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Author Topic: Highest number of forced decisions in a row  (Read 12997 times)

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Simon (DK)

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Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« on: January 31, 2015, 09:20:43 pm »
+2

What is the highest number of forced decisions you can have in a row in a single turn in a 2-player game?

Possession doesn't count.

I define a forced decision as a situation, where you're following the text on a card, and the text gives you a choice, but in the situation you only have 1 possibility.
For example a Golem hitting only one action card is a forced decision, because normally you have to choose which card to play first, but right now there is only one possibility.
A Golem hitting 2 similar action cards is not a forced decision, because you still have to choose which action card to play first even though it doesn't matter.

In a row is defined as not having any non-forced decisions between the forced decisions.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 10:49:13 pm by Simon (DK) »
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DG

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 10:10:03 pm »
0

You can get at least 10 by having all the processions in play and having only one choice of action card to gain for each procession from the supply. If you had two quarries and a highway in play when you trashed your processions then perhaps you would be forced to gain border villages with only one choice of cheaper card (copper) in the supply.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 10:15:53 pm by DG »
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liopoil

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 10:16:21 pm »
0

Opponent possessing you doesn't count, right?

Throne room chain of 10 with 10 rogues in hand and 20 silvers in the trash for 30 forced actions.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 10:39:38 pm »
0

I've modified the puzzle with a better definition and to only allow for 1 turn (so Possession shouldn't matter now).
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 10:40:50 pm »
0

Throne room chain of 10 with 10 rogues in hand and 20 silvers in the trash for 30 forced actions.

For each of the 9 first Throne Rooms you have the choice of which Rogue to play, so this doesn't work.
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liopoil

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 10:43:47 pm »
0

I've modified the puzzle with a better definition and to only allow for 1 turn (so Possession shouldn't matter now).
No; normally you would get to choose what to do, but when possessed you have no choice. Does choosing which rogue really count? For procession, can you choose which of the 10 markets to gain first?
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 10:48:42 pm »
0

You can get at least 10 by having all the processions in play and having only one choice of action card to gain for each procession from the supply. If you had two quarries and a highway in play when you trashed your processions then perhaps you would be forced to gain border villages with only one choice of cheaper card (copper) in the supply.

Going out from this idea and adding another idea I had myself, I can think of a solution with 43 forced decisions in a row.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 10:53:59 pm »
0

I've modified the puzzle with a better definition and to only allow for 1 turn (so Possession shouldn't matter now).
No; normally you would get to choose what to do, but when possessed you have no choice. Does choosing which rogue really count? For procession, can you choose which of the 10 markets to gain first?

You're right. I've added a rule that Possession doesn't count.
Choosing which Rogue does count. The result of the choices will be exactly the same, but you still have to choose which of the Rogues to play.
I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in the rules that you have to gain the top card when gaining from a supply pile.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 10:55:21 pm by Simon (DK) »
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TheOthin

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 10:59:19 pm »
0

You can't choose from 10 Markets because only one is on the top of the pile. However, you can choose between Rogues in your hand or between Silvers in the trash, because they're all equally available.

The Border Village thing would require the Supply to be emptied of other Actions, but that shouldn't be an issue. On that note, Haggler could have a similar impact but isn't compatible with Procession.
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enfynet

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 12:09:09 am »
+1

Wouldn't a Herald chain be included in this?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2015, 12:12:14 am »
0

So from your definition of "forced decision", does every time I gain a card without Watchtower or Trader in my hand count as a forced decision?  Normally I would have the option to reveal Watchtower/Trader, but since it's not in my hand, I'm forced to not do so.

You can probably do crazy tricks based on that idea, but I'm not sure how.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 12:38:43 am »
0

I think that is a bit of a stretch.  If you have Trader in hand, you have a choice to reveal it or not, but if you don't have one, you don't have that choice. I don't think it is possible to be forced to reveal or not, so I don't think that is a thing.

You can do the throne chain with 10 Thrones and a Smithy (or other draw card) in your hand, with each double Smithy drawing exactly one Smithy and 5 non-actions.  That gets you 10 forced decisions.  Make the last one a Rouge with one gain-able card in the trash and you get 11. Add a Kings Court to the start of your Throne chain to play the first one 3 times, and that should add 2 more to your draw chain, to reach 13.  There could be a different concept that gets you further.

Hagglers probably don't work because you can be forced to gain 10 cards if it is the only Haggle-able card, but I don't think you can get more, because you can't be forced to gain Border Village and have any valid targets for its gain at the same time.

I just noticed DG's Procession Idea can probably force 10 Border Village gains that are forced to gain Copper, so that should make 20, which is better than the thrones unless there is an action that has a choice that can be forced, and also draws a card to double the Throne Room chain I proposed.

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2015, 01:39:02 am »
0

I think that is a bit of a stretch.  If you have Trader in hand, you have a choice to reveal it or not, but if you don't have one, you don't have that choice. I don't think it is possible to be forced to reveal or not, so I don't think that is a thing.

Right, but the whole puzzle is talking about situations where you don't have choices you normally have.  The game pauses for a second to make sure you're not revealing a Watchtower, but since you don't have one, you're forced to choose not to reveal one.  It's a choice you can make by default, but you're denied the opportunity because of the particular situation you're in.

Anyway I think Reactions are actually precluded because the puzzle statement actually mentions only situations in which you're following the text on a card and it offers you a choice.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2015, 01:53:32 am »
0

The chain of one King's Court followed by 10 Throne Rooms gives 12 potentially forced choice doubled actions.  If you start with a single Ironworks in hand, and only one card that costs less than 4 left on the board that is a victory card, you can get into the following loop:
(Disclaimer: I assume this board state is possible, but don't actually know)

(6 player game with all Hovels, and Necroplii Masqueraded to the active player)

Throne Ironworks
Ironworks the victory card, draw a Hovel
Ironworks the victory card, draw an Apprentice
Throne Apprentice
Trash Hovel Drawing Necropolis
Trash Necropolis Drawing Ironworks

These 6 forced actions are repeated 6 times for a total of 36

The last Necro can be a Squire, forcing you to gain a Goons, for 37 forced actions.

There are some more tricks I found that aren't quite worked out yet, so the max is definitely higher.



Edit: I think I've gotten to 70. Might be able to eek out a couple more from that sequence, but I've got to go to bed now.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 02:19:05 am by Deadlock39 »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2015, 04:50:17 am »
+1

Wouldn't a Herald chain be included in this?

I don't see how a Herald chain would be included. Herald doesn't give you a choice.

I think that is a bit of a stretch.  If you have Trader in hand, you have a choice to reveal it or not, but if you don't have one, you don't have that choice. I don't think it is possible to be forced to reveal or not, so I don't think that is a thing.

Right, but the whole puzzle is talking about situations where you don't have choices you normally have.  The game pauses for a second to make sure you're not revealing a Watchtower, but since you don't have one, you're forced to choose not to reveal one.  It's a choice you can make by default, but you're denied the opportunity because of the particular situation you're in.

Anyway I think Reactions are actually precluded because the puzzle statement actually mentions only situations in which you're following the text on a card and it offers you a choice.

This is one of the reasons I changed the definition to following a text on a card that gives you a choice. If you don't have a reaction card in your hand, then you aren't following a text on a card that gives you a choice.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2015, 04:52:16 am »
0

The chain of one King's Court followed by 10 Throne Rooms gives 12 potentially forced choice doubled actions.  If you start with a single Ironworks in hand, and only one card that costs less than 4 left on the board that is a victory card, you can get into the following loop:
(Disclaimer: I assume this board state is possible, but don't actually know)

(6 player game with all Hovels, and Necroplii Masqueraded to the active player)

Throne Ironworks
Ironworks the victory card, draw a Hovel
Ironworks the victory card, draw an Apprentice
Throne Apprentice
Trash Hovel Drawing Necropolis
Trash Necropolis Drawing Ironworks

These 6 forced actions are repeated 6 times for a total of 36

The last Necro can be a Squire, forcing you to gain a Goons, for 37 forced actions.

There are some more tricks I found that aren't quite worked out yet, so the max is definitely higher.



Edit: I think I've gotten to 70. Might be able to eek out a couple more from that sequence, but I've got to go to bed now.

It's a 2 player game, so Ironworks can only gain the Victory card 8 times.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2015, 11:14:28 am »
0

Bah, I didn't see the 2 player stipulation. 

I realized last night I missed the option of leaving one Throne Room in the supply and grabbing 10 Band of Misfits, so that should improve the solution. 

I don't think I used many cards that require more than 2 players in the ~70 solution I was working on last night, so it should be higher than 70 with them added in.

Sometime later tonight I might have time to get that one Ironed out.

TheOthin

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2015, 12:02:14 pm »
0

With Ambassador, you could get a considerable number of Estates in the Supply by not using Shelters. And if you need to trash $1 cards, you could use substitutes. Poor House won't work because it'd come up as an option to Throne in place of Apprentice, but cost-reduced Silvers should be fine.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2015, 03:30:04 pm »
+4

I think the shelters are more productive than the large pile of Estates.  I was only getting 3 forced decisions per Throne out of those, and as best I can tell, you can do equal or better with some options enabled by Shelters.

Edit
No mistakes now (I hope)
/Edit

Can you squeeze any more in here???

98 forced decisions in a row

Kingdom (with Shelters)
1: Moat (bane)
2: Upgrade
3: Throne Room
4: King's Court
5: Goons
6: Rats
7: Wharf
8: Squire
9: Band of Misfits
10: Catacombs
11: Black Market (Native Village, Masquerade, Young Witch, Apprentice, Stonemason)

Masquerade to an extra Overgrown Estate to the main player, Native Village with perfect shuffle luck to set up the turn.  Young Witch gets us another supply pile.

Play a chain of King's courts and various gainers (Workshop, Feast, ect) to get the kingdom into this state:
All piles empty except Wharfs at 10, Golds at 10 (or more), Goons at 10, Throne Rooms at 1, Coppers at 4, Moats at 10

The last Kings Court Starts a chain of 9 Throne Rooms, followed by 10 Band of Misfits as Throne Room.
When the 10th Band of Misfits is selected as Throne Room, your hand contains the Apprentice from the Black Market and a Hovel.

Begin Forced Decisions

(BoM #10 first play) [4]
Forced to Throne Apprentice
Forced to trash Hovel (draw Squire #1)
Forced to trash Squire #1 (draw Stonemason #1 and Overgrown Estate #1)
Forced to gain Goons #1

(BoM #10 second play) [+7=11]
Forced to Throne Stonemason
Forced to Trash Overgrown Estate #1 (draw Overgrown Estate #2)
Forced to gain Copper #1
Forced to gain Copper #2
Forced to Trash Overgrown Estate #2 (draw Rats #1)
Forced to gain Copper #3
Forced to gain Copper #4 (Copper pile empty now)

(BoM #9-2) [+3*8=35]
Forced to Throne Rats#1-8 (draw Squire #2-9)
Forced to trash Squire #2-9
Forced to gain Goons #2-9 (play Rats #1-8 again drawing Rats #2-9)

(BoM #1) [+3=38]
Forced to Throne Rats#9 (draw Squire #10)
Forced to trash Squire #10
Forced to gain Goons #10 (play Rats #9 again drawing Upgrade #1)

(Throne #9) [+5=43]
Forced to Throne Upgrade #1 (draw a Black Market)
Forced to trash Black Market
Forced to gain Throne Room #10 (play Upgrade again, drawing Rats #10) (The only card costing 4 or less in the supply now is Moat)
Forced to trash Rats #10 (draw Upgrade #2)
Forced to gain Wharf #1

(Throne #8-1) [+6*8=91]
Forced to Throne Upgrade #2-9 (draw Catacombs #1-8)
Forced to trash Catacombs #1-8
Forced to gain Moat #1-8
Forced to gain Gold #1-8 (play Upgrade #2-9 again drawing Rats #11-18)
Forced to trash Rats #11-18 (draw Upgrade #3-10)
Forced to gain Wharf #2-9

(Third King's Court play of Throne #1) [+7=98]
Forced to Throne Upgrade #10 (draw Catacombs #9)
Forced to trash Catacombs #9
Forced to gain Moat #9
Forced to gain Gold #9 (play Upgrade #10 again drawing Catacombs #10)
Forced to trash Catacombs #10
Forced to gain Moat #10
Forced to gain Gold #10
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 12:09:39 am by Deadlock39 »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 10:26:11 am »
0

I assumed not, but if revealing a hand of all Rats counts as a forced decision, then there are 8 more that I didn't count.

I really wanted to use Scout in Moat's slot but realized it would conflict with the forced upgrade to drain the Throne Room pile.  Scout again proves its uselessness.

This makes me really wish you could set the game state on Goko just to watch this whole thing play out.

Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2015, 08:03:07 pm »
0

I assumed not, but if revealing a hand of all Rats counts as a forced decision, then there are 8 more that I didn't count.

Revealing the hand isn't a decision. It's something you have to do if you don't trash a card. Rats doesn't give you a choice.

This makes me really wish you could set the game state on Goko just to watch this whole thing play out.

That would be awesome.
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liopoil

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2015, 08:08:11 pm »
0

I assumed not, but if revealing a hand of all Rats counts as a forced decision, then there are 8 more that I didn't count.

Revealing the hand isn't a decision. It's something you have to do if you don't trash a card. Rats doesn't give you a choice.

This makes me really wish you could set the game state on Goko just to watch this whole thing play out.

That would be awesome.
It would still make you click though.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2015, 10:30:50 pm »
0

Oh yeah, I guess the trashing you still have to click the card.  It wouldn't all play out automatically like I envisioned.


I realized there might some more improvement to be had here.  My original solution gained the Squires off of Catacombs trashing, but did not work because Goons and Gold conflicted at the $6 cost.  I was thinking about how it would have worked if there was a $7 attack and then realized that Familiar could fill the Attack slot without being gain-able in any other way.  It frees up the Kingdom slot that Moat is occupying, and could possibly allow the Apprentices to be gained instead of Wharfs to free up another slot, but it needs some sort of loop that does better than 3 forced actions to replace the Rats trashing Squire section.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 10:39:38 pm by Deadlock39 »
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ephesos

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2015, 11:32:43 pm »
0

Do you count forced decisions made by either player? If so, it might be possible to get higher with attacks that have forced decisions: Rabble flips 2/3 treasures/actions, Rogue/Knight flips 2 cards, but only one is 3-6, Saboteur hits a 3 cost card w/ no Curses left. I'm not quite sure about Young Witch: in the vein of forced choice, you may reveal the Bane, but you can't, so you have to choose not to. But you could make the same argument for things like Moat and Watchtower: I could have revealed them, if I had them in my hand. Young Witch does specify the choice on the Attack card though, so I think that makes the difference.

Solution attempt:
KC/TR/BoM for 21 TR plays on stack, Rabble only action in hand.
9 times: TR Rabble, drawing 5 non-actions and Rabble, revealing all treasures/actions
TR Rabble, drawing 5 non-actions and Herald, revealing all treasures/actions
5 times: TR Herald, drawing a non-action and another Herald, revealing and playing 2 Saboteurs, hitting two Silvers with no Curses/Poor House in supply
3 times: TR Herald, drawing a non-action and another Herald, revealing and playing 2 Rogues, hitting only one 3-5 cost, and then forced to choose it to gain
TR Herald, drawing a non-action and Sir Destry, revealing and playing 2 Rogues, hitting only one 3-5 cost, and then forced to choose it to gain
TR Sir Destry, drawing 3 non-actions and Sir Martin, hitting only one 3-5 cost twice
TR Sir Martin, hitting only one 3-5 cost twice

21 TR choices + 20 Rabble choices + 10 Saboteur choices + 8 Rogue choices + 2 Sir Destry choices + 2 Sir Martin choices = 63 forced choices in a row. Probably can be improved to somehow include the other solutions without attacks, or used to improve them.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Highest number of forced decisions in a row
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2015, 08:49:32 am »
0

For improvement for both of you it might be an idea to look into this suggestion:

You can get at least 10 by having all the processions in play and having only one choice of action card to gain for each procession from the supply. If you had two quarries and a highway in play when you trashed your processions then perhaps you would be forced to gain border villages with only one choice of cheaper card (copper) in the supply.

possibly without the cost reduction. But starting with a chain of Processions, where the last one plays Herald hitting the King's Court that starts the Throne Room chain. So when you're finished with the Throne Room chain, you're trashing 9 Processions and Herald and have to gain action cards costing exactly 1$ more.

@Deadlock39 you can maybe look into if it's possible to gain the rest of the Kingdom purely with cards from the Black Market deck to free up the King's Court spot in the kingdom.

I think I want to split the puzzle up in 2: One where we only count choices for the player whos turn it is, and one where we count for both players.
If we count for both players, then Young Witch with no bane in hand counts, because the text on Young Witch specifically gives the other player the choice of revealing the bane.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 09:00:51 am by Simon (DK) »
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