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Author Topic: Dominion: Pestilence  (Read 39948 times)

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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2015, 07:29:12 am »
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Being able to target only Copper makes Spice Merchant able to at best do 70% of the trashing job a full cantrip trasher can, and in the presence of junkers it can easily fall to 50% or less. Junk Dealer and anything along its lines can do 100% of that job, and that difference is worth more than Spice Merchant's little side benefits. Especially when junk like Estates and Curses are much worse than Copper.

Yeah, I know Junk Dealer's better, that's why it's a $5 cost card. It trashes something and effectively draws you a card and a copper every time you play it. Spice Merchant draws you 2 cards (which is better if you have more engine components to draw) and still trashes the junky copper card.

Bazaar is a good comparison here as well. Village costs $3. Bazaar costs $5. The only difference is the drawing of phantom copper which is attributed $2.

Remove Junk Dealer's phantom copper and you have can trip trasher - therefore remove the $2 attributed to that card. Can trip trasher should cost $3.

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2015, 07:37:41 am »
+2

Bazaar is a good comparison here as well. Village costs $3. Bazaar costs $5. The only difference is the drawing of phantom copper which is attributed $2.

Remove Junk Dealer's phantom copper and you have can trip trasher - therefore remove the $2 attributed to that card. Can trip trasher should cost $3.
*QI sirens*

The difference between Festival and Woodcutter is +2 Actions in effect, and +2$ in cost. Therefore each +Action adds $1 to the cost.

I'll do the same with Moat. Adding +2 Actions to Moat will obviously be balanced at $4... right?
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2015, 07:42:20 am »
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*QI sirens*

The difference between Festival and Woodcutter is +2 Actions in effect, and +2$ in cost. Therefore each +Action adds $1 to the cost.

I'll do the same with Moat. Adding +2 Actions to Moat will obviously be balanced at $4... right?

I didn't say anything about adding or removing actions...
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2015, 07:48:50 am »
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*QI sirens*

The difference between Festival and Woodcutter is +2 Actions in effect, and +2$ in cost. Therefore each +Action adds $1 to the cost.

I'll do the same with Moat. Adding +2 Actions to Moat will obviously be balanced at $4... right?

I didn't say anything about adding or removing actions...
The point is more general than that, though. A basic component doesn't add or subtract a fixed amount of worth from a card; it all depends on what the rest of the card does. +Coin is worth more on a village (which you can happily spam and run your engine off) than it is on a cantrip trasher (which you only want to play for as long as you have junk in your deck, and which you only want a couple of copies of), so your argument for cantrip trasher's costing $3 doesn't hold.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2015, 08:16:50 am »
+1

*QI sirens*

The difference between Festival and Woodcutter is +2 Actions in effect, and +2$ in cost. Therefore each +Action adds $1 to the cost.

I'll do the same with Moat. Adding +2 Actions to Moat will obviously be balanced at $4... right?

I didn't say anything about adding or removing actions...

Dry Oasis, $1
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard a card.

Also if you use Spice Merchant to trash a Copper and then buy another one, you played a terminal Silver. Wow, even Woodcutter can do better than that.

I really don't see why you don't just play a game or two. Try a cantrip trasher at $4. You will see how absurdly strong it is. Try another strong as the competition. Try Jack of All Trades. Try Sea Hag. See if they can compete with cantrip trashing. They can't.

I know what i'm talking about, i have tried to make a cantrip trasher work, myself. At one point it costed $2 but only entered your deck after your next reshuffle, which was still too good. By now it costs a Potion and trashes the Potion from play, which i hope will finally make it balanced.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #80 on: February 04, 2015, 08:28:10 am »
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Being able to target only Copper makes Spice Merchant able to at best do 70% of the trashing job a full cantrip trasher can, and in the presence of junkers it can easily fall to 50% or less. Junk Dealer and anything along its lines can do 100% of that job, and that difference is worth more than Spice Merchant's little side benefits. Especially when junk like Estates and Curses are much worse than Copper.

Yeah, I know Junk Dealer's better, that's why it's a $5 cost card. It trashes something and effectively draws you a card and a copper every time you play it. Spice Merchant draws you 2 cards (which is better if you have more engine components to draw) and still trashes the junky copper card.

Junk Dealer can always be played, whether it's a Copper, a Curse, a Ruins, a Shelter, and Estate, even if there's something in your hand you don't necessarily wanted to get rid of but don't really mind losing, either. Without a Copper or silver in hand, Spice Merchant is junk. And hey, guess i'll play Junk Dealer to get rid of it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2015, 10:29:53 am »
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Also if you use Spice Merchant to trash a Copper and then buy another one, you played a terminal Silver. Wow, even Woodcutter can do better than that.


Actually it's a terminal Copper. It would have to be a serious edge case where you ever want to use the +buy from Spice merchant to buy a Copper... You only buy Spice Merchant to get rid of Copper; you don't buy it as a half woodcutter, half-lab, and then buy coppers to feed it.
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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2015, 10:45:25 am »
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Being able to target only Copper makes Spice Merchant able to at best do 70% of the trashing job a full cantrip trasher can, and in the presence of junkers it can easily fall to 50% or less. Junk Dealer and anything along its lines can do 100% of that job, and that difference is worth more than Spice Merchant's little side benefits. Especially when junk like Estates and Curses are much worse than Copper.

Yeah, I know Junk Dealer's better, that's why it's a $5 cost card. It trashes something and effectively draws you a card and a copper every time you play it. Spice Merchant draws you 2 cards (which is better if you have more engine components to draw) and still trashes the junky copper card.

Bazaar is a good comparison here as well. Village costs $3. Bazaar costs $5. The only difference is the drawing of phantom copper which is attributed $2.

Remove Junk Dealer's phantom copper and you have can trip trasher - therefore remove the $2 attributed to that card. Can trip trasher should cost $3.
I didn't say anything about the coin; I'm talking about the trashing power itself. Any universal trasher, including a flat cantrip trasher, can trash 100% of the junk in your deck, while Spice Merchant can only trash up to 70% and the least troublesome 70% at that.

Cost scales are not that straightforward, either. Copper --> Silver is +$1 for a cost increase of $3. Gold --> Platinum is +$2 for a cost increase of $3. Market Square --> Market is +$1 for a cost increase of $2 but drops the Reaction effect in the process. Thief --> Noble Brigand is +$1 for the same cost, with the Attack changed a bit but generally for the better.

Also if you use Spice Merchant to trash a Copper and then buy another one, you played a terminal Silver. Wow, even Woodcutter can do better than that.
Not even that. You play Spice Merchant, trash a Copper, and use up the buy on another Copper so your deck composition is unaffected, you've just produced $2 with two cards and an action. That's the same as playing Abandoned Mine and a Copper.
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2015, 06:00:25 pm »
+2

There are only 2 instances in which I would use Spice Merchant's +$/+buy: either it's late in the game and I need the +$ or +buy, or it's early in the game and I'm not confident that +cards will fetch me the +$2 that I need to hit $5.

Spice Merchant is strong more because of its cantrip-ness and cycling than it is for its flexibility. Unlike Cantrip Trasher, it can't trash Estates, which is actually pretty huge. Trashing an Estate substantially increases your deck's money density on top of whatever you are buying to improve your deck. Trashing a Copper usually first decreases your deck's money density before you buy something to improve your deck.

Vislor, I hate to invoke argument from authority, but you are the sole representative of a side in an argument against established, experienced Dominion players. It seems that your view on the value of cantrip trashing is based on your lack of experience, which is okay as long as you can admit to yourself that your lack of experience is causing you to misjudge cards. We've tried demonstrating to you why cantrip trashing is strong from a theoretical standpoint, but it seems that the only way to convince you for sure is to let you play more games with cards such as Upgrade and Junk Dealer (and even Lookout and Forager) so that you can accurately grasp the strength of cantrip trashing in engine-building.

At some point in your Dominion experience, you probably thought, "Chapel is bad, why would you want to trash cards." This is just a different version of the "Chapel is bad" experience. You'll come around in due time.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2015, 07:47:55 am »
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Fine, I'm prepared to concede that can trip trasher is a tricky card to price. I am quite experienced though (although only against the same few players), and have all available sets and have played roughly 5 games a week for the last 2 years. It is my favourite game and I have spent quite a while thinking and reading about strategies. I know all you guys think engine is the best in most circumstances, but in my experience that is not necessarily true. Yes it's nice when you pull it off, and I think you can absolutely crush certain strategies if you devise the right engine against a weaker one, but it is not always the be all and end all. Most boards afford a huge variety of strategies, and you will not always be best off going for an engine even if there's one available. I think the best strategy changes just as frequently as the cards themselves and often a combination of strategies can work just as well too. Engines depend on a number of things being available together, that reduces the likelihood of it's availability as a strategy. Even then they can take a long time to build and get right, you will probably quite often just be getting started once other players already have a couple of provinces. Yes they will slow down, but you'd better hope that 3 piles don't run out before your engine kicks in! Tricky....

I also should add that I play with Platinum and Colonies in most games, and that tends to put a higher emphasis on payload and platinum itself.

That said, yes I understand can trip trashing is a hugely helpful kickstarter to the engine strategy. It does not, however, mean you can't have a good $4 card (hospital). The extra action on hospital means you will try and play it to play engine components (if you have no other +actions in hand) and will therefore start self-destructing your engine once it is built. It's almost like a tempter and is going to be a dangerous card to keep playing if you're relying on the +actions. However, it is actually quite a boring card anyway and I can see why Donald has never produced it, it's real interest in my set comes from the overpay to remove plague tokens ability. What would people think about:

Hospital $4+ - ACTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. Discard one of your plague tokens. When you buy this you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpay you may trash a card from your discard pile.

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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2015, 08:57:15 am »
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Fine, I'm prepared to concede that can trip trasher is a tricky card to price. I am quite experienced though (although only against the same few players), and have all available sets and have played roughly 5 games a week for the last 2 years. It is my favourite game and I have spent quite a while thinking and reading about strategies. I know all you guys think engine is the best in most circumstances, but in my experience that is not necessarily true. Yes it's nice when you pull it off, and I think you can absolutely crush certain strategies if you devise the right engine against a weaker one, but it is not always the be all and end all. Most boards afford a huge variety of strategies, and you will not always be best off going for an engine even if there's one available. I think the best strategy changes just as frequently as the cards themselves and often a combination of strategies can work just as well too. Engines depend on a number of things being available together, that reduces the likelihood of it's availability as a strategy. Even then they can take a long time to build and get right, you will probably quite often just be getting started once other players already have a couple of provinces. Yes they will slow down, but you'd better hope that 3 piles don't run out before your engine kicks in! Tricky....

I've played roughly 8 games a day for the last 2 years. Well, anyway, it sounds like you're (usually?) playing the game with more than 2 players. 3+ player games are vastly different from 2-player games, and most people on these forums play almost exclusively 2-player games, so that's probably why there was a disagreement. If you're designing cards mainly for your own playgroup, and you think you won't play a lot of 2-player games, then having some cards that wouldn't be balanced in 2-player games might not be a problem if they work for you.
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2015, 04:06:07 pm »
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I am quite experienced though (although only against the same few players), and have all available sets and have played roughly 5 games a week for the last 2 years.

Right, so you've played just over 500 games in the last 2 years. And you've also played them against the same few people, so your play group has developed its own sort of metagame. Maybe one guy always prefers going for a certain kind of strategy, and everyone has a view of that strategy because that guy doesn't execute it well, or he always gets countered, or something.

Awaclus has 2764 games logged on Goko, and he doesn't always play the same few people. The consensus about Dominion cards that this community has reached is based in part on the experiences of users who have played over 10000 games each. So while I think you may be somewhat experienced, it would not be inaccurate to say that you're still a neophyte in comparison to many of the users here.
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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2015, 04:37:02 pm »
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I can confirm that having more players lessens the viability of engines. One important reason would be that important engine pieces like Fishing Village might run out before you can get more than 3 of them. Also attacks will hit you more often, which can actually raise the importance of trashers, but also drags out the game, raising the chances for successful slog strategies. Just my two cents.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2015, 04:48:41 pm »
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I agree with both Awaclus and dondon here.  The player count could definitely have an effect on your perceptions, and groupthink is a thing too.  Playing with Platinum and Colonies actually makes engines more viable, because the extra source of strong VP makes the game longer, giving the engine more time to become unstoppable.

Having more players makes engines more difficult because of competition over engine components as well as how fast the non-engine players can drain the VP piles together.  1v1, the non-engine has a more difficult time ending the game before the engine can come back and take the lead.  There is also the fact that Big Money strategies can get lucky and win despite being inferior overall; having more players just increases the chance that one player hits some optimal shuffle luck.

That said, yes I understand can trip trashing is a hugely helpful kickstarter to the engine strategy. It does not, however, mean you can't have a good $4 card (hospital). The extra action on hospital means you will try and play it to play engine components (if you have no other +actions in hand) and will therefore start self-destructing your engine once it is built. It's almost like a tempter and is going to be a dangerous card to keep playing if you're relying on the +actions. However, it is actually quite a boring card anyway and I can see why Donald has never produced it, it's real interest in my set comes from the overpay to remove plague tokens ability. What would people think about:

Hospital $4+ - ACTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. Discard one of your plague tokens. When you buy this you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpay you may trash a card from your discard pile.

You can have a good $4 card, sure, but that doesn't mean you should have cards that are too good.  Hospital would be in that boat.  As we've tried to explain, Hospital is very comparable to other cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade.  Which of them is stronger isn't important (I think Hospital would often be stronger, but others have disagreed already and that's fine), but they are all definitely in a similar class.  Hospital is very clearly a $5 card.

Your notion about Hospital self-destructing does not follow from its optimal use case.  Even though it is a village, you shouldn't treat it as such.  Its primary use is as a trasher, just like Upgrade and Junk Dealer.  The +actions are just a nice little bonus that can help you out, letting you get more terminals earlier before you invest in other villages.  Likewise, the +$1 from Junk Dealer is just a nice little bonus that can sometimes help you afford a card you otherwise couldn't.  The mistake is in underestimating the value of the +actions, or overestimating the value of the +$1.  The big thing on those cards is still the cantrip trashing.



On your new version of Hospital, I think it sounds OK.  I would actually suggest dropping the overpay entirely, or maybe using the same overpay you had before.  Just make Hospital a plague-cleanser through and through.
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2015, 04:56:26 pm »
+1

I've also noticed that when I play 3-player with my friends, sometimes instead of one of them making the decision that would best increase his chances of winning in the long-term, he would make a decision that would most increase my chance of losing. Collusion and king-making exist in 3-player, especially in a frequent play group.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2015, 05:54:59 am »
+1

I think I've got it!!!

Hospital $4 - ACTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard one of your plague tokens. If you do, trash a card from your hand.


or if that's still too powerful make the village effect happen after the discard and trashing effect.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 07:57:23 am by Vislor »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2015, 10:17:53 am »
+1

I think I've got it!!!

Hospital $4 - ACTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard one of your plague tokens. If you do, trash a card from your hand.


or if that's still too powerful make the village effect happen after the discard and trashing effect.

You have to consider what happens when this card is in a set with no cards that can cause you to take a Plague token... in that case it's just a $4 Village. I like this idea, but I think you need to add to it a way for the card itself to give plague tokens as well; even if it just gives a couple on-gain.
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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2015, 06:34:25 pm »
+1

I think I've got it!!!

Hospital $4 - ACTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard one of your plague tokens. If you do, trash a card from your hand.


or if that's still too powerful make the village effect happen after the discard and trashing effect.

You have to consider what happens when this card is in a set with no cards that can cause you to take a Plague token... in that case it's just a $4 Village. I like this idea, but I think you need to add to it a way for the card itself to give plague tokens as well; even if it just gives a couple on-gain.
Although a very similar thing holds for Fortress: without trashing, it's just a $4 Village.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2015, 07:28:40 pm »
+1

I think I've got it!!!

Hospital $4 - ACTION

+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard one of your plague tokens. If you do, trash a card from your hand.


or if that's still too powerful make the village effect happen after the discard and trashing effect.

You have to consider what happens when this card is in a set with no cards that can cause you to take a Plague token... in that case it's just a $4 Village. I like this idea, but I think you need to add to it a way for the card itself to give plague tokens as well; even if it just gives a couple on-gain.
Although a very similar thing holds for Fortress: without trashing, it's just a $4 Village.

True. The only difference is that there's way more cards that trash than cards that give plague tokens.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2015, 08:42:28 pm »
+2

Maybe this?

Hospital
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard one of your plague tokens.  If you did, trash a card from your hand.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it.  For each $1 you overpaid, gain a plague token.

It's a little strange thematically, but not completely inexplicable.  I'd wonder if it can end up too harsh with Possession (now you overpay for Hospital and you gain a whole bunch of plague tokens!) but I think it can work.  I made the "discard a plague token" mandatory because usually you'd want to anyway, and this simplifies the card a little bit.
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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2015, 09:20:37 pm »
0

Possess someone into being such a bad doctor they catch a bunch of terrible diseases!
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2015, 04:32:31 pm »
+1

I like eHalcyon's fix. I think it's not even weird thematically.

One thing you could do is, instead of overpaying for plague tokens, just make Hospital come with 1 or 2 plague tokens and remove the overpay.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2015, 04:19:28 am »
+1

Ok, yeah, good thinking guys. I think I'll scrap the overpay and make it come with 2 plague tokens. It'll be kind of like you're going somewhere riddled with disease but it will eventually make you better!
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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2015, 05:23:30 am »
+3

Gain two bad things as fodder when gaining a $4 card? That seems... established.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2015, 01:16:03 pm »
0

Gain two bad things as fodder when gaining a $4 card? That seems... established.

This is nicer though, since Death Cart's Ruins don't always collide.
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