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Author Topic: Dominion: Pestilence  (Read 39943 times)

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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2015, 03:52:02 am »
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Gain two bad things as fodder when gaining a $4 card? That seems... established.

This is nicer though, since Death Cart's Ruins don't always collide.

Correct, but they do instantly hurt you and you have to wait til next shuffle before the chance to use Hospital.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2015, 08:30:37 pm »
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Gain two bad things as fodder when gaining a $4 card? That seems... established.

This is nicer though, since Death Cart's Ruins don't always collide.

Correct, but they do instantly hurt you and you have to wait til next shuffle before the chance to use Hospital.

To be clear, I'm not saying that it's a flaw that Hospital's junk is better than Death Cart's junk.  I'm just noting the fact.

The plague token effect actually won't hurt at all with Hospital, at least at first, because you'll be buying Hospitals early and using those tokens to trash down long before you get to greening.  It gets interesting later though.  Your first 3 Hospitals would get you 6 plague tokens which let you trash 6 cards, but the next one would leave you with an extra Plague token if the game doesn't otherwise have junking.  So do you stop at 3 Hospitals, or do you trash something decent, or do you buy more fodder to get rid of the extra plague tokens?  Junking and plague-giving cards add other factors to consider.  It's an interesting tension.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2015, 04:04:05 am »
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Gain two bad things as fodder when gaining a $4 card? That seems... established.

This is nicer though, since Death Cart's Ruins don't always collide.

Correct, but they do instantly hurt you and you have to wait til next shuffle before the chance to use Hospital.

To be clear, I'm not saying that it's a flaw that Hospital's junk is better than Death Cart's junk.  I'm just noting the fact.

The plague token effect actually won't hurt at all with Hospital, at least at first, because you'll be buying Hospitals early and using those tokens to trash down long before you get to greening.  It gets interesting later though.  Your first 3 Hospitals would get you 6 plague tokens which let you trash 6 cards, but the next one would leave you with an extra Plague token if the game doesn't otherwise have junking.  So do you stop at 3 Hospitals, or do you trash something decent, or do you buy more fodder to get rid of the extra plague tokens?  Junking and plague-giving cards add other factors to consider.  It's an interesting tension.

It depends on your strategy as there may be alt VP cards which you want earlier in the game....Nobles, Harem, Feodum etc. You are still paying one more per plague token for all those cards.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2015, 10:53:30 am »
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I can't imagine that a single leftover Copper could ever hurt enough that you would consider both wasting a buy AND trashing a card you wouldn't otherwise trash just to get rid of it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2015, 12:15:13 pm »
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I can't imagine that a single leftover Copper could ever hurt enough that you would consider both wasting a buy AND trashing a card you wouldn't otherwise trash just to get rid of it.

You might want the extra village though.

@Vislor, for most alt VP rush strategies you would skip Hospital.  You don't need trashing as much, and often wouldn't need villages either.  Nobles may be the exception, as it does have a place as an engine component.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2015, 12:42:28 pm »
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Either way, i don't see a reason why Hospital and Death Cart shouldn't be allowed to have differently "good" junk. The cards are vastly different, anyhow.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2015, 12:46:43 pm »
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Either way, i don't see a reason why Hospital and Death Cart shouldn't be allowed to have differently "good" junk. The cards are vastly different, anyhow.

Yes, exactly.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2015, 10:15:04 am »
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Am rethinking about Surgeon now. Is this too good?

Surgeon $6 - ACTION

$2. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain 1VP token per $ it costs or 2VP tokens if it has a potion in its cost.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2015, 04:43:44 pm »
+2

Am rethinking about Surgeon now. Is this too good?

Surgeon $6 - ACTION

$2. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain 1VP token per $ it costs or 2VP tokens if it has a potion in its cost.

The Potion clause is unnecessary complexity; it only applies to Vineyards and nobody who goes to the trouble of buying Vineyards is going to trash it for just 2VP.

This is more effective than Bishop for both coin and VP gaining, but it is restricted to VP cards only.  Balance-wise, I think it is fine testing as is (minus the Potion clause).  But the card is not that interesting because of how similar it is to Bishop.  The original was at least set apart by returning cards to the Supply, which has a different impact on games.  But you correctly noted that it would slow the game down a lot.  I noted afterwards that trashing instead would just make it too similar to Bishop, and that still holds here.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2015, 08:44:27 am »
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Am rethinking about Surgeon now. Is this too good?

Surgeon $6 - ACTION

$2. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain 1VP token per $ it costs or 2VP tokens if it has a potion in its cost.

The Potion clause is unnecessary complexity; it only applies to Vineyards and nobody who goes to the trouble of buying Vineyards is going to trash it for just 2VP.

This is more effective than Bishop for both coin and VP gaining, but it is restricted to VP cards only.  Balance-wise, I think it is fine testing as is (minus the Potion clause).  But the card is not that interesting because of how similar it is to Bishop.  The original was at least set apart by returning cards to the Supply, which has a different impact on games.  But you correctly noted that it would slow the game down a lot.  I noted afterwards that trashing instead would just make it too similar to Bishop, and that still holds here.

Ok I'll take out the potion clause. I still think there's a space for this card, if used well it is much better than Bishop and I don't see the problem with similar cards. I mean, look how many village cards there are in the game. It's not a problem for me, even if (statistically unlikely) both Bishop and Surgeon crop up in the same game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2015, 12:43:46 pm »
+1

There are lots of villages because there needs to be a reasonable chance of having +actions come up in a random kingdom. Likewise for other vanilla cards.  More specialized cards don't get repeated so much.  Notice how the three existing VP token cards ate all very different.  Notice how only one card is untrashable even though the Fortress clause could easily be slapped onto other vanilla cards.

It's fine to try though, certainly.  Just not that interesting.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2015, 09:19:28 am »
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Ok, but I think the difference here comes with how it really encourages you to trash Victory cards. Bishop doesn't really do that because you are getting fewer VPs for trashing them than they are worth. That's why I think this card works well opposite Bishop.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #112 on: March 20, 2015, 09:40:01 am »
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Ok, but I think the difference here comes with how it really encourages you to trash Victory cards. Bishop doesn't really do that because you are getting fewer VPs for trashing them than they are worth. That's why I think this card works well opposite Bishop.

Well, it works equally well for Estates, which are the VP cards most commonly trashed.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #113 on: March 20, 2015, 10:15:48 am »
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Ok, but I think the difference here comes with how it really encourages you to trash Victory cards. Bishop doesn't really do that because you are getting fewer VPs for trashing them than they are worth. That's why I think this card works well opposite Bishop.

Well, it works equally well for Estates, which are the VP cards most commonly trashed.

But with surgeon in the game, trashing Duchies and Provinces not only gets them out your deck but boosts the VP count as well.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #114 on: March 20, 2015, 12:27:05 pm »
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Ok, but I think the difference here comes with how it really encourages you to trash Victory cards. Bishop doesn't really do that because you are getting fewer VPs for trashing them than they are worth. That's why I think this card works well opposite Bishop.

Bishop is fine for trashing most VP cards.  You lose a VP on Province, but that's usually worthwhile.  And Bishop can be used on other cards as well.  Compared to Surgeon, Bishop gets you equal value on Estates and additional value on Coppers and other junk while costing less, plus the option to cannibalize other parts of your deck for more points in the end game. Surgeon gives greater return on other VP and no benefit to opponents.

But it doesn't really explore new strategy space.  Any strategy where you use Surgeon can be done about as well with Bishop. You get extra points on Duchy and Province and alt VP, but that only lets it catch up to Bishop's points from teaching other things.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #115 on: March 25, 2015, 06:51:14 am »
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Am now trying Surgeon with +2 coin tokens instead of $.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #116 on: March 25, 2015, 06:57:25 am »
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So...after playtesting hospital, I concede it is too good at $4 so will make it $5. The best option might actually have been to make it overpay for plague tokens, but I don't like that thematically so am just going for the gain 2 plague on buy. But, hold on, what about underpay, could that be an interesting strategy?

Hospital $3- - ACTION

+1 card. +2 actions. Discard one of your plague tokens. If you do trash a card from your hand.
_________________________________________________________

When you buy this you may underpay for it to a minimum of $0. If you do, gain a plague token per $1 you underpaid.


Or is that just way too crazy good?!

Maybe +1 card. +1 action?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 07:00:20 am by Vislor »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2015, 12:45:10 pm »
+1

When you buy this card, you actually want plague tokens to fuel trashing.  Making the card cheaper should give you a penalty, not a bonus.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #118 on: April 08, 2015, 07:33:46 am »
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UPDATE

Dominion: Pestilence

The following rules and cards are in play every time you use at least one card which would give plague tokens from Pestilence.

There are 72 plague tokens.

Each plague token you carry adds $1 to the cost of buying all victory cards.

You can only have a maximum of 12 plague tokens. If you would be forced to go above 12 plague tokens instead gain a curse. You can only be forced to gain a curse once per turn in this way.

Privy $0* – ACTION (this is not in the supply)

+1 Action. When you play this return it to the privy pile. Discard one of your plague tokens.
__________________________________________________________________________________
During your buy phase you may gain one privy for free without using up a buy.

Diseases $0* – DURATION ATTACK (this is not in the supply)

Deck of ten different cards. Shuffle and place face up. If you have 6 or more plague tokens at the end of your turn you gain the top disease. It goes directly into your play area and takes effect from the start of your next turn. It is not discarded during cleanup. At the start of each of your turns you may gain a plague token, if you do carry out the attack. This does not use up an ACTION. If you already have a disease you cannot gain a new disease. If there is already a Disease in play when you acquire one, the Disease already in play is then put to the bottom of the Diseases pile and that player discards all their plague tokens. Thus only one Disease is allowed in play at one time. The Disease is not an ACTION TREASURE or VICTORY card. It does go into your deck at the end of the game.

Pox – Each other player gains a plague token.

Bubonic Plague – Each other player gains 2 plague tokens.

Syphilis – Each other player gains a curse and a plague token.

Leprosy – Each other player with 4 or more cards discards a card. They also gain a plague token.

Dysentery – Each other player gains a privy and a plague token.

Gout – Each other player gains an Estate and a plague token.

Typhoid – Each other player discards a treasure card or reveals a hand with no treasures. They also gain a plague token.

Famine - Each other player gains a copper and a plague token.

Rickets – Each other player discards an action card or reveals a hand with no actions. They also gain a plague token.

Tapeworm – While this is in play each other player gets +1 buy this turn but trashes the first thing they buy costing at least $1. They also gain a plague token.



And now, the cards!!!

Doomsday Book $0* - ACTION

+2 Actions. Trash this. Draw a card for each plague token you have. This costs $1 per plague token you have.

Flea $1 - ACTION REACTION (20 card supply deck)

+2 Actions.
_________________________________________________________________________________
When you play this gain a Flea. When you discard this other than during cleanup it jumps to the player on your left's discard pile. When you trash this discard one of your plague tokens.

Contaminate $2 – ACTION

+$1. +1 buy. Place a plague token from the supply onto a supply deck of your choice. When a player gains a card if there are any plague tokens on it he gains one of them.

Quack $2 - ACTION INFECTION

+$1. You may gain a plague token. Everyone passes one of their plague tokens to the left. You may discard one of your plague tokens.

Astrologer $3 - ACTION

+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put the named cards into your hand and the rest back in any order.

Bath House $3 – VICTORY TREASURE

1VP. $1. When you gain this discard half of your plague tokens (round up).

Church $3 - ACTION DURATION REACTION

+1 card. Now and next turn +1 buy. Draw an extra card in this turn’s cleanup phase.
__________________________________________________________________________________
If you are attacked while this is in play you may discard a card to be unaffected.

Amputation $4 – ACTION INFECTION

$3. Draw one less card after cleanup this turn.
__________________________________________________________________________________
When you gain this gain 1 plague token.

Barber $4 – ACTION INFECTION

+$1. +1 Plague token. You may discard up to 3 Plague tokens. While this is in play +1VP token when you discard a Plague token.

Leech $4 - ACTION ATTACK

+$1. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes one costing up to $4 that you choose. The rest are discarded. You may gain any or all of the trashed cards.

Town Crier $4 – ACTION

$2. Look at the top card of your deck. Either put it into your hand or discard it and each other player gains a copy.

Charity $5 – TREASURE ATTACK

$1. Each other player discards the top two cards of their deck. If they discard any treasure, place a coin token on the Charity mat. If they don't, they gain a plague token.
__________________________________________________________________________________
You may take a coin from the Charity mat.

Haemorrhage $5 - ACTION INFECTION

+1 Action. Name an Action, Treasure or Victory card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck and trash cards of that type until you reveal the named card. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest. Gain a plague token for every card you trashed.

Hospital $5 – ACTION INFECTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. Discard one of your plague tokens. If you did, trash a card from your hand.
__________________________________________________________________________________
When you gain this gain 2 plague tokens.

Infection $5 - ACTION ATTACK

+3 cards. Each other player gains a plague token.

Monastery $6 - ACTION

Reveal a non-treasure card from your hand costing up to $7. Gain a copy from the supply.

Surgeon $6 - ACTION

+2 coin tokens. You may trash a Victory Card from your hand. If you do, gain 1VP token per $ it costs.

Autopsy $7 - ACTION

+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Put one card from it into your hand.

Royal College of Physicians $7
– VICTORY

2VP for every 2 Golds in your deck.

The Black Death $8 - ACTION INFECTION

+2 buys. +2 plague tokens. During your buy phase +$2 per plague token you have. Discard the top 2 cards of your deck. If you discard 2 treasures, +2 plague tokens and at the end of your turn pass this to the player on your right's discard pile.
_________________________________________________________________________________
When you trash this everyone discards all their plague tokens.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 05:04:12 am by Vislor »
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #119 on: April 08, 2015, 07:41:20 am »
0

My favourite card:

Haemorrhage!
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #120 on: April 08, 2015, 07:50:26 am »
0

Btw Surgeon can also be awesome when you add $1 to the cost of Victory cards per plague token you have.

Which may mean it needs nerfed with a "remove all/some of your plague tokens" clause, but I'll playtest some more.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:15:27 am by Vislor »
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #121 on: April 09, 2015, 04:30:39 am »
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New card:

Witch Doctor $3 - ACTION REACTION

Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. When one of your cards is trashed you may reveal this. If you do, discard a plague token.


Not very exciting but I needed some more source of draw in the set.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #122 on: April 09, 2015, 08:06:14 pm »
0

New card:

Witch Doctor $3 - ACTION REACTION

Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. When one of your cards is trashed you may reveal this. If you do, discard a plague token.


Not very exciting but I needed some more source of draw in the set.

The reaction needs to go beneath a horizontal line.  Also, as written, Witch Doctor allows you to discard all plague tokens when just one card is trashed.  Remember, you are allowed to reveal the same reaction multiple times.  If you want to get around that, you need to discard or set aside the reaction.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2015, 04:49:19 am »
0

New card:

Witch Doctor $3 - ACTION REACTION

Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. When one of your cards is trashed you may reveal this. If you do, discard a plague token.


Not very exciting but I needed some more source of draw in the set.

The reaction needs to go beneath a horizontal line.  Also, as written, Witch Doctor allows you to discard all plague tokens when just one card is trashed.  Remember, you are allowed to reveal the same reaction multiple times.  If you want to get around that, you need to discard or set aside the reaction.

Oh well, I can just put you may reveal this once, can't I? BTW thanks for all your feedback as and when I post in this thread, v useful and insightful!
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2015, 05:01:37 am »
+3

Oh well, I can just put you may reveal this once, can't I?

No, because once you have revealed it, you put it back into your hand, and then you can reveal "another" one and there's no way to tell if or not it's the one you already revealed. It's going to look a bit suspicious at the point when you have revealed more copies of the card than you have cards in hand, though.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 05:04:19 am by Awaclus »
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