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Author Topic: Corrections to some wiki articles  (Read 15671 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2015, 01:00:22 pm »
+4

This all raises an interesting question: is your hand your deck? Or is it one of the things you return to your deck at the end of the game, like Island or Duration cards or Prince?

By official terminology, the latter. In common usage (including throughout the wiki), also the former.

An even more unfortunate ambiguity is "action". Very often in IRL I hear something like "I have two actions, but I don't have any actions", and it can mean entirely opposite things at different times, even when spoken by the same person. Even in official usage, "Action" has two different meanings. It's a constant source of confusion for newer players.

Imagine if Adventures adds Action tokens.

"I have two Actions, but I don't have any Actions, though I do have some Actions."
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2015, 01:17:22 pm »
+11

We could just have an edge-case filter, where all edge cases in the wiki are tagged appropriately, and you can enable/disable edge case visibility in your account options.

Edge case: you're interested in some edge cases, but not all.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2015, 03:36:25 pm »
+1

We could just have an edge-case filter, where all edge cases in the wiki are tagged appropriately, and you can enable/disable edge case visibility in your account options.

Edge case: you're interested in some edge cases, but not all.

That calls for an edge-case filter-filter.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2015, 08:07:04 am »
0

So should the Scout page say "You'll never want to buy this card"?

I'm *so* looking forward to 30 more "How does this combo with Scout?" threads.  I don't think we ever did one for Prince.

Prince actually DOES help to remedy some of the problems certain "nombos" have, mostly a lack of +actions or the need to play a card very often. Scout fits in neither category and so i assume it would still be one of the worst princeable cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2015, 10:47:19 am »
0

So should the Scout page say "You'll never want to buy this card"?

I'm *so* looking forward to 30 more "How does this combo with Scout?" threads.  I don't think we ever did one for Prince.

Prince actually DOES help to remedy some of the problems certain "nombos" have, mostly a lack of +actions or the need to play a card very often. Scout fits in neither category and so i assume it would still be one of the worst princeable cards.

Hey, Princing Scout *does* give you +Actions.  But I'm sure spending the time getting to $8 then lining it up with Scout would probably be outpaced by whatever else is on the board by that point if there's no other engine potential.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2015, 12:15:55 pm »
+1

So should the Scout page say "You'll never want to buy this card"?

I'm *so* looking forward to 30 more "How does this combo with Scout?" threads.  I don't think we ever did one for Prince.

Prince actually DOES help to remedy some of the problems certain "nombos" have, mostly a lack of +actions or the need to play a card very often. Scout fits in neither category and so i assume it would still be one of the worst princeable cards.

Hey, Princing Scout *does* give you +Actions.  But I'm sure spending the time getting to $8 then lining it up with Scout would probably be outpaced by whatever else is on the board by that point if there's no other engine potential.

I would consider princing scout against a rabble engine.  Not that I would ever actually do that because that would mean I have to buy scout, and I wouldn't waste a buy on scout.
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jomini

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2015, 04:05:52 pm »
+2

So should the Scout page say "You'll never want to buy this card"?

I'm *so* looking forward to 30 more "How does this combo with Scout?" threads.  I don't think we ever did one for Prince.

Prince actually DOES help to remedy some of the problems certain "nombos" have, mostly a lack of +actions or the need to play a card very often. Scout fits in neither category and so i assume it would still be one of the worst princeable cards.

Hey, Princing Scout *does* give you +Actions.  But I'm sure spending the time getting to $8 then lining it up with Scout would probably be outpaced by whatever else is on the board by that point if there's no other engine potential.

I would consider princing scout against a rabble engine.  Not that I would ever actually do that because that would mean I have to buy scout, and I wouldn't waste a buy on scout.

Scout is only completely terrible if you have to pay for it. When you can get it for a really low opportunity cost (e.g. off Iw or something) there are a number of setups where it does combo: Vineyards, Pools, Harem/Noble/Greathall, and Xroads do work out for Scout. The problem is that any time those are viable, there is almost certainly something better to grab for the vast, vast majority of the game. For instance, if I'm playing a Highway/Nobles setup at a certain point a spare buy I cannot otherwise use does work better as a Scout than nothing (or anything else <$5, I have 4 Hwy in play). Scout/Pool/Gainer/X is a pretty decent improvement on Pool/Gainer/X if you have only light trashing (particularly something like Moneylender) adding "free" nonterminals that may draw to Pool is pretty nice, vacuuming up greens works decently when your draw is huge, and ordering allows you to maximize Pool draw.

I've played a few times with a house rule where Scout costs $0 and that makes somewhat useful. You need Scout to cost more than a buy (maybe $2 or $3) before it becomes truly useless.
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AdamH

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2015, 07:16:00 am »
+6

I've found that Scout/Crossroads is only a combo if you're doing a puzzle where you assume perfect shuffle luck.
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theright555J

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2015, 09:10:43 am »
+10

I've found that Scout/Crossroads is only a combo if you're doing a puzzle where you make your own shuffle luck.

FTFY  :)
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2015, 03:35:24 pm »
+1

I've found that Scout/Crossroads is only a combo if you're doing a puzzle where you assume perfect shuffle luck.
Where would you have experience with that?
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2015, 03:38:31 pm »
0

Ok, I've updated the wiki. I'm making them in the spirit that, as Rubby said, even if the corrections are extremely minor, it's probably a good idea to improve the accuracy of the wiki. I think this serves the purpose not only of accuracy for accuracy's sake, but also may get players thinking about card combinations they may not have thought about.

I've listed additions in italics and deletions in strikeout. These are all to the Dark Ages page.
  • "Spoils may be gained only through Bandit Camp, Marauder, or Pillage, or from another player via Thief."
  • "Fortress - the only card that can never be removed from your deck via trashing". As noted, technically Fortress leaves your deck (defined as all your cards, not just your draw pile), right before it goes back into your hand, but I think the updated statement is still much closer to accurate than the previous version.
  • "Rogue - a weak card, but the only one of the few capable of stealing non-Treasure cards from other players".
On the page for Spoils:
  • "Spoils can also be stolen from other players with Thief, or obtained via Masquerade." I'm making this change to the rules clarifications because the official FAQs (which I didn't change, DON'T WORRY everybody  :) ) specifically says about Spoils: "it can only be obtained via Bandit Camp, Marauder, and Pillage." That's incorrect; it can only be gained by those cards and by Thief. But since the official FAQ specifically says those three cards are the only way to "obtain" the card, the rules clarification should correct that error: Thief and Masq will do it too (but not Amb or Rogue).
For Rogue, I'd really like to find a way of mentioning that although it isn't the only way to obtain cards from another player's deck (and isn't even the most direct way, since it's a 2-step process that goes through the trash first, and allows other players to gain the card first), it is the easiest single-card way to obtain useful cards from other players. Masq gains you cards more directly - as does your opponent's Amb - but usually you get cards you don't really want. The point of Rogue is that it trashes more expensive cards that you might actually want, and doesn't let your opponent choose a worthless card. (Of course you can also use Knights + Graverobber to gain nice cards from other players, but that's no longer a single card.)

How about some wording like this? "Rogue - a weak card, but usually the only card capable of stealing valuable non-Treasure cards from other players". I suggest "usually" because a well-trashed Masq deck requires you to pass decent cards, and that happens often enough to me or my opponent that I wouldn't call that an edge case - it's sort of a natural byproduct of a Masq deck if you're not careful, especially if you're using Masq as part of an engine that plays it frequently.
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AdamH

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2015, 03:42:20 pm »
0

I've found that Scout/Crossroads is only a combo if you're doing a puzzle where you make your own shuffle luck.

FTFY  :)

This is amazing. I post something that has actual value in Dominion with a little bit of snark peppered in to get some +1s, since we are indeed F.DS and snark is rewarded.

Then someone comes along and makes a better joke than me. Great. I was the first to +1 that. Well played.

But why did nobody +1 my post? I still thought it was pretty funny...  :-\

:P
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Bench of Bishops

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2015, 03:46:14 pm »
0

OK, after I reassured everyone in my last post that I wasn't editing any Official FAQ material, I'm now wondering about the "Additional Materials" section in the Dark Ages page. Is that also official material? In that case, I should undo my change to Spoils.
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pacovf

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2015, 03:54:35 pm »
+1

I've found that Scout/Crossroads is only a combo if you're doing a puzzle where you make your own shuffle luck.

FTFY  :)

This is amazing. I post something that has actual value in Dominion with a little bit of snark peppered in to get some +1s, since we are indeed F.DS and snark is rewarded.

Then someone comes along and makes a better joke than me. Great. I was the first to +1 that. Well played.

But why did nobody +1 my post? I still thought it was pretty funny...  :-\

:P

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« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 04:00:13 pm by pacovf »
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werothegreat

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2015, 03:58:55 pm »
0

OK, after I reassured everyone in my last post that I wasn't editing any Official FAQ material, I'm now wondering about the "Additional Materials" section in the Dark Ages page. Is that also official material? In that case, I should undo my change to Spoils.

I just checked - it's not.  I did put your addition in parentheses, though, since the *normal* way to get them is through those three cards, and not Thief.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2015, 04:34:25 pm »
+1

I've found that Scout/Crossroads is only a combo if you're doing a puzzle where you make your own shuffle luck.

FTFY  :)

This is amazing. I post something that has actual value in Dominion with a little bit of snark peppered in to get some +1s, since we are indeed F.DS and snark is rewarded.

Then someone comes along and makes a better joke than me. Great. I was the first to +1 that. Well played.

But why did nobody +1 my post? I still thought it was pretty funny...  :-\

:P

I'm a big fan, Adam, sorry I intercepted your +1's.  For what it's worth I went back and +1'd your post!  ;)
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2015, 05:29:48 pm »
+1

They can't all be the best solicitation-of-respect-after-explaining-why-you-deserve-it post.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2015, 05:32:32 pm »
+2

And for what it's worth, Adam, I took your post about the combo as straight statement of fact.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2015, 07:02:02 am »
+2

if you draw prince with scout and no other actions (say a swindler game.... omg sidenote... swindler is mean with prince on the board... at least with peddlers you can just buy them all) you should surely prince the scout; it's better than waiting around for a better prince target.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2015, 03:47:40 pm »
0

if you draw prince with scout and no other actions (say a swindler game.... omg sidenote... swindler is mean with prince on the board... at least with peddlers you can just buy them all) you should surely prince the scout; it's better than waiting around for a better prince target.

True. It's not great, but a free action, potentially more non-green cards in hand and some anti-Swindler rearranging are better than two potentially dead cards in your deck.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2015, 04:05:19 pm »
+1

It's not anti-Swindler, is it? You rearrange the cards on top of your deck, then if you don't draw them that turn you draw them during cleanup, all before your opponent has a chance to attack.
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werothegreat

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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2015, 04:16:54 pm »
0

Now I'm just thinking about Princing a Swindler.
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2015, 04:23:16 pm »
+9

There is one Province left.
The Peddler pile is empty.
You are behind by 3 points on your Outpost turn.
You play a Village, and now have a hand containing Cutpurse, Outpost, and Scout.
Playing Cutpurse reveals your opponent's hand of Swindler, Silver, Silver, Silver, Estate.
Saddened by your opponents purchasing power, you play your last hope, Scout, which Reveals a Peddler, 2 Golds, and a Silver.
You realize the amazing anti-Swindler effect of Scout and are pleased that it has once again proved it is the best card in Dominion and allowed you to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
You put your Peddler back first, and then your treasures.
You play Outpost to limit your Clean-up Phase drawing to 3 cards, and buy an Estate.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 05:13:34 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2015, 04:42:36 pm »
0

There is one Province left.
The Peddler pile is empty.
You are behind by 3 points on your Outpost turn.
You play a Village, and now have a hand containing Cutpurse, Outpost, and Scout.
Playing Cutpurse reveals your opponent's hand of Swindler, Silver, Silver, Silver, Estate.
Saddened by your opponents purchasing power, you play your last hope, Scout, which Reveals a Peddler, 2 Golds, and a Silver.
You realize the amazing anti-Swindler effect of Scout and are pleased that it has once again proved it is the best card in Dominion and allowed you to snatch victory from the jaws of Defeat.
You put your Peddler back first, and then your treasures.
You play Outpost to limit your Clean-up Phase drawing to 3 cards, and buy an Estate.

And then you win on your Outpost turn and draw the Peddler?
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Re: Corrections to some wiki articles
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2015, 05:04:43 pm »
0

There is one Province left.
The Peddler pile is empty.
You are behind by 3 points on your Outpost turn.
You play a Village, and now have a hand containing Cutpurse, Outpost, and Scout.
Playing Cutpurse reveals your opponent's hand of Swindler, Silver, Silver, Silver, Estate.
Saddened by your opponents purchasing power, you play your last hope, Scout, which Reveals a Peddler, 2 Golds, and a Silver.
You realize the amazing anti-Swindler effect of Scout and are pleased that it has once again proved it is the best card in Dominion and allowed you to snatch victory from the jaws of Defeat.
You put your Peddler back first, and then your treasures.
You play Outpost to limit your Clean-up Phase drawing to 3 cards, and buy an Estate.

And then you win on your Outpost turn and draw the Peddler?

No it's already an outpost turn. You play a second outpost to get the 3-card hand, but you don't get the extra turn.
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