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Author Topic: Dominion: Adventures^^  (Read 14802 times)

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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2015, 01:32:42 pm »
+2

There are 10 tokens for each player.  So what could the effects be?  The vanilla bonuses are 4 obvious ones.  Another obvious one is a token that makes each copy of the card worth 1VP more.  You could also have a simple cost reduction token.  An interesting bonus would be a cost increase, which is only a bonus in combination with TfB (or Border Village).  Maybe a token could add "trash a card" as an effect.  Maybe a token could transform a card into a Reserve card, whatever that means.  A token could make the card untrashable like Fortress.  Or a token could give a card the Moat reaction.  There are many possibilities, though they should be kept simple.

Stuff I consider interesting and simple enough to tack on kingdom cards:

+1 Card +1 Action.
Changes any card into a cantrip. Maybe they appear together because +1 Action is too strong on terminals and +1 Card is too strong on non-terminals, so giving both makes it more comfortable. I would appreciate to get the carddraw after the normal effect of the cards because that would be cute with Scout, Navigator, or other top-of-deck-looking cards.

+$1 +1 Buy.
Rising the economic value of your cards. +1 buy for itself would be quite weak, so I'd put these together as well.

Worth 1 VP.
Sounds straightforward and quite interesting.

Gain a Silver.
Consolidates your deck each time you play it!

Costs $1 less.
Nice idea! I guess the chits must have very few words because they are chits. The "never costs less than $0" would have to go into the rulebook. The effect is tough to define for multiple players. I'd go with "during your turn only" - something else for the rulebook ;).


To me, everything else sounds either too wordy or not compelling enough. So there would be 2 tokens each (I'd allow stacking similar tokens on the same pile).
Maaybe there could be a turn-into-Reserve token (or just a throne token), but this sounds incredibly strong.

My idea how they come into the game is that they have to be specifically mentioned. Like:

Quote
Invention (Event) $5
Move one of your +1 Card +1 Action tokens on an Action pile in the supply.
This one should be very expensive, maybe even $6. I would go with the BoM ruling that the token's effect will not work when the pile gets emptied. Then you could buy Invention again to move the token on another pile.

Maybe the economy token could cost $2, the VP token $4, the Silver token $3 and the cost reduction $4?


Sure there would also be kingdom cards that use the tokens. I think you shouldn't be able to mock with the tokens on-play because that may be confusing to track actions/ coins/ buys.

Something evolving like Pirate Ship is pretty obvious:
Quote
Exploration Ship (Action) $5
When you discard this from play, you may put it back to the supply. If you do, put any of your tokens on the Exploration ship pile.

There could also be a devolving Victory card using the not-on-play tokens only, having sort of a token Attack:
Quote
Treacherous Swamp (Victory) $5
Worth 2 VP.
______________________
Setup: All players put 2 "Worth 1 VP" and "Costs $1 less" tokens on this pile.
When a player gains a Province, each other player removes one token from this pile.

Speaking of Attacks:
Quote
Grandfather's Trail Mix (Action-Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player chooses one of his tokens and moves it to a cheaper supply pile. If he doesn't, he puts a "+$1 +1 Buy" token on the Gold pile and gains a Curse.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 01:34:46 pm by market squire »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2015, 05:37:54 pm »
+1

Adding +1 Card and +1 Action together seems way too good.  You said +1 Card is too strong on non-terminals, but now you are guaranteeing that the target will be non-terminal.

Getting the effects before is easier to track.  Suppose you add a token to King's Court.  It's somewhat easier to count the effects as soon as you play the card rather than trying to remember to resolve it at the end of the chain.  It gets even more confusing if tokens somehow get added to cards in the middle of chains, because the effects should have been locked in when the card was first played but now you might not remember what tokens were that at the beginning.

+Buy alone is sometimes weak, but not always.  The idea was that an event would give you a choice of tokens, not a specific event for each token.  That said, putting together +$1, +1 Buy is more reasonable than adding a full cantrip to a card. :P

I don't like "Gain a Silver" that much as an idea for a token, but I don't know why.

Exploration Ship -- Proper wording is "return it to the Supply".

Treacherous Swamp -- Interesting concept, but I'm unsure about the execution.  This starts off as a $4 Duchy but it's near guaranteed to be worth only 2VP at the end.  In most games, you can expect that your opponents will collectively gain at least 2 Provinces, thus removing both tokens from the card.  So it's just a $4 2VP card in most games that sometimes costs $5 in the late game, and might be worth 3VP in exceptional circumstances.  That's not that great.

Grandfather's Trail Mix -- Weird but interesting.  I don't know how it would actually play out, though I expect it to be pretty weak.  First play buffs Gold for the other players and hands out a Curse, but then they just bump the token down for each play.  That doesn't seem like a big penalty.  At the very least, you are safe for two more attacks at least.  I can move the token from Gold to Silver (and have all my Silver be better than Gold!) and then later move the token from Silver to Copper.

That kind of buff to treasures makes me think that there needs to be a restriction against putting the tokens onto treasures.  Or maybe the events all just need to cost more, I don't know.



As to how the tokens come into the game, it really depends on how exactly Events are implemented.  Invention is fine, but you probably only buy that once a game (or twice, if you have two such tokens available).  Sometimes it might be a good idea to drop the token on one card for the early game before switching to another, but I'd expect the opportunity cost to be too much; better to pick one target wisely and stick with it.

I am still following the Event model described in the OP.  My idea is to have a few events that let you choose from all 10 (distinct) tokens, but with various twists.  Some examples:

Quote
Ingenuity
$4 - Event
Move one of your Progress tokens in the Supply.

The straight foward one.  You can add, move or remove a token.  Easy.  For terminology, let's say that unused tokens are "in the Supply" and it's just a question of whether they are on a card or not.  If not, they simply aren't active.

Quote
Reinforcements
$3 - Event
Choose one: put a card from your hand onto your Reserve mat; or add a Progress token to a card on your Reserve mat.

In games using this, Progress token bonuses on cards on your Reserve mat act as if those cards were in the Supply.

This wording could really use some tightening up.  It's a lot like the first event, but it puts the tokens on cards on your Reserve mat instead of cards in the Supply.  Again, this is based on my idea that the Reserve mat turns cards into something like permanent durations that you can trigger when you want.  Putting a regular (non-Reserve) card on the mat would confer that same advantage -- you can play it from the mat whenever you want, for free. 

I'm not sure whether that effect alone is too good for $3.  I think it should be fine; it costs you $3 and a buy to get a card onto your mat in the first place, and it only lets you take cards from your hand.  That's a good deal of opportunity cost already.  I think it would be OK even if this allowed you to put Victory cards on the mat, as an on-buy Island effect.

As for the Progress tokens themselves, this has some significant differences from the first event:

- you can keep the effect even if the Supply pile empties
- you lose one copy of the target card because it has to stay on your Reserve mat forever
- you have an option to play that card from the Reserve, at which point you would lose the Progress bonuses on it

The choice to put a card on the Reserve mat is there just to guarantee that there is a way for cards to get onto the mat.

Quote
Barracks
$3 - Event
Choose one: put a card from your hand onto your Reserve mat; or move 1 of your Progress tokens from the Supply onto your Reserve mat.

In games using this, trigger all Progress tokens on your Reserve mat when you play a card from the Reserve.

Instead of affecting all copies of one specific card, this event lets you give a bonus to all cards played from the Reserve.  Straight forward, I think.

Quote
Provisions
$4 - Event
Move 2 of your Progress tokens from the Supply onto your Reserve mat.

In games using this, Progress tokens on your Reserve mat can be played as if they were cards, then returned to the Supply.

Again, my wording here is not great.  This event uses the tokens as one-time bonuses, making them more akin to coin tokens.  If there is a "+$1" Progress token, it would be almost identical to coin tokens.  The difference is that this one can be spent during your action phase.

Note that if the 2 random Events are Barracks and Provisions, they would interact.  Provisions lets you more efficiently put tokens onto your mat and still get the Barracks bonus.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 07:16:40 pm by eHalcyon »
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2015, 06:09:08 am »
+1

Adding +1 Card and +1 Action together seems way too good.  You said +1 Card is too strong on non-terminals, but now you are guaranteeing that the target will be non-terminal.
I know this is crazy strong. But the token's effect itself is much safer to balance if it is the whole cantrip. Both effects on themselves would be very swingy (board dependent).

Getting the effects before is easier to track.  Suppose you add a token to King's Court.  It's somewhat easier to count the effects as soon as you play the card rather than trying to remember to resolve it at the end of the chain.  It gets even more confusing if tokens somehow get added to cards in the middle of chains, because the effects should have been locked in when the card was first played but now you might not remember what tokens were that at the beginning.
So there are 2 possible routes. My idea is that you can't mock with the tokens during the Action phase to avoid chain confusions.
If there is a card that lets you move the tokens on play that is worth it, your solution should be better.
The advantage of my solution is that it makes more sense to draw 1 card after you played Pearl Diver, Vagrant, Library, Mystic or Minion. Maybe Tactician is an issue (but wait, Reserve cards could also let you draw cards after playing Tactician...).

I don't like "Gain a Silver" that much as an idea for a token, but I don't know why.
It is the Big Money token, the JoaT token. Not so good for Engines, but I'd like to see tokens that help in different strategies.
And it takes only 3 words!

Treacherous Swamp -- Interesting concept, but I'm unsure about the execution.  This starts off as a $4 Duchy but it's near guaranteed to be worth only 2VP at the end.  In most games, you can expect that your opponents will collectively gain at least 2 Provinces, thus removing both tokens from the card.  So it's just a $4 2VP card in most games that sometimes costs $5 in the late game, and might be worth 3VP in exceptional circumstances.  That's not that great.

Grandfather's Trail Mix -- Weird but interesting.  I don't know how it would actually play out, though I expect it to be pretty weak.  First play buffs Gold for the other players and hands out a Curse, but then they just bump the token down for each play.  That doesn't seem like a big penalty.  At the very least, you are safe for two more attacks at least.  I can move the token from Gold to Silver (and have all my Silver be better than Gold!) and then later move the token from Silver to Copper.

That kind of buff to treasures makes me think that there needs to be a restriction against putting the tokens onto treasures.  Or maybe the events all just need to cost more, I don't know.

For Treacherous Swamp, I meant it to be 2 tokens each. So you buy 4 VP for $3 first, but if other players buy 4 Provinces, it is 2 VP for $5. Scaling for different player numbers works badly here. Maybe this should be a direct attack to your neighbor?

Quote
Treacherous Swamp (Victory) $5
Worth 2 VP.
______________________
Setup: All players put 2 "Worth 1 VP" and 2 "Costs $1 less" tokens on this pile.
When a player gains a Province, the player to his left removes one token from this pile.

If we restrict the Progess tokens on Action piles (why should you be able to add +1 Action on a Victory or Treasure?), Grandfather's Trail Mix would be a bit meaner this way:
Quote
Grandfather's Trail Mix (Action-Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player chooses one of his Progress tokens and moves it to a cheaper Action card pile.
If he doesn't, he puts a "+$1 +1 Buy" token on any Action card pile and gains a Curse.

I'm not a fan of putting the Progress tokens onto the Reserve mat. The tokens are colored, so they are meant to go on supply piles. Everything that goes on the Reserve mat should be cards in my opinion. I mean, Wagoner from th OP is also like a +1 Action token.
I like that whenever a Progress token card gets too strong and you buy many of them, you risk loosing the effect if the pile gets empty. This is especially neat on Exploration Ship since you increase its supply pile every time you bump it up.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2015, 06:13:59 pm »
+1

I know this is crazy strong. But the token's effect itself is much safer to balance if it is the whole cantrip. Both effects on themselves would be very swingy (board dependent).

I don't think that's true.  You just need to balance for the stronger situations, though not necessarily the strongest.  Sometimes they'll be too expensive to be worth it on a given board, but that's fine.  Sometimes they'll be really good despite the cost, and that's fine too. 

Variation in strength doesn't make them swingy.  Board dependence is not the same thing as swinginess.  Putting them together and making it one crazy strong token could actually make it swingier.  The game may swing on who is able to afford and leverage the token first, because getting it can upgrade a bunch of cards in your deck at once, making it a much bigger deal than the first Goons or KC, or even the first connected Tournament (which is considered one of the swingier things in Dominion).

It is the Big Money token, the JoaT token. Not so good for Engines, but I'd like to see tokens that help in different strategies.
And it takes only 3 words!

Since they are mere tokens, I figure that they would have to use pure iconography instead of words anyway, maybe with a reference chart printed on the Reserve Mats. 

I think my problem with "gain a silver" as token is that it is deceptively powerful.  Add it to almost any card and that card is essentially better than Explorer. :P

For Treacherous Swamp, I meant it to be 2 tokens each. So you buy 4 VP for $3 first, but if other players buy 4 Provinces, it is 2 VP for $5. Scaling for different player numbers works badly here. Maybe this should be a direct attack to your neighbor?

Quote
Treacherous Swamp (Victory) $5
Worth 2 VP.
______________________
Setup: All players put 2 "Worth 1 VP" and 2 "Costs $1 less" tokens on this pile.
When a player gains a Province, the player to his left removes one token from this pile.

If we restrict the Progess tokens on Action piles (why should you be able to add +1 Action on a Victory or Treasure?), Grandfather's Trail Mix would be a bit meaner this way:
Quote
Grandfather's Trail Mix (Action-Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player chooses one of his Progress tokens and moves it to a cheaper Action card pile.
If he doesn't, he puts a "+$1 +1 Buy" token on any Action card pile and gains a Curse.

Ahh, I see that on Treacherous Swamp now.  I think the problem is that it's a "win more" card in 2p.  Alt VPs are nice for providing an alternative path to victory, a way to win even if you fall behind on Provinces/Colonies.  This Swamp doesn't do that.  It might be more interesting if you reversed one part of it -- each other player adds a token when you gain a Province, or you only remove a token when you yourself gain a Province.

I'm still not sure about Grandfather's Trail Mix, and that's because it still sounds too weak to me.  I think "+$1, +1 Buy" is still a really nice addition, and it's not too tough to play around it.  I would very rarely buy it, and would usually be happy if an opponent bought it.  I think the free token placement would be worth far more than the penalty of a few Curses trickling in slowly.

I'm not a fan of putting the Progress tokens onto the Reserve mat. The tokens are colored, so they are meant to go on supply piles. Everything that goes on the Reserve mat should be cards in my opinion. I mean, Wagoner from th OP is also like a +1 Action token.
I like that whenever a Progress token card gets too strong and you buy many of them, you risk loosing the effect if the pile gets empty. This is especially neat on Exploration Ship since you increase its supply pile every time you bump it up.

The tokens are coloured so they can go on Supply piles and be counted for each individual player, but that doesn't mean they can't be used for other things.  Using them with the Reserve mat has different trade-offs.  Losing the card from your deck to keep the bonus is a big deal, and getting cards onto the mat can have opportunity cost too (especially if you are using those events to do it, rather than using actual Reserve cards).

I do think your Exploration Ship is neat.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2015, 01:34:15 pm »
0

So, after some time thinking about it, I'd do these tokens twice each:


+1 Card.

+1 Action.

+$1 +1 Buy.

Gain a Duchy.

Gain a copy of this.


I expect some wackier things (hey, it's Donald, there must be wacky things). Therefore and to make all effects on play, the "Worth 1 VP" and "costs $1 less" changed into gainers. Maybe it could be "Instead of playing this, gain a copy of this" as well. But I still think the tokens shouldn't get too complex. And the piles can run out quickly.


I've updated the OP and added a new Wagoner card:

Quote
Fair (Action) $2
+1 Action
+$1
Every time you put a Wagoner into play this turn, +1 Card.

When you discard this from play, for each unused Action, gain a Wagoner from the Wagoner pile.
Note, Wagoner is still like this:
Quote
Wagoner (Action - Reserve) 0*
When you put this into play, +1 Action and return this to the Wagoner pile.
(This is not part of the supply.)

Will add new Events and more token cards later.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2015, 06:39:04 pm »
0

As there are 50 cards left to use in the set (minus Victory extra copies, minus Wagoner), there should be some more extra stuff. If we've got player colors, something like that comes into my mind:

Quote
Courier (Action - Attack) $5

+2 Cards
Each other player gains an Offering in your color from the Offering pile.
Quote
Offering (Action) $0*
Gain a Silver.
Player Blue draws 2 cards.
Return this to the Offering pile.
(This is not in the supply.)

There would be 5 Offerings in 6 colors, i.e. 30 Offerings. So yet enough space for 16 Wagoners and 2 VP cards!
Alternately, those extra cards could be used to go onto the Reserve tableau forever for permanent effects...



I've got 17 Events currently. Any other ideas?


Quote
Market Day (Event) $1
The first time you play this in your turn, +2 Buys.
Quote
Manipulation (Event - Attack) $1
Each other player reveals the top card of his deck and discards it if it costs $2 or more and is not a Victory card.
Quote
Wagoner (Event) $2
Gain a Wagoner from the Wagoner pile. Play it.
Quote
Survey (Event) $2
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck and discard any number of them. Put the rest back in any order.
Quote
Ball (Event) $2
Look through your discard pile. Put a card from it on top of your deck.
Quote
Round Table (Event) $2
+1 Buy. Put your deck into your discard pile.
Quote
Offering (Event - Attack) $3
Each other player gains an Offering in your color from the Offering pile.
Quote
Carriage (Event) $3
Place one of your +1 Action tokens on an Action pile in the supply.
Quote
Invention (Event) $3
Place one of your +1 Card tokens on an Action pile in the supply.
Quote
Treaty (Event) $3
Place one of your +$1 +1 Buy tokens on an Action pile in the supply.
Quote
Accolade (Event) $3
Place one of your Gain a Duchy tokens on an Action pile in the supply.
Quote
Scholar (Event) $3
Place one of your Gain a copy of this tokens on an Action pile in the supply.
Quote
Remodeling (Event) $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Quote
Holy Mass (Event) $4
Trash any number of cards you have in play.
Quote
Expedition (Event) $4
During this cleanup phase, draw 2 additional cards.
Quote
Reserve (Event) $4
When you discard an Action card from play during this Cleanup phase, put it on your Reserve tableau.

When an Action card is on your Reserve tableau that is not a Reserve card, you may play it during your Action phase (for free).
Quote
Damnation (Event - Attack) $5
Each other player gains a Curse card.
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crlundy

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2015, 07:27:47 pm »
+1

Tbh there was so much written by the time I got here, I didn't read it all. But I love speculating, and here are some random thoughts on things that stuck out to me.

+1 Card.

+1 Action.

+$1 +1 Buy.

Gain a Duchy.

Gain a copy of this.
I think these are unlikely, because they remind me of Ruins, which are "bad" cards. I think/hope the tokens do something more original and exciting, although these are very simple and Donald likes simple. Gaining a Duchy in particular I think is very unlikely. See the Hinterlands outtakes about a Victory card that came with a Duchy. Running out 2 piles at once was no good, so Border Village gets around this by letting you pick a variety of piles to gain from.

Since I skimmed through this I might be wrong, but I think my impression of Events was different. I imagined Events weren't going to be like the other Dominion cards. Sure the information will probably be on cards, but they won't go in decks or come from the Supply -- I'm thinking like a different card frame and everything. I feel like they'll be able to be used in any game (even ones without Adventure cards), like Platinum/Colony in Prosperty-less game, although the rules may suggest some condition to include them. Therefore I feel like they won't need particular Kingdom cards to trigger them. Without thinking this through, here's a rough idea:

  • In games using Events, randomly shuffle together some of the Events (probably same as the number of Curses you use). You know, Donald and Dominion are big on variety.
  • Events might be things like "Victory cards cost $1 more", "All players start their turns with +$1", "Pay $6 during your Buy phase so each player gains a Curse". (Obv not Dominion-wording.)
  • Then each event has a trigger for when you discard it/put it on the bottom and reveal the next Event. I dunno, maybe "when a player buys a Victory card", "a player may pay $5", or in the case of the last example above, just when it happens.
  • Some Events would probably also reference these tokens and idk how exactly they might be used. Initial thoughts are that they go on piles and do things like "copies cost $1 less for you, $1 more for them" (since that was an outtake card, but this would become more complicated when multiple colors of tokens are on a pile, so it'd probably be something simpler).

Reserve cards I imagined just being like normal that sit around on your Reserve mat when you buy them until you want to play them. Basically like Activation cards but rather than sitting in play, they sit on a mat. Maybe you pay a cost to get to play it, or the benefit is simply getting to use it whenever you want, or maybe some do something cool while it's on your mat but some other awesome one-shot thing so you're like "do I lose this lasting ability to use this awesome thing once?" But if that's the first thing I think of, then it's probably not right. Plus the playtesters seem to tease Reserve cards more than the Durations and Events, so I feel like they must be particularly inventive or exciting (as in, not the idea I just suggested).

Ugh, I feel less confident about my guesses as I reread them. I'm sure parts of this are embarrassingly wrong but if anything is in the realm of resembling something from Adventures, I will feel accomplished. I'm guessing (hoping?) there will be a Durations preview, a Reserves preview, a tokens preview, and an Events preview so we can get all our questions answered.
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crlundy

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2015, 07:34:13 pm »
+2

* Please note the above post is not by eHalcyon :P
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2015, 07:39:22 pm »
+2

The Adventures blurb states that Events are things you can buy that are not cards. They are not the kind of global-effect events which were being considered for Intrigue. I believe I suggested that these Adventures things be called "Events", so you can blame me for the confusion if you like.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2015, 07:57:20 pm »
+2

These cards are called Events, but you're saying they don't have a global effect? Nothing makes sense anymore and I am so confused! Why did you do this to me, LastFootnote, whyyyyyyyyyyy?
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crlundy

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2015, 12:25:59 am »
0

I already voted in that other thread that I was most excited for Events because I didn't know how they'd work. And now I have even less of an idea how they work and I love it. :)

So if they're not cards, then how is the information presented? I know they may not be cards like the Kingdom, but I imagine the rules for each Event will appear on some kind of reference card.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2015, 03:04:17 pm »
0

So if they're not cards, then how is the information presented? I know they may not be cards like the Kingdom, but I imagine the rules for each Event will appear on some kind of reference card.
Events are things you can buy that are not cards.

I'm still quite confident in what I guessed.

"Play with 2 random Event cards if one randomly drawn card of the kingdom is from Adventures.
Events can be bought like the other cards, but instead of gaining them, you immediately play them (they are not considered "in play" though). Events can never be gained."

So basically an Event would be a one-time Action that you buy and do it immediately. Like "trash cards you have in play", or "draw more cards this Cleanup", or "put a token of your color on a pile".
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crlundy

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2015, 03:31:33 pm »
0

Events are things you can buy that are not cards.
I'm still quite confident in what I guessed. ... Events can be bought like the other cards ...
This is the contradiction I can't reconcile.

But maybe I'm just being pedantic and we're actually all on the same page, i.e. we think Events will be printed on cards and the playtesters are just emphasizing that they aren't "compatible" with cards we've seen before.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2015, 06:15:59 pm »
0

I thought we had already reached the conclusion that Events were basically "effects" you could buy, sort of like when-you-buy one-shots. But maybe I'm misremembering?
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chipperMDW

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2015, 06:27:41 pm »
+3

Events are things you can buy that are not cards.
I'm still quite confident in what I guessed. ... Events can be bought like the other cards ...
This is the contradiction I can't reconcile.

But maybe I'm just being pedantic and we're actually all on the same page, i.e. we think Events will be printed on cards and the playtesters are just emphasizing that they aren't "compatible" with cards we've seen before.
I figure Events will be cards only in the sense that the Trash Pile Card is a card. They won't be cards in the sense of things that go into your deck during a game. I'm guessing they'll be printed with different backs, too.

By the way, the Adventures blurb actually says that Event cards give you something to buy besides cards. Which isn't confusing at all.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2015, 06:42:23 pm »
+2

Events are things you can buy that are not cards.
I'm still quite confident in what I guessed. ... Events can be bought like the other cards ...
This is the contradiction I can't reconcile.

But maybe I'm just being pedantic and we're actually all on the same page, i.e. we think Events will be printed on cards and the playtesters are just emphasizing that they aren't "compatible" with cards we've seen before.
I figure Events will be cards only in the sense that the Trash Pile Card is a card. They won't be cards in the sense of things that go into your deck during a game. I'm guessing they'll be printed with different backs, too.

By the way, the Adventures blurb actually says that Event cards give you something to buy besides cards. Which isn't confusing at all.

And my guess from that was that the Event cards let you buy various effects, including tokens that can modify your cards' effects.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2015, 07:14:52 am »
+1

Any thoughts on this?

As there are 50 cards left to use in the set (minus Victory extra copies, minus Wagoner), there should be some more extra stuff. If we've got player colors, something like that comes into my mind:

Quote
Courier (Action - Attack) $5

+2 Cards
Each other player gains an Offering in your color from the Offering pile.
Quote
Offering (Action) $0*
Gain a Silver.
Player Blue draws 2 cards.
Return this to the Offering pile.
(This is not in the supply.)

There would be 5 Offerings in 6 colors, i.e. 30 Offerings. So yet enough space for 16 Wagoners and 2 VP cards!
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2015, 07:57:08 am »
+2

Strictly weaker than witch.

I would make Offering "weaker", and drop the price of courier. For example, put courier at 4$, and make Offering nonterminal and give only 1 card to the Courier player.

With only 5 offerings, it doesn't seem like Courier scales very well with number of players, no?

The concept is very interesting, though.
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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2015, 08:01:09 am »
0

Strictly weaker than witch.

Not in Herald games.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2015, 08:31:08 am »
0

Strictly weaker than witch.

Not in Herald games.

I scorned the power of the thrice-accursed Forbidden Word, and now I am striken down for my Hubris.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2015, 12:52:06 pm »
0

I wanted to make Offerings feel like a deal, so that the player who plays it also gets a benefit for letting the Attacker draw. Turning a dead card into a Silver sounded good to me. Maybe it should be a one time thing though.
What about just:

Quote
Offering (Action) $0*
For you and Player Blue, +2 Cards.
Return this to the Offering pile.
(This is not in the supply.)
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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2015, 01:13:52 pm »
0

It doesn't matter what Offering does. The other players can always choose not to play it, ever. In that case, Offering is basically Confusion. So Courier is, at best, a Witch that hands out confusions instead of curses. But it's even worse than that, because Offering gives a choice to the other players, while Confusion doesn't, it's just dead in your hand.

Unless the other players were somehow forced to play Offering, it doesn't matter what Offering does, Courier will still be "nearly" strictly worse than Witch. That's why I argue for making Offering more attractive for the other players, and drop Courier's cost to 4$.

The problem of how this scales with the number of players still remains, though. I kind of understand why you want to keep the number of Offerings low, but I am not sure it's enough.
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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2015, 07:34:02 pm »
+3

Offering could have a different backside, in player color. When somebody starts his turn with it, the colored player draws a card.

I like the idea to give out player colored cards that give that player an advantage. No, more, i think it's brilliant.

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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2015, 08:28:20 am »
0

Offering could have a different backside, in player color. When somebody starts his turn with it, the colored player draws a card.

I like the idea to give out player colored cards that give that player an advantage. No, more, i think it's brilliant.
Thanks!

A different backside sounds good as well. For fairness, maybe it should trigger when such a card is drawn from the deck, i.e. also during their turn. That disencourages players to go for engines, though.

It doesn't matter what Offering does. The other players can always choose not to play it, ever. In that case, Offering is basically Confusion. So Courier is, at best, a Witch that hands out confusions instead of curses. But it's even worse than that, because Offering gives a choice to the other players, while Confusion doesn't, it's just dead in your hand.

Unless the other players were somehow forced to play Offering, it doesn't matter what Offering does, Courier will still be "nearly" strictly worse than Witch. That's why I argue for making Offering more attractive for the other players, and drop Courier's cost to 4$.

The problem of how this scales with the number of players still remains, though. I kind of understand why you want to keep the number of Offerings low, but I am not sure it's enough.

Now I understand. Sure my first attempt to Courier fits better into the $4 class.

With 6 player colors, you need quite a bunch Offering cards. 5 per color is the absolute minimum, so you can hand out at least one to each other player. These are 30 cards, and 30 cards equals almost 3 kingdom card slots! That's how Donald calculates. The maximum would be 8 per color, so 48 cards total.

What is the scaling problem? In 2p, you can play more "successful" Couriers. So you can hurt the other player more. In 6p, only the first Courier is totally "successful" but the other players will get more Offering cards from each other anyway. With more players, you'd benefit from Offerings slightly more frequently. The only real problem might be that, in multiplayer, the left neighbor will get most of your Offerings because they weren't all returned yet. But that's not huge, the same is true for Ambassador -> Ruins.
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Re: Dominion: Adventures^^
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2015, 08:42:49 am »
+2

Sorry, i think i didn't think this through. Because, while the card doesn't tell you that you can shuffle it where you want (like with Stash), nothing keeps you from doing it if it has a different backside. You can just keep on shuffeling until it is where you want it. So i guess my idea doesn't really work.

It would be okay as an online promo, but for a physical solution a different backside would have to come either with a Stash ability, or tell you to shuffle eyes closed. Another option: You could have the colored player stack his cards in your deck - but of course that takes way longer and makes the colored player going last to arrange his cards have an advantage over other colored players.

Sorry this idea wasn't as great as i thought it would be.
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