Topic: Black Market + Trader (Read 6463 times)

Simon (DK) · « **on:** January 22, 2015, 08:42:44 pm »

If you play Black Market, buy a card and reveal Trader to get a Silver instead, then what happens with the bought card?
Black Market says to put the unbought cards on the bottom of the Black Market deck. Since the card was bought, this doesn't happen.
Does it just stay in the reveal-area? And if it does, is it then included the next time a card does something with the "revealed cards"?

GeoLib · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2015, 08:48:33 pm »

Well on goko the card is stuck back into the BM deck. Not that that's necessarily an indication of anything...

TheOthin · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2015, 09:00:53 pm »

I'm guessing "unbought" would get ruled to include cards that were bought and not gained; I don't think that conflicts with any other wordings?

jaketheyak · « **Reply #3 on:** January 22, 2015, 11:16:53 pm »

According to this discussion on BGG, it goes back on top of the Black Market deck.

AJD · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2015, 01:38:04 am »

…Because revealed cards go back where they came from when there are no instructions to put them somewhere else.

GendoIkari · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2015, 02:56:22 pm »

Wow... so many years of playing Dominion, and still new interactions come up that I never would have thought about!

blueblimp · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2015, 06:32:11 pm »

Quote from: AJD on January 23, 2015, 01:38:04 am

…Because revealed cards go back where they came from when there are no instructions to put them somewhere else.

Is there any other case where this applies? I thought all reveal instructions are accompanied by something telling you where the card goes after.

pacovf · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2015, 06:38:10 pm »

Quote from: blueblimp on January 25, 2015, 06:32:11 pm

Quote from: AJD on January 23, 2015, 01:38:04 am
…Because revealed cards go back where they came from when there are no instructions to put them somewhere else.
Is there any other case where this applies? I thought all reveal instructions are accompanied by something telling you where the card goes after.

When you reveal a card from your hand (reactions), you usually aren't told that the card stays in your hand.

EDIT: and ironmonger doesn't specify what to do with the revealed card if you don't discard it.

As far as I can tell, revealed cards are supposed to still be wherever you are revealing them from. If, say, navigator didn't specify to put the revealed cards back on top of your deck in the order of your choosing, they would have to stay in whichever order they were before, because they haven't actually moved from where they were. Navigator doesn't actually reveal cards.

...But that would be confusing.

Simon (DK) · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:36:35 pm »

Quote from: pacovf on January 25, 2015, 06:38:10 pm

As far as I can tell, revealed cards are supposed to still be wherever you are revealing them from. If, say, navigator didn't specify to put the revealed cards back on top of your deck in the order of your choosing, they would have to stay in whichever order they were before, because they haven't actually moved from where they were. Navigator doesn't actually reveal cards.

That's not the case. If you play Lighthouse and trash Rats or Overgrown Estate, you trash the card after the revealed cards. You don't have to remember which of the revealed non-trashed cards were on the top.

Joseph2302 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:37:47 pm »

Quote from: Simon (DK) on January 25, 2015, 07:36:35 pm

Quote from: pacovf on January 25, 2015, 06:38:10 pm
As far as I can tell, revealed cards are supposed to still be wherever you are revealing them from. If, say, navigator didn't specify to put the revealed cards back on top of your deck in the order of your choosing, they would have to stay in whichever order they were before, because they haven't actually moved from where they were. Navigator doesn't actually reveal cards.

That's not the case. If you play Lighthouse and trash Rats or Overgrown Estate, you trash the card after the revealed cards. You don't have to remember which of the revealed non-trashed cards were on the top.

Assume you meant Lookout, not Lighthouse.

pacovf · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2015, 08:20:45 pm »

Lookout "looks" at the cards on the top of your deck, it doesn't reveal them, though.

Scout does reveal them, so my previous post could apply there.

Asper · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2015, 08:43:33 pm »

As far as i remember, Wishing Well does not tell you where the revealed card goes if you guess wrong, so there's a precedent. Furthermore i think that all cards that reveal multiple cards include the "any order" phrase so people don't have to remember the order they were in originally.

All in all the ruling to put it back on top can be deducted from the reveal ruling, but i can't blame Goko for treating them like unbought cards. IThe way it works certainly doesn't look like a deliberate design decision.

Simon (DK) · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2015, 07:37:38 am »

Quote from: Joseph2302 on January 25, 2015, 07:37:47 pm

Quote from: Simon (DK) on January 25, 2015, 07:36:35 pm
Quote from: pacovf on January 25, 2015, 06:38:10 pm
As far as I can tell, revealed cards are supposed to still be wherever you are revealing them from. If, say, navigator didn't specify to put the revealed cards back on top of your deck in the order of your choosing, they would have to stay in whichever order they were before, because they haven't actually moved from where they were. Navigator doesn't actually reveal cards.

That's not the case. If you play Lighthouse and trash Rats or Overgrown Estate, you trash the card after the revealed cards. You don't have to remember which of the revealed non-trashed cards were on the top.
Assume you meant Lookout, not Lighthouse.

Lol. Haha. You're right

I was pretty tired when I wrote it.

Simon (DK) · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2015, 07:39:36 am »

Quote from: pacovf on January 25, 2015, 08:20:45 pm

Lookout "looks" at the cards on the top of your deck, it doesn't reveal them, though.

Scout does reveal them, so my previous post could apply there.

Ok. Another one then: If a Knight trashes a Rats, the player trashing the Rats will draw the top unrevealed card. Not the other revealed card.

Jimmmmm · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2015, 07:44:31 am »

That's awesome. So if you want a Silver anyway, you can do this to leave that useless Treasure Map for your opponent.

Davio · « **Reply #15 on:** January 26, 2015, 08:20:05 am »

Quote from: jaketheyak on January 22, 2015, 11:16:53 pm

According to this discussion on BGG, it goes back on top of the Black Market deck.

I don't believe the card goes anywhere during your Black Market phase. Cards only move when you gain them, not when you buy them. That's at least my interpretation.

Donald once explained this with an analogy of buying a CD on Amazon. Buying it just means paying for it, but the CD has to be shipped to you and when you receive it, that's when you finally gain it. You could buy it, quickly cancel your order and it would never move from the warehouse.

So I believe you can buy anything, including cards from the Black Market deck, reveal Trader and the card just stays where it was, in this case on top of the BM deck. The weird part is that it's not an "unbought" card, so it doesn't go to the bottom.

jaketheyak · « **Reply #16 on:** January 26, 2015, 03:50:56 pm »

Quote from: Davio on January 26, 2015, 08:20:05 am

Quote from: jaketheyak on January 22, 2015, 11:16:53 pm
According to this discussion on BGG, it goes back on top of the Black Market deck.
I don't believe the card goes anywhere during your Black Market phase. Cards only move when you gain them, not when you buy them. That's at least my interpretation.

Donald once explained this with an analogy of buying a CD on Amazon. Buying it just means paying for it, but the CD has to be shipped to you and when you receive it, that's when you finally gain it. You could buy it, quickly cancel your order and it would never move from the warehouse.

So I believe you can buy anything, including cards from the Black Market deck, reveal Trader and the card just stays where it was, in this case on top of the BM deck. The weird part is that it's not an "unbought" card, so it doesn't go to the bottom.

Er, I guess in an abstract sense the cards you look at from the Black Market are on the top of the Black Market deck until they are gained or moved to the bottom of the deck. But in an actual, physical, sense you have to turn them over to see what they are. So, this hypothetical card is "staying where it is", but tell people that and they will leave it face up on the table, which is wrong.

Davio · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2015, 01:31:01 pm »

Oh yeah, I could definitely see a case for removing it from the Black Market deck altogether.

Card is turned over, someone bought it, so it's not added to the bottom of the deck (it's not "unbought").
So it stays turned over forever, without anyone ever being able to buy it again (you can only buy cards you turn over).

GendoIkari · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2015, 03:08:16 pm »

Quote from: Davio on January 27, 2015, 01:31:01 pm

Oh yeah, I could definitely see a case for removing it from the Black Market deck altogether.

Card is turned over, someone bought it, so it's not added to the bottom of the deck (it's not "unbought").
So it stays turned over forever, without anyone ever being able to buy it again (you can only buy cards you turn over).

No way.... if you followed that rule, then the card revealed by Wishing Well would be gone from your deck forever if you guessed wrong.

Jeebus · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2015, 02:04:57 pm »

Revealing or looking at a card is the same, the only difference is who gets to see the card.

Revealed/looked at cards stay where they are, except if they are in your deck. In that case you technically set them aside while they are revealed/looked at. (See paragraph 15 in the FAQ in my sig, Donald explained this.) Then return them to where they came from unless instructed otherwise (per the printed rules). This is important because if the revealed/looked at cards were still in your deck, you would get weird situations with Lookout etc as has been brought up in this thread, and also Golem.

Asper · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2015, 02:54:54 pm »

Quote from: Jimmmmm on January 26, 2015, 07:44:31 am

That's awesome. So if you want a Silver anyway, you can do this to leave that useless Treasure Map for your opponent.

You have to pay one more $ than for regular Silver, and it just limits his choices by half. If the next player to use Black Market is you, you basically hindered yourself. With style, of course.

Davio · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2015, 02:12:37 am »

Would be cool to play Black Market 3 times during your turn and leave a Treasure Map and 2 Potion cards on top (assuming your opponent didn't buy a Potion specifically for the BM deck).

Simon (DK) · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2015, 02:28:33 am »

Quote from: Davio on February 04, 2015, 02:12:37 am

Would be cool to play Black Market 3 times during your turn and leave a Treasure Map and 2 Potion cards on top (assuming your opponent didn't buy a Potion specifically for the BM deck).

You can't do that. The first 2 times you leave a card on top, you'll get the card yourself next time you play BM. Only the last card you leave on top will be for your opponent.

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Author Topic: Black Market + Trader (Read 6463 times)