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Author Topic: Most money in your deck on your first turn  (Read 5785 times)

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GendoIkari

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Most money in your deck on your first turn
« on: December 21, 2011, 11:52:55 am »
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So what's the most amount of money you can get into your deck by the time you start your first turn? Allow any number of players. I think I have the answer.

Similarly, what is the largest deck you can have by the time you start your first turn?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 12:06:08 pm by GendoIkari »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 12:00:47 pm »
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In a 66-player game, I get 36: 45 players buy IGG, 10 buy noble brigand, and 10 buy embassy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 12:05:15 pm »
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In a 66-player game, I get 36: 45 players buy IGG, 10 buy noble brigand, and 10 buy embassy.
I didn't think at all of IGG. I guess this means that the 2 questions do have 2 separate answers. Anyway, 45 players can't buy IGG, there are only 10 of them. :) Also, what are the rules for how many curses are available? Is it number of players minus 1 times 10?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 12:06:40 pm »
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I think Curses are limited to 30 in an N-player game where N > 3.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 12:11:52 pm »
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I think Curses are limited to 30 in an N-player game where N > 3.

I know that for 2, 3, and 4 player, Curses are (n - 1) * 10. Just not sure about more players. There are official rules for 5 and 6 players, at least. My guess is that it would continue as (n - 1) * 10. Donald said once that the curses were numbered that way so that in normal situations, the number of curses left in the supply should be so that if an attack card is played, all opponents could gain a curse, instead of having only 1 curse left with 3 opponents, or something.

*Edit* I just checked the official rules for Intrigue, indeed it is 40 curses for 5 player, and 50 for 6. I definitely would say for the purposes of any puzzle with more than 6 players, continue to add 10 for each player. This means that you will be able to gain a curse for each IGG bought.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 12:14:02 pm by GendoIkari »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 12:30:55 pm »
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Heh. Turns out I don't know everything afterall.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 12:39:00 pm »
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In a 66-player game, I get 36: 45 players buy IGG, 10 buy noble brigand, and 10 buy embassy.
I didn't think at all of IGG. I guess this means that the 2 questions do have 2 separate answers. Anyway, 45 players can't buy IGG, there are only 10 of them. :) Also, what are the rules for how many curses are available? Is it number of players minus 1 times 10?
Haha, oops. I was thinking curses increase with players, so you can get a ton. But yeah, 10 is the most :P. I guess $23 is the most money (with 36 cards), since only 2 noble brigands can work per shuffle, for 6 total.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 12:41:13 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 12:41:39 pm »
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In a 66-player game, I get 36: 45 players buy IGG, 10 buy noble brigand, and 10 buy embassy.
I didn't think at all of IGG. I guess this means that the 2 questions do have 2 separate answers. Anyway, 45 players can't buy IGG, there are only 10 of them. :) Also, what are the rules for how many curses are available? Is it number of players minus 1 times 10?
Haha, oops. I was thinking curses increase with players, so you can get a ton. But yeah, 10 is the most :P. I guess $23 is the most, since only 2 noble brigands can work per shuffle, for 6 total.
Hmm, I got a bit higher than that. Embassy Silver alone should give you $20, and 10 cards. Unless there's something I didn't think about with Silvers running out before you get 10 of them...

*Edit*
Actually, I'm guessing that you just accidentally calculated Silver at $1 instead of $2. If that's the case, then you meant to say $33, with 36 cards. If that's the case, then you are close, but I managed to get slightly higher. What are you thinking will be hit each time NB is bought? 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 01:25:59 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2011, 05:21:12 pm »
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Base and Intrigue combined have a total of 80 Silvers. So in an 11-player game where all 10 other players buy Embassy, you only get 8 Silvers before they run out. Obviously this number gets less the more players there are. You also get 8 in a 10-player (the 81st Silver would be your 9th) and 9-player game. So we'll make one player open Noble Brigand to give you a Copper.

So I think the answer to most money is $24 (7 + 1 + 8 * 2).

For most cards, you can get 10 Curses from IGG. I think every second Noble Brigand can give you a Copper, so that's 5 more. edit: Forgot about the Curses in your deck! I think you only have to hit the two Coppers twice. So that's 8 more Coppers. If we then have 3 players buying Embassies, that gives us a total of 24 players, so each Embassy gives out 23 Silvers for a total of 69 (ie you get all three). This works better than if you have less NBs and more Embassies.

So I think the answer to most cards is 28 31 (7 Coppers, 3 Estates, 10 Curses, 5 8 more Coppers and 3 Silvers).

Edit: make it 7 Coppers from NB not 8. I forgot to consider the extra one that goes in before you shuffle.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:15:59 am by Jimmmmm »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2011, 05:37:16 pm »
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Base and Intrigue combined have a total of 80 Silvers. So in an 11-player game where all 10 other players buy Embassy, you only get 8 Silvers before they run out. Obviously this number gets less the more players there are. You also get 8 in a 10-player (the 81st Silver would be your 9th) and 9-player game. So we'll make one player open Noble Brigand to give you a Copper.

So I think the answer to most money is $24 (7 + 1 + 8 * 2).

For most cards, you can get 10 Curses from IGG. I think every second Noble Brigand can give you a Copper, so that's 5 more. If we then have 3 players buying Embassies, that gives us a total of 24 players, so each Embassy gives out 23 Silvers for a total of 69 (ie you get all three). This works better than if you have less NBs and more Embassies.

So I think the answer to most cards is 28 (7 Coppers, 3 Estates, 10 Curses, 5 more Coppers and 3 Silvers).


Yeah, I definitely wasn't thinking of limited amount of Silver in the supply. With that restriction, I couldn't say if I have a better answer than yours. Without that restriction, I have $34, and 37 cards. 10 Silvers, 10 Curses, and I arranged it so that 8 Nobel Brigand buys gives you an extra 7 copper, and 2 more NB buys would be pointless. That requires 29 total players though.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2011, 06:31:46 pm »
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For some reason I was thinking that noble brigand drew 5 cards or something making it harder to avoid copper... I think you can actually get 9 coppers off NB, so assuming unlimited silver, it's $36 and 39 cards. Say you have 5 coppers in hand, then there are only 2 in the draw deck, along with 13 other cards (estates and curses). So assuming the coppers show up together, you get 6/7 before reshuffling. Then, if you shuffle the coppers to the bottom, you can gain coppers for the next 3 as well.

I also don't think unlimited silver is unreasonable, since base+intrigue supports only 6 players according to the rule book. So presumably you have to add more sets, including more silver to play with more people.

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dondon151

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 08:10:57 pm »
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For some reason I was thinking that noble brigand drew 5 cards or something making it harder to avoid copper... I think you can actually get 9 coppers off NB, so assuming unlimited silver, it's $36 and 39 cards. Say you have 5 coppers in hand, then there are only 2 in the draw deck, along with 13 other cards (estates and curses). So assuming the coppers show up together, you get 6/7 before reshuffling. Then, if you shuffle the coppers to the bottom, you can gain coppers for the next 3 as well.

You gain Curses to the discard pile, though. Let's say that the first 10 players all buy out the IGGs. That leaves 3 Estates, 2 Coppers in your draw deck and 10 Curses in your discard. Player 11 plays an NB and reveals both Copper. Player 12 plays an NB and reveals 2 Estates, giving you a Copper. Player 13 plays an NB, reveals an Estate, then triggers a reshuffle. You shuffle and leave the 3 Copper on bottom, with 10 Curses and 2 Estates on top. You then reveal another Estate, and get another Copper. After that, there are only 11 more non-Treasure cards left in the draw deck, so you can only gain 5 more Coppers. Thus 7 Coppers from 8 buys of NB. The 9th and 10th buys are guaranteed to hit at least 1 of your remaining 3 Coppers.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 09:09:30 am »
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For some reason I was thinking that noble brigand drew 5 cards or something making it harder to avoid copper... I think you can actually get 9 coppers off NB, so assuming unlimited silver, it's $36 and 39 cards. Say you have 5 coppers in hand, then there are only 2 in the draw deck, along with 13 other cards (estates and curses). So assuming the coppers show up together, you get 6/7 before reshuffling. Then, if you shuffle the coppers to the bottom, you can gain coppers for the next 3 as well.

You gain Curses to the discard pile, though. Let's say that the first 10 players all buy out the IGGs. That leaves 3 Estates, 2 Coppers in your draw deck and 10 Curses in your discard. Player 11 plays an NB and reveals both Copper. Player 12 plays an NB and reveals 2 Estates, giving you a Copper. Player 13 plays an NB, reveals an Estate, then triggers a reshuffle. You shuffle and leave the 3 Copper on bottom, with 10 Curses and 2 Estates on top. You then reveal another Estate, and get another Copper. After that, there are only 11 more non-Treasure cards left in the draw deck, so you can only gain 5 more Coppers. Thus 7 Coppers from 8 buys of NB. The 9th and 10th buys are guaranteed to hit at least 1 of your remaining 3 Coppers.

That's exactly what I had at first, except with Silvers from the Embassy instead of Curses from IGG. So you could have 10 Curses and 10 Silver before the shuffle! With that, only one Nobel Brigand has to miss; 9 can give copper. So, with unlimited Silver, HiveMind is exactly correct, $36 and 39 cards. Better than my original solution. Congrats!
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jotheonah

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 09:43:42 am »
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BUt if NB hits a Silver it takes it away...
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Deadlock39

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 10:52:09 am »
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It also does not give out a Copper.  You can't accomplish either of the objectives by hitting Silvers with NB.

GendoIkari

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 12:08:44 pm »
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It also does not give out a Copper.  You can't accomplish either of the objectives by hitting Silvers with NB.

D'OH!!! :-[ I can't believe I did that. Ok, so I had the correct total answer from the get-go then; I just got there by an illegal method. Replace Silvers with Curses in my original thinking, and all is good.
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theorel

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Re: Most money in your deck on your first turn
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2011, 05:30:44 pm »
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Never-mind I missed the comment about the extra copper...of course.

No, you can hit $35, I'm pretty sure:
X=curse
EE CC E-reshuffle-E -> 2 coppers (3xNB)
in deck: XXXXXXXXXX, CC, E (and this is the wrong point...should be CCC, which is one too many coppers. bah! :) )
so, we get: XX x5 -> 5 coppers (5x NB)
now NB#9 hits CC->nothing
and NB#10 hits E-reshuffle-E ->copper
that's 8 NB hits...so 8  coppers + 7 coppers, + 10 silvers = $35.

(assuming unlimited Silver, or scaling Silver to # players.)

« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:37:44 pm by theorel »
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