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Author Topic: Infinite stalemate game  (Read 5005 times)

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liopoil

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Re: Infinite stalemate game
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2015, 01:00:23 pm »
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What about some torturer pin where the village pile is out and there are no more cantrips... adding more cards would make the pin too liable to stall, so the pin player waits for his single trade route to clean up his junk. The curse pile is full and the pin player is playing a zillion torturers a turn against wharf big money or something. Other details can be added as necessary.
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jomini

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Re: Infinite stalemate game
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2015, 04:17:37 pm »
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I thought about a different version of this puzzle: A finite stalemate game.

Can anyone think of a situation where it is optimal for both players to not gain anything for n turns, then gain something the (n+1)st turn? I'm thinking pin game, but I think the pinned player wants to buy stuff there to help drain piles...

Do we count coin tokens as "anything"? How about VP tokens? Or Masq as "gaining"?

For instance Tr/Kc(from Bm deck)/Monument x2 gains 6 VP a turn. An opponent with 10 villages/Fortress(from Bm deck)/Bish x4 will gain 12 VP a turn once they are setup. If the opponent has enough clutter (e.g. curses and the like) and enough of a VP lead that the Monument player is then best setup to milk 6VP a turn while the Bish player hits 3 or fewer and then pile out when they are ahead before the Bish player again overtakes them.

The Bish player should buy to 3 pile IFF they can end the game before Monuments overtake their starting lead or once they have re-overtaken the Monument player.

So something like a 5:20 starting VP balance, but P2 can only average 1 Bish per turn. After 3 turns we'd expect something like 23:23. This would go to 29:24 until the Bish player can start hitting double and triple Bish plays. Eventually Bish will be hitting 12 per turn so Monument wants to end the game before that is decisive. You can even do this with just Bish or monument. P1 has to start with more points than P2, but earn fewer per turn for some period of n turns, but have deck acceleration so he eventually earns more points than P2.



Another option would be something like reliable-ish, but fragile engines for both players with 5 Bakers/5 Candlestick makers for each player. Optimal play might be for each player to hoard their coins until they can purchase a game winning amount of green (which then nerfs their engine). Optimal play for both would be to hope the other guy whiffs rather than starting buying and piling later.

Another option is waiting for an opponent to whiff on drawing a key reaction card like Moat. For instance, say we both have engines that run on Kc -> Kc -> Moat and both have two cursers. If you buy green, it lowers the odds that you will have a Moat in hand. When you don't have Moat in hand, you likely gain 6 curses (breaking your engine). Optimal play might then be to wait & hope that the other guy misses one of his 5 Moats before you do. Eventually one guy whiffs and he gets 6 Curses and then 4 more in a few more turns. At that point the lucky player can safely buy green without having his deck break.

You each have 1 copper in deck (you both trashed the rest with Mint), Tr, and Pirate ship (both have zero tokens). You can now buy nothing but coppers & curses. However, if you buy coppers you greatly increase the odds that the other guy will hit on Pirate ship (making it worth $1) and allowing him to buy good cards.

There are likely many other variants where your best bet is to play your deck & do nothing until the other guy gets horrid shuffle luck. Basically doing nothing gives you 50% odds that you crumble first, but buying anything else gives >50% odds of crumbling first. Eventually someone whiffs and then it is in one or more players interest to buy more cards.
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tim17

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Re: Infinite stalemate game
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2017, 10:01:43 pm »
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I was thinking about this the other day, turns out there is a thread on the forum from forever ago. A couple I had in mind:

1. You get down to KC KC Militia Masq, but your opponent already has more than half the VP islanded away (and can't empty any piles other than copper and curse). He can't end the game as long as you keep pinning him, and you don't want to end it because you can't win.

2. With tax, I think a scenario like the following might be reasonable:

The estates and some other pile are empty, and the only remaining VP are duchies and provinces. Scores are currently tied. There are two duchies left, and you hit 4 and 2 buys. Since you're afraid your opponent will hit 10 and 2 buys for the last 2 duchies, you tax the duchies twice. Your opponent hits 4 and 2 buys and does the same. This goes on until there's a huge pile of debt on the duchies. Eventually the same thing happens with the provinces when they get down to 2 left, and ultimately to every other pile in the game. The idea is that you never want to buy the 2nd to last of anything, because your opponent will almost certainly be able to afford the last one and a province (or duchy) before you can pay off the debt.

This feels like something that would only actually happen between two bots, but it seems like in the right situation it would arguably be the correct line of play.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Infinite stalemate game
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2017, 10:24:42 pm »
+1

I was thinking about this the other day, turns out there is a thread on the forum from forever ago. A couple I had in mind:

1. You get down to KC KC Militia Masq, but your opponent already has more than half the VP islanded away (and can't empty any piles other than copper and curse). He can't end the game as long as you keep pinning him, and you don't want to end it because you can't win.

2. With tax, I think a scenario like the following might be reasonable:

The estates and some other pile are empty, and the only remaining VP are duchies and provinces. Scores are currently tied. There are two duchies left, and you hit 4 and 2 buys. Since you're afraid your opponent will hit 10 and 2 buys for the last 2 duchies, you tax the duchies twice. Your opponent hits 4 and 2 buys and does the same. This goes on until there's a huge pile of debt on the duchies. Eventually the same thing happens with the provinces when they get down to 2 left, and ultimately to every other pile in the game. The idea is that you never want to buy the 2nd to last of anything, because your opponent will almost certainly be able to afford the last one and a province (or duchy) before you can pay off the debt.

This feels like something that would only actually happen between two bots, but it seems like in the right situation it would arguably be the correct line of play.

#1 can't happen anymore because Masq has been modified to only pass cards among players with cards.

Qvist

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Re: Infinite stalemate game
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2017, 07:52:21 am »
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Possession with debt, see

It's the first game but is nearly 40mins long. Basically the gist is multiple Possession turns buying Annex so that your opponent has to pay off your debt when he possesses you. If both do that, it will be a stalemate.
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luser

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Re: Infinite stalemate game
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2017, 08:05:17 am »
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For infinite it happened in one of possession/donate game. Optimal strategy was to donate to get deck with two possessions and village, then donate again to have only these in deck with no way to repay debt. if one player doesn't do that second wins because he could build better engine using other's player deck.
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