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Author Topic: Dominion: Pestilence  (Read 16303 times)

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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2015, 01:45:43 pm »
+1

I can definitely think of scenarios in which I'd upgrade a Swindler into a $4 cost card, even if I opened Swindler/Swindler.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2015, 02:38:09 pm »
0

I can definitely think of scenarios in which I'd upgrade a Swindler into a $4 cost card, even if I opened Swindler/Swindler.

There are always exceptions.  But I think more often you'd prefer to trash junk and keep the Swindler.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2015, 05:41:24 am »
0

I can definitely think of scenarios in which I'd upgrade a Swindler into a $4 cost card, even if I opened Swindler/Swindler.

There are always exceptions.  But I think more often you'd prefer to trash junk and keep the Swindler.

Sure, but once the junk's gone you're gonna have to trash one of those swindlers aren't you? I don't think that's a very clever strategy...Especially if you're relying on hospital for the extra actions...which is in fact it's only bonus over Junk Dealer or Upgrade.

Consider the differences between Treasury and Walled Village. They are both pretty similar to the differences between Junk Dealer and Hospital.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 06:41:08 am by Vislor »
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2015, 02:31:09 pm »
+1

Consider the differences between Treasury and Walled Village. They are both pretty similar to the differences between Junk Dealer and Hospital.

The difference between Smithy and Hunting Grounds is technically the same as the difference between Village and a 1-pile City, but in reality, the difference between Village and a 1-pile City is much bigger, because you buy Villages and Smithies in different circumstances and the extra +1 card is usually more powerful in the situations where you have bought a Village or a City than in the situations where you have bought a Smithy or a Hunting Grounds.

Likewise, Treasury and Walled Village are very much different from Junk Dealer and Hospital. You don't buy a Treasury when what you really want is a Junk Dealer, and you don't buy a Walled Village when what you really want is a Hospital i.e. you don't buy them when you need trashing, you buy them when you need +$ and +actions, respectively. The difference between getting +$ from a card you bought for +$ and getting +actions from a card you bought for +actions is not comparable to the difference between getting +$ from a card you bought for trashing and getting +actions from a card you bought for trashing.


If you want a comparison that actually somewhat works, let's say on turn 3 you play a Lookout which reveals Copper, Copper, Necropolis. You obviously leave a Copper on your deck, but without knowing the rest of the kingdom, it's very hard to say which you would do more often; trash the Copper, or trash the Necropolis. Copper is pretty much always bad, but there are times when Necropolis is even worse, and other times when it's actually good. I probably trash Necropoleis over Coppers more often than not, but it's certainly not the difference between a $4 card and a $5 card especially when said $5 card is one of the most powerful cards in the entire game.


EDIT: Actually, I think you could just make it a flat $5 card that always removes one plague token on-buy.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:32:37 pm by Awaclus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2015, 04:35:03 pm »
0

Consider the differences between Treasury and Walled Village. They are both pretty similar to the differences between Junk Dealer and Hospital.

Awaclus has already touched on this, but the comparison to Treasury and Walled Village isn't valid. 

Just to start, the difference between Junk Dealer and Hospital is not at all like the difference between Treasury and Walled Village.  In the former, you are merely trading off +$1 and +1 action.  In the latter, you are also trading between two different top-deck abilities.  Treasury's is much, much stronger than Walled Village.  WV only works when its function isn't fulfilled.  In a regular engine, WV almost never top-decks itself, making it nothing more than an expensive regular Village.  Treasury, however, gives you an almost-permanent boost to every turn until you start greening, aiding you in picking up costlier engine components.  When you start greening, Treasury's top-decking gives you additional reliability in reaching higher price points.

But there is a bigger reason why the comparison is invalid, and that is the simple fact that Hospital and Junk Dealer are trashers.  You really seem to be underestimating how good that trashing is.  This quote is really telling:

Sure, but once the junk's gone you're gonna have to trash one of those swindlers aren't you? I don't think that's a very clever strategy...Especially if you're relying on hospital for the extra actions...which is in fact it's only bonus over Junk Dealer or Upgrade.

Once the junk is gone, your engine should be humming.  Whether you got to that state with Junk Dealer or Hospital, it doesn't matter -- the card has done its job.  You don't need to trash one of those Swindlers because you don't need to play your trasher anymore.  Your junk is gone!  That was the whole point!

Let me try a different approach here.  Consider these two prototypical cards:

Quote
Cantrip Trasher
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

Quote
Cantrip Coin
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

Which of these two do you think is stronger?  How expensive should each card be?
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2015, 04:39:38 am »
0


Once the junk is gone, your engine should be humming.  Whether you got to that state with Junk Dealer or Hospital, it doesn't matter -- the card has done its job.  You don't need to trash one of those Swindlers because you don't need to play your trasher anymore.  Your junk is gone!  That was the whole point!

Let me try a different approach here.  Consider these two prototypical cards:

Quote
Cantrip Trasher
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

Quote
Cantrip Coin
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

Which of these two do you think is stronger?  How expensive should each card be?

Well the engine is only humming if you have more "splitters" other than hospital - OR.....more cantrip coins. Therefore I consider cantrip coin a more useful card. I would price it at $4 and cantrip trasher at $3.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2015, 05:00:26 am »
0

Well the engine is only humming if you have more "splitters" other than hospital - OR.....more cantrip coins. Therefore I consider cantrip coin a more useful card.

Then you'd be wrong. Cantrip coins are not engine components, they are payload.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2015, 05:11:36 am »
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Well the engine is only humming if you have more "splitters" other than hospital - OR.....more cantrip coins. Therefore I consider cantrip coin a more useful card.

Then you'd be wrong. Cantrip coins are not engine components, they are payload.

Um, not sure I understand the game Dominion then. My understanding was to win the game you had to buy the Victory cards. How else do you do that without payload? (or indeed buy any other cards)
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2015, 06:28:50 am »
0

Well the engine is only humming if you have more "splitters" other than hospital - OR.....more cantrip coins. Therefore I consider cantrip coin a more useful card.

Then you'd be wrong. Cantrip coins are not engine components, they are payload.

Um, not sure I understand the game Dominion then. My understanding was to win the game you had to buy the Victory cards. How else do you do that without payload? (or indeed buy any other cards)

First you build a deck that actually works by trashing and buying engine parts, then you add payload. If you add payload early, it's going to take longer before your deck starts actually working. You need enough economy to buy the engine parts, but not more.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2015, 06:40:24 am »
0


First you build a deck that actually works by trashing and buying engine parts, then you add payload. If you add payload early, it's going to take longer before your deck starts actually working. You need enough economy to buy the engine parts, but not more.

Sure, but cantrip coin is never a card you don't want to play. Cantrip trasher is. Your engine strategy relies on the availability of splitters - if there aren't any (and hospital won't work as one after the junk is gone), it is not a strategy which will work.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2015, 06:53:47 am »
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First you build a deck that actually works by trashing and buying engine parts, then you add payload. If you add payload early, it's going to take longer before your deck starts actually working. You need enough economy to buy the engine parts, but not more.

Sure, but cantrip coin is never a card you don't want to play. Cantrip trasher is. Your engine strategy relies on the availability of splitters - if there aren't any (and hospital won't work as one after the junk is gone), it is not a strategy which will work.

What's your point?
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2015, 07:05:15 am »
0


What's your point?

That cantrip coin is more often more useful than cantrip trasher.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2015, 07:31:08 am »
0


What's your point?

That cantrip coin is more often more useful than cantrip trasher.

That doesn't follow from anything you said, plus it's not true.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2015, 07:36:15 am »
+1


What's your point?

That cantrip coin is more often more useful than cantrip trasher.

What's your point?

That cantrip coin is more often more useful than cantrip trasher.

That doesn't follow from anything you said, plus it's not true.

Playtest. Use Peddler and declare that it costs $4. Use another card and declare that it does just cantrip trashing. You will see the difference.

eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2015, 05:19:18 pm »
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Once the junk is gone, your engine should be humming.  Whether you got to that state with Junk Dealer or Hospital, it doesn't matter -- the card has done its job.  You don't need to trash one of those Swindlers because you don't need to play your trasher anymore.  Your junk is gone!  That was the whole point!

Let me try a different approach here.  Consider these two prototypical cards:

Quote
Cantrip Trasher
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

Quote
Cantrip Coin
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

Which of these two do you think is stronger?  How expensive should each card be?

Well the engine is only humming if you have more "splitters" other than hospital - OR.....more cantrip coins. Therefore I consider cantrip coin a more useful card. I would price it at $4 and cantrip trasher at $3.

Cantrip Coin is correctly priced at $4.  However, Cantrip Trasher pretty much cannot cost less than $4.  The cantrip trasher is by far stronger than the cantrip coin.  At $4, the cantrip trasher is arguably stronger than Sea Hag, the highest rated $4 card.  If you put it at $3, I would probably open with two of them more than 90% of the time that I could.  At $4, I would open with it just as often.  It's actually arguable that the Cantrip Trasher is too strong for $4, but it can't cost $5 because Upgrade and Junk Dealer exist.

You are correct that "cantrip coin is never a card you don't want to play" (ignoring edge cases...), but that is not a great indication of strength.  Pearl Diver is also a card that is always fine to play, but it is really weak.  The impact of cantrip trasher is far more powerful than cantrip coin.  Trashing is that good! 

I was hoping you would at least acknowledge that cantrip trasher needs to be a $4 card at least.  The next comparison would have been to buff both cards to make them Village Trasher and Village Coin, i.e. Hospital and Bazaar.  I guess that approach has failed.

It really sounds like you are unfamiliar with engines in Dominion.  You keep saying that the strategy fails once the junk is gone, but it is exactly the opposite.  That moment is not the end, it is the beginning*.  Once the junk is gone, your deck is free to do great things.

*Though actually, the beginning is a little earlier because you should already be building and accelerating before the junk is completely gone.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2015, 06:14:00 pm »
0

You need to get lucky with the kingdom to make engines work. They're quite a rare strategy in my experience. Also rats is 4 and forager is 3. Both are arguably better than can trip trasher.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2015, 06:23:47 pm »
0

You need to get lucky with the kingdom to make engines work. They're quite a rare strategy in my experience. Also rats is 4 and forager is 3. Both are arguably better than can trip trasher.

Engines are absolutely not a rare strategy.  Engines are dominant on most boards.  This is probably your key misconception and the reason for the confusion here.

Rats is much weaker than Cantrip Trasher because you can't use them to decrease your deck size.  The extra Rats are actually a liability except in very niche cases.  Forager is a very good card (ranked #7 for $3 cards), but the lack of card draw is a liability, limiting your hand size and slowing down your cycling.  +Buy and +$ gives Forager more use in the late game, but the lost cycling still means it is slower than cantrip trasher.

Edit:

Here is a nice primer on "The Five Fundamental Deck Types".  Most relevant will be the articles on Engine and Combo (because many combos benefit from strong trashing).

Big Money is most dominant in the base set, without expansions, but engines are often dominant there too.  This article on the first game engine is a great illustration of that.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 06:32:27 pm by eHalcyon »
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2015, 03:54:27 am »
0

Engines are dominant on most boards.

This. You can almost always build an engine, and when you can, it's almost always the best strategy.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2015, 04:53:29 am »
+1

Spice Merchant $4 - trash treasure for 2 cards + 1 action OR 2 money + 1 buy

That's better than can trip trasher.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2015, 04:55:08 am »
0

Spice Merchant $4 - trash treasure for 2 cards + 1 action OR 2 money + 1 buy

That's better than can trip trasher.

It's not. It's limited to Treasures, and you have to trash before drawing.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2015, 05:39:11 am »
0

Spice Merchant $4 - trash treasure for 2 cards + 1 action OR 2 money + 1 buy

That's better than can trip trasher.

It's not. It's limited to Treasures, and you have to trash before drawing.

It also has more options though. And what you and eHalcyon are suggesting for can trip trasher is that it removes junk, ie coppers and estates. It also has a good later game usage as you can trash silver if necessary and still get the $2 AND an extra buy so you can always keep getting copper if you want to keep using it. can trip trasher becomes useless after the junk is gone.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2015, 06:18:47 am »
0

Spice Merchant $4 - trash treasure for 2 cards + 1 action OR 2 money + 1 buy

That's better than can trip trasher.

It's not. It's limited to Treasures, and you have to trash before drawing.

It also has more options though. And what you and eHalcyon are suggesting for can trip trasher is that it removes junk, ie coppers and estates. It also has a good later game usage as you can trash silver if necessary and still get the $2 AND an extra buy so you can always keep getting copper if you want to keep using it. can trip trasher becomes useless after the junk is gone.
So you can trash the Copper to get +$2 and +1 buy, which you will spend on another Copper, i.e. it's as if you just had two Coppers in your deck. Why did you even trash the Coppers in the first place if you want to have two Coppers in your deck? Spice Merchant can be used to trash something to get a double Province turn or threaten a 3-pile ending or something if you need that +buy, but otherwise it's entirely useless in the late game. A cantrip trasher removes Coppers, Estates, Curses, Ruins and Silvers. Spice Merchant only removes Coppers and Silvers. Trashing a Copper from your hand essentially gives you a -$1 that turn, trashing an Estate doesn't, and trashing an Estate is better for your near future economy too.
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Vislor

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2015, 06:51:26 am »
0

So you can trash the Copper to get +$2 and +1 buy, which you will spend on another Copper, i.e. it's as if you just had two Coppers in your deck. Why did you even trash the Coppers in the first place if you want to have two Coppers in your deck? Spice Merchant can be used to trash something to get a double Province turn or threaten a 3-pile ending or something if you need that +buy, but otherwise it's entirely useless in the late game. A cantrip trasher removes Coppers, Estates, Curses, Ruins and Silvers. Spice Merchant only removes Coppers and Silvers. Trashing a Copper from your hand essentially gives you a -$1 that turn, trashing an Estate doesn't, and trashing an Estate is better for your near future economy too.

Cos then you can use the spice merchant again if you still have coppers. Ruins are rare...curses aren't as rare but still fairly rare. You only have 3 estates. You have 7 copper to get rid of if you want to play engine.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2015, 07:09:11 am »
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Cos then you can use the spice merchant again if you still have coppers.

Yes because you want to get rid of those Coppers because the only reason you want a Spice Merchant is to get rid of your Coppers and possibly get extra +buy. You don't want to ruin it by spending the extra +buy on more Coppers when you're finally done getting rid of them.

Ruins are rare...curses aren't as rare but still fairly rare. You only have 3 estates. You have 7 copper to get rid of if you want to play engine.

Sure, a Spice Merchant is usually enough to get a working engine going on. But you get it a lot earlier if you trash Estates early instead of Coppers.
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Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2015, 07:10:19 am »
0

Being able to target only Copper makes Spice Merchant able to at best do 70% of the trashing job a full cantrip trasher can, and in the presence of junkers it can easily fall to 50% or less. Junk Dealer and anything along its lines can do 100% of that job, and that difference is worth more than Spice Merchant's little side benefits. Especially when junk like Estates and Curses are much worse than Copper.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 07:11:35 am by TheOthin »
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