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[AdamH]

So I had a couple of games I played in the league that have been bothering me. I'd like to see what I could have done better in these games, because I'm not really seeing anything and ymyosl. If you have any suggestions, I'd be appreciative.

These games are on stream, but I haven't highlighted them or anything. If you'd like to hear my thoughts on video throughout the game or if that makes it easier to follow, I'll probably get to highlighting them soon and then I can link them here, but I haven't done that yet.


Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150117/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1421528818066.txt

Embassy/Tunnel, yeah? I've played this a couple of times and it's always ended up performing worse than BM+Embassy. So is Embassy/Tunnel not that good, or am I not playing it right? What would you do differently?

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150117/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1421529803126.txt

The only real difference I see in our play (besides our draws, obviously) is that my opponent wanted to use Herald as his primary source of draw and I wanted to use Fishing Village/Journeyman. I chose this because of the opportunity to use Doctor for fine-tuned trashing and I thought the deck would green better. I don't know how much of a difference it really makes, TBH, since the payload here is Grand Market and the game will likely end on piles (will it?). I felt one or two turns behind the entire game. What could I have done better here?

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150117/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1421530853461.txt

No draw here, but lots going on. The only comment in the chat is that I should have been looking for mid-turn Develop tricks, but I did that a couple of times and never felt that I could do anything profitable (I'd always end up drawing dead actions or something). Obviously I'm behind because he gets to bane my first YW and I don't, but is there something else? Specifics would be nice because I'm not finding them...

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150117/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1421531584853.txt

Game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150118/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1421597116880.txt

These two games, I'm quite certain that with my draws I was going to lose no matter what.

For game 4, some people were suggesting an Ironworks/Urchin opening, and they said I should have picked up an Ironworks at some point, but actually given my draws, the last time I ever had $4 was turn 3, where it was clear to me that anything other than Urchin would have been a giant mistake. I believe that when I resigned this game, I had less than 0.01% chance of winning, assuming my opponent doesn't just throw the game. My big question here is about Ironworks. Yeah I want one, but how can you justify opening Ironworks/Urchin here (or ever)? And if you don't open with it, was there a time I should have picked one up (given my draws)? What if I had $4 on T4, after seeing that my Urchins didn't collide? Is an Ironworks better than Urchin #4 in that case?

For game 5, I'll admit that I was fully on tilt when I resigned this one. My chances were less than 5% but in a league match it was certainly worth playing out, so I'm not trying to justify my resignation here, that decision was purely emotional. On the other hand, is there anything I should have done differently? My opponent opened Swindler/Urchin instead of my double Urchin opening, which to me seems like a clear misplay (though it certainly works out for him). It's very possible that I'm not able to look at this game objectively. Now aside from the fact that it clearly didn't matter what my buys actually were because they all just got Swindled anyways, could I have done anything different here? Is there any merit to a Swindler opening here?

-------------------

I really don't like to blame luck for my losses, it's a last resort for me, if you will. What I'd really like to find from this is ways I could have done better given my bad draws -- I find that sometimes I don't react well to bad draws, which keeps me from having the best chance to come back in some games. If it's all luck and I played perfectly, then so be it, but I really doubt that. Thanks for listening to me whine.

[TheOthin]

How do you figure Swindler/Urchin as a misplay?

[AdamH]

I say this because it decreases your chances of getting Mercenary early, plus the attack and money aren't as relevant because most of what Swindler hits will just end up in the trash anyways. I'd prefer to pick up a Swindler after getting Mercenary.

Is this wrong?

[jsh357]

You want the Swindler.  Swindler/Urchin is the correct play.  Just imagine if your Swindler had been making those hits.  It's a dumb, silly card, but it's powerful.  Sometimes you have to take that chance.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Game 1:
2nd Tunnel is borderline for me, I might prefer Silver (but it's close). I definitely prefer Silver over the 3rd Tunnel. I think on turn 11 I wouldn't trigger the reshuffle. But I mean Embassy is going to lose if your two Embassies collide at the bottom of your shuffle twice, there's no way around it.

Game 2:
Your early purchases all look reasonable to me, your Journeyman and Smithy decided to go to the bottom of a shuffle and that can be enough on a fast board. Obviously getting two Hagglers in play and buying a Province really ups the value of Tao Chen's deck quickly.

Game 3:
I read through this log but it's really hard to evaluate your greening choices because I wasn't sure exactly how many Develops/Jesters were left in the supply in any given turn. It's possible that you turn for Duchies too soon (though I understand there must have been 3 pile fears). My gut impression of the first several turns is that you got too many Develops. I think some of those are worth making Silvers.

On the Urchin games I like Urchin/Urchin openings just fine, but I think your opponent's openings are okay too. I like Militia/Urchin least of all of them. Obviously Swindler has some major upsides with good luck.

I'd like to mention that even if you were terribly unlucky (and I think you were some). It still requires skillful play on your opponents parts to convert that into a win. Resignation makes it so they don't have to do any work at all.

I also don't think what happens in the Urchin or Swindler games is qualitatively different than what happens in every single Dominion game. Someone gets some advantage due to shuffles (big or small) and then has to exploit that advantage to get the win. Not that you are saying it's different, but my impression is that people get way more upset about these things than say Steward lining up with Coppers vs Estates to trash.

[AdamH]

You want the Swindler.  Swindler/Urchin is the correct play.  Just imagine if your Swindler had been making those hits.  It's a dumb, silly card, but it's powerful.  Sometimes you have to take that chance.

If it's wrong, why? Just telling me it's wrong doesn't make me believe it.

Usually when there's Urchin and another attack I could open, usually I talk myself out of opening Urchin/Attack and just open double Urchin instead, because the reason I'm going for Urchin is because I need to get them a quickly as possible and that's the only thing that matters, at all. Nothing gives you higher odds of getting Mercenary ASAP than a double Urchin opening.

This post gives numbers that start to make sense to me. This isn't perfect yet, but this is the kind of justification that would convince me. I think all cases need to be taken into account (are you 1P or 2P? I think that might matter?) but if these numbers still add up to something, then in a vacuum I could see a case for Swindler here.

I'd like to mention that even if you were terribly unlucky (and I think you were some). It still requires skillful play on your opponents parts to convert that into a win. Resignation makes it so they don't have to do any work at all.

I also don't think what happens in the Urchin or Swindler games is qualitatively different than what happens in every single Dominion game. Someone gets some advantage due to shuffles (big or small) and then has to exploit that advantage to get the win. Not that you are saying it's different, but my impression is that people get way more upset about these things than say Steward lining up with Coppers vs Estates to trash.

Of course this is all true. I'd say you're much farther behind with Urchin (and in some cases, Swingler) than with some of your other examples, so it feels worse. I mean the reason I was (and still am, as unjustifiable as it is) so upset about it is because it didn't feel good to be so far behind because of something I felt I had no control over. The Swindler resignation is not something I'm attempting to defend, but getting to the bottom of what's better could help my game and that's what I want.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Of course this is all true. I'd say you're much farther behind with Urchin (and in some cases, Swingler) than with some of your other examples, so it feels worse. I mean the reason I was (and still am, as unjustifiable as it is) so upset about it is because it didn't feel good to be so far behind because of something I felt I had no control over. The Swindler resignation is not something I'm attempting to defend, but getting to the bottom of what's better could help my game and that's what I want.

I actually think it goes the other way, it feels terrible to be attacked like that so people assume it's much worse than it is. I think there are lots of opening scenarios that give similar advantages for one player without attacks being involved and they don't feel so bad. The general classes being hitting double 5s on reshuffle, or lining up junk with your opening trasher and money with your money.

I think it would be great to get to the bottom of Urchin/Urchin vs Urchin/Swindler but I don't know how to do that without playing a bunch of Urchin/Swindler boards. The probabilities are a start but not that helpful as it doesn't tell us what the impact of the event is just the likelihood of it happening. And if they're pretty close in usefulness, it's not worth it to distinguish between them. My bet would be on Urchin/Urchin, if that makes you feel any better. Maybe it makes you feel worse, I don't know.

I actually think the knowledge you're after would be way less useful to your game than just learning to laugh this stuff off and refocus on the games as you play them.

[DG]

Game 1 is about embassies drawing badly. I'm guessing a simulator will show embassy/tunnel is better than embassy/treasure and that's all it needs to be. No need for third embassy though.

Game 3 too many develops. You get a fourth when your opponent has one young witch.

Game 4 I don't mind the militia/urchin opening. The militia will be strong in the early/middle game when the opponent wants to draw and trash with mercenaries. It's a game you could have continued because possession and mercenaries can both suit a weaker deck.

Game 5 Buy a swindler on turn 4.

[AdamH]

I actually think the knowledge you're after would be way less useful to your game than just learning to laugh this stuff off and refocus on the games as you play them.

This thread is not about that, though. If what you say is true, then that's something I'd rather do offline. I already stated that I'm not trying to defend my resignation in game 5.

On the other hand, knowing the things that can be exceptions to the rule of "always open double Urchin if the goal is to connect Mercenary ASAP" is something that will not only be useful to me, but to lots of other people. Knowing why is even better because it helps me (and anyone else who reads it) apply that knowledge to other situations in the game, make approximate calculations to help me justify or question decisions I make.

On a completely unrelated note, I don't know if you're planning a Tunnel cage match, but I'd certainly like to see one now. Just a suggestion.

[Mic Qsenoch]

On a completely unrelated note, I don't know if you're planning a Tunnel cage match, but I'd certainly like to see one now. Just a suggestion.

I like Tunnel, but I see it as low priority because it's kind of weak. Maybe someday though. Also, the hardest part about the Cage Match is just finding someone to play with me, so if you want to come on again and your vote is for Tunnel then we can play a Tunnel match. But I might require an IOU for another non-Tunnel cage match  .

[AdamH]

Oh you don't want to play me in a Tunnel cage match, I'm awful with that card. I suggested it to try and get two good people to play a bunch of Tunnel games and I could watch it

EDIT: I'd love to play cage matches with you. I want to make an effort to play Dominion for-funsies over the next league season that I'm taking off. Cage matches sound like fun, as long as they aren't cards like Black Market or Knights, or cards that I know I'm weak with (like Apothecary, Tunnel)

[kn1tt3r]

In Game 1 (Embassy/Tunnel) there was a point where you had 9 cards in your draw pile, with both of your Embassies in it (it was turn 10 I think). There you had $4 and bought another Tunnel. While I think Tunnel at this point is not very good in general (Silver would have been better), I would have seriously considered a Nomad Camp here to keep both your Embassies for the following shuffle.

Overall, quite some rough luck in some of those games.

[c4master]

Game 1:
2nd Tunnel is borderline for me, I might prefer Silver (but it's close). I definitely prefer Silver over the 3rd Tunnel. I think on turn 11 I wouldn't trigger the reshuffle. But I mean Embassy is going to lose if your two Embassies collide at the bottom of your shuffle twice, there's no way around it.

Yeah. Usually you do not want many Tunnels, just two of them are enough.