacking"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="23.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countEmptyPiles"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countEmptyPiles"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Bureaucrat">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bureaucrat"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bureaucrat">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bureaucrat"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="23.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="17.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="20.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Oh, also, Hamlet/Gardens with absolutely no other help is just a huge flop if your opponent is paying attention. However, Hamlet can supplement another gardens strategy really really nicely. (Heck, Hamlet/Counting House/Gardens is a lot of fun and not that bad)

[yuma]

Oh, also, Hamlet/Gardens with absolutely no other help is just a huge flop if your opponent is paying attention. However, Hamlet can supplement another gardens strategy really really nicely. (Heck, Hamlet/Counting House/Gardens is a lot of fun and not that bad)

I posted above some of my games I had tried with Counting house, hamlet and gardens and lost 5 straight games using that strategy. If you have time and inclination, how is my strategy not working compared to yours that does?  Or in other words, how do you think I am incorrectly using these cards?

[WanderingWinder]

Oh, also, Hamlet/Gardens with absolutely no other help is just a huge flop if your opponent is paying attention. However, Hamlet can supplement another gardens strategy really really nicely. (Heck, Hamlet/Counting House/Gardens is a lot of fun and not that bad)

I posted above some of my games I had tried with Counting house, hamlet and gardens and lost 5 straight games using that strategy. If you have time and inclination, how is my strategy not working compared to yours that does?  Or in other words, how do you think I am incorrectly using these cards?

No, those were coppersmith. Coppersmith is a LOT worse for this.

[yuma]

Oh, also, Hamlet/Gardens with absolutely no other help is just a huge flop if your opponent is paying attention. However, Hamlet can supplement another gardens strategy really really nicely. (Heck, Hamlet/Counting House/Gardens is a lot of fun and not that bad)

I posted above some of my games I had tried with Counting house, hamlet and gardens and lost 5 straight games using that strategy. If you have time and inclination, how is my strategy not working compared to yours that does?  Or in other words, how do you think I am incorrectly using these cards?

No, those were coppersmith. Coppersmith is a LOT worse for this.

Well that explains it. On one hand I feel relieved that I wasn't using a good strategy improperly, but on the other I feel stupid for confusing the two. Add that to the confusing card list along with Baron and Bishop for me. I will have to try this Counting House strategy one of these days.

[Kirian]

Make a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

[Titandrake]

Make a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

[^_^_^_^]

Make a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

beartatoteachamantofish img

Lol!