Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6  All

Author Topic: Dominion: Pestilence  (Read 14108 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2015, 10:55:58 am »
0


I don't which changes would be best.  My primary concern is that you can accumulate plague tokens faster than you can realistically remove them, which leads to a broken game state on many boards.  Even though the plague tokens don't hurt in the early game, they can completely stonewall you when you want to green.  If there is no efficient way of clearing them, you have no choice but to try to keep pace and get rid of them even in the early game or else you will never catch back up.  Privies are junk so you actually don't want to gain them, even if they are free.

If you can remove unlimited numbers of curse tokens in one turn (by paying enough), that might help.  If Privies can clear more efficiently (e.g. 2 tokens per play), that might help.  The exact balance is tough to say.

While it is great to encourage finding alternate ways to green, not every board has VP tokens, Remodel cards or ways of gaining VP cards other than buying them.  Saying that you can buy cheaper VP is easy, but the reality is that plague tokens could make even Estates impossible to buy if you get too many of them.

As an aside, it should be noted that Dominion already leans away from Big Money strategies in high level play.  Don't be discouraged f you find your engines losing most to Big Money. The thing is, BM is easier to play and engines can be tricky.  But as you improve, Big Money becomes less and less effective!

As you say it's a balance thing...I don't want the plague to be EASY to get rid of. Also, no matter what the win conditions are (ie 3 piles empty and only a couple of Estates/Duchies each) then it's still the player who has managed their plague best who wins isn't it? Doesn't really matter if the bigger VPs don't get bought in every game.

Quote
(Diseases)

If they still act as they are (like permanent durations or a princed card), it's really tricky to balance.  Again, an attack that is guaranteed to be played every turn for free is really good! 

At a low price like $3, it is almost certainly the best use of your
buy.  The next player is given the same choice with the added incentive of getting rid of an opponent's attack.  And so it goes, on and on.  At some point somebody has to give up and do something different for a turn.  Maybe somebody gets a +Buy and can continue the cycle while still doing something useful.  It's not great.

But at a high price, it becomes kind of swingy.  Depending on which Disease is on top, the first player to get one may have a huge advantage.  The attack being played every turn may hinder others from getting a disease of their own.

I really don't know what you can do with the concept to make it reasonable.  If the attack is going to be played every single turn, they should probably be weaker overall, and more uniform in power.  It might be interesting if they didn't go directly into play.  In this case, if somebody else buys a Disease then you might want to as well, so you have a way to get rid of theirs (by putting your own into play).  But now, it is probably better to be the last to play their Disease card, so it creates a kind of cold war tension.  It also gives you a bonus if you can create a deck that gains, draws and plays the card in a single turn.  But still, as they are, I think the effects on most of these cards is too strong when "princed".

How about this idea? When you have more than 5 plague tokens at the end of your turn gain a disease:

Disease $0* - DURATION ATTACK

When you gain this it goes straight into your play area.
At the start of your turn you may gain a plague token. If you do, carry out the attack.
At the start of your next turn pass this to the play area of the player to your left.
When another Disease is gained while this is in your play area, put this to the bottom of the Diseases pile and discard all your plague tokens.

 
Quote
(flea)

Basically, it's less interesting the second time around.  I like what Donald recently said about novelty in Dominion expansions:



Dominion has so many expansions that it has gotten to the point of being hard to do stuff that feels new that isn't really wordy. I avoided things like doing say four versions of each concept; you know, like there are a bunch of cards that do something when you gain/buy them, but Nomad Camp is the only one that goes on your deck. I could have made a Lab version of that and a Smithy version of that and so on, but I kept it at one card.

In the context of "what if this is a real set?", Rats was really cool but I'd rather have two new cards of 10 copies each rather than one new card with 20 copies that is itself pretty similar to another card.

TfB means "trash for benefit", like Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop.  These cards care about card cost, which has an interesting relationship with Rats.  Rats replaces low-cost Coppers and Estates with $4 cards -- much better for TfB cards!  Flea only costs $1 though, so it does not provide you with TfB fodder (at least none that is useful).

I get what you and Donald mean, but this card does do something new, it jumps to the left....and yes, I have no shame in saying that this is entirely inspired by and meant to be a cool spin off of the Rats card...in fact I think in some situations it's probably a more useful card and may even be more likely to be bought more often...so I'm cool with it! One reason for that is that the benefit for trashing it improves ALL trashers when used in combo...not just the TfB trashers.

Quote
(Haemorrhage) With fleas it works best for the discard effect, so if you're trashing money or victory cards and can discard a bunch of fleas. It's harder to get it to work for trashing them because, as you rightly say, you don't want to trash those precious Action cards, not to mention you actually gain a plague token for each one you trash anyway, so they cancel each other out! With tunnels, well, we had a game where this guy was buying silver, naming that with haemorrage and trashing all his copper and discarding a bunch of tunnels into the bargain. Then he was naming gold, trashing silver and discarding a bunch of tunnels into the bargain. Then, though, he had the bright (or not?!) idea to name silver after filling his deck with gold and more tunnels....thus trashing all his gold, but discarding all his tunnels for more gold and draining the gold supply so the rest of us had none to buy!!! I thought it was excellent use of haemorrhage, but he still didn't win because he didn't manage to get his plague down in time before 3 piles were exhausted. Hmmmm...

I don't know, this still sounds like it needs too much prep to be worthwhile. :P

Perhaps...but I'll keep play testing it cos I like the concept, and anyway...haemorrhages are tricky things to control and should not be taken lightly! :P

Quote
(Hospital)
I don't think you guys will get me to move on this. I still think Junk Dealer is way more like Lab in that it is essentially drawing you 2 cards, just that one of those is an enforced copper. Hospital draws you a card and then forces you to reduce hand size with no extra money. At least with Junk Dealer, chaining them is a reasonable option as it gives you some money to spend at the end of your turn, even if you end up having to trash a Junk Dealer itself with your final trash. Chaining hospitals is not that desirable given you may end up trashing something you really don't want to and there's no end pay off!! It just becomes another Village idiot strategy. Oh, I just played 4 hospitals...wow I could have spent 2 on a chapel to get that effect! Well there must be some reason they're so expensive, now...do I risk playing that 5th??? Oops, I now have no cards in hand and a bunch of hospitals to still try and play with!

Junk Dealer really is not like Lab at all.  You absolutely cannot equate +$1 with +1 card, and the big thing about Junk Dealer is that it trashes.  Trashing is the key to this and to Hospital.

Comparing to Chapel is also no good.  If both Junk Dealer and Chapel are on the board, you are very unlikely to choose Junk Dealer.

And no, you probably should not be buying 4 Hospitals unless you really want to use that overpay effect.  You would buy 1 or 2 Hospitals to trim your deck, using the extra +action to play more terminals and eventually getting to the point where you have a thin deck with 1 Hospital that maybe won't get played again.

Well you can equate $1 to 1 copper card! Admittedly, it is not equatable to any other card, but remember that any other card may be a Victory or curse or some other useless card to you. At least the Junk Dealer gives you the guarantee of being able to spend some money after playing one or more of them. Hospital doesn't do that, and it becomes less playable the more you thin that deck.

Also, consider Herald. It's a $4+ card which potentially gives you 2 cards and 2 Actions. AND if you buy one for $5 you put one of your best cards on top of your deck.

No, I'm sticking to my guns here...$4+


Quote
I've come up with an idea for the card which I think might work now:

Barber $5 - ACTION

+1 Plague token. You may discard up to 3 Plague tokens. - While this is in play gain 1VP for every plague token discarded this turn.

The timing on the end is a bit strange.  A "while this is in play" effect is active as long as the card is in play, so it doesn't make sense to attach a specific window of time on it ("this turn").  Instead, it should say: "While this is in play, +1VP token when you discard a Plague token".

I think this is a weak card that is occasionally pretty strong (note: not necessarily a bad thing; not every card can or should be powerful).  Even at its most outrageous though, I don't think it eclipses Goons.  So it is reasonable.  I would actually suggest giving it +$2.  If you add that, it is often like Monument but with a bit more potential (especially when stacked).  You really want to give the player some money to spend to mitigate the possibility of getting into an unending game state where you spend your whole turn getting VP tokens and doing nothing else.  If the player has coins to spend, they are encouraged to buy something and progress towards a game ending condition.

Well your wording changes the effect. Consider Processing Barber...you would not get the VP tokens for discarding plague with Barber my way, but you would with yours.

Actually, looking at it again my wording is still not very good though is it...?!

OK I'll change it to your way!

Quote
Yeah I think it might work....but wouldn't it be "one fewer cards"....?

I don't think so, but now I am not sure... and now that I check, it seems like "one less" might be preferred anyways just because of common usage, despite the fact that "cards" is a countable noun.   :o

I prefer to get the grammar right and don't like some of the "Oh, it's common usage" excuses...so I'll check it out some time. Consider though:

"I bought one fewer CDs at the shop. I bought one more CD at the shop."
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 12:42:21 pm by Vislor »
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9078
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2015, 06:31:58 pm »
0

Quote
As you say it's a balance thing...I don't want the plague to be EASY to get rid of. Also, no matter what the win conditions are (ie 3 piles empty and only a couple of Estates/Duchies each) then it's still the player who has managed their plague best who wins isn't it? Doesn't really matter if the bigger VPs don't get bought in every game.

Again, the danger with Plague is that you can get to a game state where even Estates are too expensive to buy.  You said that plague tokens are infinite, some diseases give out 1-2 plague tokens every turn, and you can have multiple players playing multiple regular plague-giving attacks between each of your turns.  That gives a very real possibility of having everybody locked out of every VP card.

As for managing Plague, this depends on how manageable it actually is.  With the concept in the OP, it would probably come down to who got lucky with lining up +Buys and getting a good disease into play rather than actual plague management.  Even as is, it could be pretty swingy and come down to luck rather than good play.  As you test, keep an eye on the balance and make sure that it is actually manageable.

Quote
How about this idea? When you have more than 5 plague tokens at the end of your turn gain a disease:

Disease $0* - DURATION ATTACK

When you gain this it goes straight into your play area.
At the start of your turn you may gain a plague token. If you do, carry out the attack.
At the start of your next turn pass this to the play area of the player to your left.
When another Disease is gained while this is in your play area, put this to the bottom of the Diseases pile and discard all your plague tokens.

So the question is, what is the intention behind the concept?  How do you think it will play out, and how do you want it to play out?  The changes here are a pretty big departure from the previous concept. 

The original Diseases were powerful effects that a player could gain to get an advantage.  This version is a neutral injection of chaos into the game.  It's neutral because the disease will pass around the table, and it's chaotic because it will somewhat randomly help another player clear all their plague tokens.  It also has less of an impact than before because players can opt not to trigger the attack (note: less of an impact does not mean it is worse as a concept).

So what is your goal with Disease cards?

Quote
(Hospital) Well you can equate $1 to 1 copper card! Admittedly, it is not equatable to any other card, but remember that any other card may be a Victory or curse or some other useless card to you. At least the Junk Dealer gives you the guarantee of being able to spend some money after playing one or more of them. Hospital doesn't do that, and it becomes less playable the more you thin that deck.

Also, consider Herald. It's a $4+ card which potentially gives you 2 cards and 2 Actions. AND if you buy one for $5 you put one of your best cards on top of your deck.

No, I'm sticking to my guns here...$4+

In a well built deck, +1 card will usually be something much better than a Copper. Herald is a strong card, but it takes work to get to that point.  If you don't have a deck with high action density, it whiffs and is just a pure cantrip, worth almost nothing.  Even in an action-dense deck, it gives you far less control than an actual +2 cards, +2 actions.

When you cost a card, the most important thing (behind playtesting, of course) is to consider its function and compare it to other, official cards with the same role.  Hospital is a cantrip trasher with a bonus.  The family is Upgrade, Junk Dealer and Rats.  Rats has more of a penalty than a bonus (it doesn't actually thin you deck), while the other two cost $5.

Compared to Upgrade, Hospital is certainly better at trashing $0 junk like Coppers, Curses and Ruins.  Estate trashing is debatable, though I'd usually give it to Upgrade giving you Silver or $3 engine components (though you don't always want the available $3 cards).  Hospital has added utility in sometimes helping you play more terminals.  Upgrade has added utility in sometimes letting you convert good cards into better cards.

All in all, they are pretty even.  And I can make similar comparisons with Junk Dealer as well.

To your specific points: in the early game, you can usually buy something after playing Hospital too.  Junk Dealer has only a tiny edge there.  Junk Dealer also becomes less playable as you thin your deck, so that's not a valid point.  Maybe Hospital is weaker than Junk Dealer (debatable!) but it's certainly not so much weaker that it drops to $4.  They are really very close in strength.

Quote
(Barber) Well your wording changes the effect. Consider Processing Barber...you would not get the VP tokens for discarding plague with Barber my way, but you would with yours.

Actually, looking at it again my wording is still not very good though is it...?!

OK I'll change it to your way!

Why wouldn't you get the VP tokens with your version?  You used "while this is in play" which is in effect while the card is in play, including during Procession.  Perhaps what you actually intended was:

"When you discard this during clean-up, +1VP token for each Plague token discarded this turn."

For this version, the concern is whether the players can track how many tokens were discarded.  It seems like something that would be easy to forget.

Quote
I prefer to get the grammar right and don't like some of the "Oh, it's common usage" excuses...so I'll check it out some time. Consider though:

"I bought one fewer CDs at the shop. I bought one more CD at the shop."

It would be "I bought one fewer CD at the shop".
Logged

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2015, 11:58:43 am »
0

Quote
How about this idea? When you have more than 5 plague tokens at the end of your turn gain a disease:

Disease $0* - DURATION ATTACK

When you gain this it goes straight into your play area.
At the start of your turn you may gain a plague token. If you do, carry out the attack.
At the start of your next turn pass this to the play area of the player to your left.
When another Disease is gained while this is in your play area, put this to the bottom of the Diseases pile and discard all your plague tokens.



So the question is, what is the intention behind the concept?  How do you think it will play out, and how do you want it to play out?  The changes here are a pretty big departure from the previous concept. 

The original Diseases were powerful effects that a player could gain to get an advantage.  This version is a neutral injection of chaos into the game.  It's neutral because the disease will pass around the table, and it's chaotic because it will somewhat randomly help another player clear all their plague tokens.  It also has less of an impact than before because players can opt not to trigger the attack (note: less of an impact does not mean it is worse as a concept).

So what is your goal with Disease cards?

Well the original idea was to increase plague towards the end of the game as people started greening, and to make sure there was always a way for plague tokens to play a part in the game if people wanted them to but didn't have the Kingdom cards which gave them out. I know some of the diseases don't give them out though, which kind of destroys that idea anyway, so it didn't work very well!

Ok, so the new idea is to have them increase plague/attacks if plague becomes a problem for a particular player. ie: plague spreads. However, the mechanism I'd thought of also allows a way for plague to be got rid of when another disease enters play. Somehow you are miraculously cured of one disease if another disease breaks out! It does need some work, but I think this is a good concept and helps with your suggestion that plague could break the game if not kept in check. I've actually just realised that the concept of passing to the left doesn't achieve what I wanted to which was to delay the potential attack by a turn each time, so it should have been pass to the right! However, maybe you're right about it being too chaotic and should just stay in your own play area until someone else gains a disease (anyone with a disease cannot gain a new one!)

Quote
(Hospital) Well you can equate $1 to 1 copper card! Admittedly, it is not equatable to any other card, but remember that any other card may be a Victory or curse or some other useless card to you. At least the Junk Dealer gives you the guarantee of being able to spend some money after playing one or more of them. Hospital doesn't do that, and it becomes less playable the more you thin that deck.

Also, consider Herald. It's a $4+ card which potentially gives you 2 cards and 2 Actions. AND if you buy one for $5 you put one of your best cards on top of your deck.

No, I'm sticking to my guns here...$4+


In a well built deck, +1 card will usually be something much better than a Copper. Herald is a strong card, but it takes work to get to that point.  If you don't have a deck with high action density, it whiffs and is just a pure cantrip, worth almost nothing.  Even in an action-dense deck, it gives you far less control than an actual +2 cards, +2 actions.

When you cost a card, the most important thing (behind playtesting, of course) is to consider its function and compare it to other, official cards with the same role.  Hospital is a cantrip trasher with a bonus.  The family is Upgrade, Junk Dealer and Rats.  Rats has more of a penalty than a bonus (it doesn't actually thin you deck), while the other two cost $5.

Compared to Upgrade, Hospital is certainly better at trashing $0 junk like Coppers, Curses and Ruins.  Estate trashing is debatable, though I'd usually give it to Upgrade giving you Silver or $3 engine components (though you don't always want the available $3 cards).  Hospital has added utility in sometimes helping you play more terminals.  Upgrade has added utility in sometimes letting you convert good cards into better cards.

All in all, they are pretty even.  And I can make similar comparisons with Junk Dealer as well.

To your specific points: in the early game, you can usually buy something after playing Hospital too.  Junk Dealer has only a tiny edge there.  Junk Dealer also becomes less playable as you thin your deck, so that's not a valid point.  Maybe Hospital is weaker than Junk Dealer (debatable!) but it's certainly not so much weaker that it drops to $4.  They are really very close in strength.

In a well built deck you are liable to start drawing either good cards or all those lovely Victory cards you have been purchasing before long...hospitals and well built decks do not work well together!!

Also let's consider the other two $5 cantrip trashers. Upgrade and Junk Dealer. Let's imagine you have a hand adding up to $7 (a common Dominion problem) and can choose whether the last action card in your hand to play is Hospital, Upgrade or Junk Dealer. With Junk Dealer you get to play a card and trash whatever you pick up (or a lower value money card already in hand) and still have enough money to buy a Province. With Upgrade you get to choose from whatever is in your hand after picking up to Upgrade into something better and still buy something good. With Hospital you have to trash either whatever you pick up or something already in your hand with no benefit. I'm buying Upgrades and Junk Dealers every time over Hospital.......UNLESS I overpay for the hospital to remove plague, and in that case I'm paying as much as you want it to be worth or more anyway.

Quote
I prefer to get the grammar right and don't like some of the "Oh, it's common usage" excuses...so I'll check it out some time. Consider though:

"I bought one fewer CDs at the shop. I bought one more CD at the shop."

It would be "I bought one fewer CD at the shop".
[/quote]

But how many CDs have you bought? .....  :-\ ........
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9078
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2015, 03:43:34 pm »
0

Quote
Ok, so the new idea is to have them increase plague/attacks if plague becomes a problem for a particular player. ie: plague spreads. However, the mechanism I'd thought of also allows a way for plague to be got rid of when another disease enters play. Somehow you are miraculously cured of one disease if another disease breaks out! It does need some work, but I think this is a good concept and helps with your suggestion that plague could break the game if not kept in check. I've actually just realised that the concept of passing to the left doesn't achieve what I wanted to which was to delay the potential attack by a turn each time, so it should have been pass to the right! However, maybe you're right about it being too chaotic and should just stay in your own play area until someone else gains a disease (anyone with a disease cannot gain a new one!)

Well, I'm not sure if it is your intention, but this is how it plays out:

The turn ends and I have 5 plague tokens.  I gain a disease, putting it in my play area. 
Next turn, I gain a plague token and use the attack. 
At the end of that turn, I have 6 plague tokens.  I immediately gain a new disease.  The previous disease goes back to the pile, I discard all plague tokens.
The turn after that, I can choose to gain a plague token to attack or not. 

It's only after this that the disease has any chance of passing around.  The situation may be a lot weirder if multiple people are at the brink.

Quote
In a well built deck you are liable to start drawing either good cards or all those lovely Victory cards you have been purchasing before long...hospitals and well built decks do not work well together!!

That comment was regarding your suggestion that Junk Dealer is like Lab, showing why you really can't equate +$1 with +1 card.  But you are mistaken -- Hospitals would be found in well built decks because cantrip trashers are used to create well built decks.  That is their primary purpose!

Quote
Also let's consider the other two $5 cantrip trashers. Upgrade and Junk Dealer. Let's imagine you have a hand adding up to $7 (a common Dominion problem) and can choose whether the last action card in your hand to play is Hospital, Upgrade or Junk Dealer. With Junk Dealer you get to play a card and trash whatever you pick up (or a lower value money card already in hand) and still have enough money to buy a Province. With Upgrade you get to choose from whatever is in your hand after picking up to Upgrade into something better and still buy something good. With Hospital you have to trash either whatever you pick up or something already in your hand with no benefit. I'm buying Upgrades and Junk Dealers every time over Hospital.......UNLESS I overpay for the hospital to remove plague, and in that case I'm paying as much as you want it to be worth or more anyway.

That is just one scenario, and you've made some bad assumptions about how you should be building the deck.  Cantrip trashers are played mostly to trash Estates and Coppers.  As I've already outlined above, Hospital is almost always better at trashing Copper than Upgrade, and occasionally better at trashing Estates.  It's also usually better at trashing Shelters.  Even in that scenario, you will probably have $5 or $6 to spend with Hospital, which is fine.

Here's a different scenario -- your hand is [cantrip trasher], 2 Swindlers and 2 Coppers and the card you draw with the trasher is another Copper.  Upgrade leaves you with $4 to spend.  Junk Dealer lets you hit $5.  Hospital lets you hit $6.

There are many other scenarios where you'd prefer Hospital over the other two.  If there is a good engine but only one contested (regular) village available, Hospital can be a little bit of extra support.  If you opened two terminals (double Swindler is a classic), Hospital can really pay off.  If you intend to get more than one terminal over the course of the game (really, really common), Hospital can help.

If you're choosing between Hospital and Upgrade, Hospital is tons better if you have Shelters and Estate is the only $2.  Hospital is also way better than Upgrade if Poor House is on the board and not something you actually want (because otherwise every Copper becomes a bad terminal). 

This is not to say that Upgrade is terrible, of course -- you may get to turn Estates into Menageries, or Fortresses into $5s, or all sorts of other shenanigans.  The point is that these three cards all perform the same core function of cantrip trashing.  On any given board, when you'd buy one of them for $5, you should usually be willing to buy any of them for $5 because they do mostly the same thing. 

The specifics of which one is better depends on the rest of the board.  Junk Dealer has a consistent bonus.  Upgrade's effect can sometimes make it a lot better, sometimes a lot worse.  Hospital has fewer situations where it is bad and also has scenarios where it's really good.  But in general, they are all pretty close to each other.

Quote
But how many CDs have you bought?

I actually bought zero CDs because they are outdated. ;)

"CD" should be singular because it is refering to the one CD that is being left out.  So, here are example sentences:

I bought one board game. 
I bought one more game.  I bought two games.
I bought two more games.  I bought four games.
I bought one fewer game.  I bought three games.
I bought two fewer games.  I bought one game.
Logged

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2015, 06:45:30 am »
0

Quote
Ok, so the new idea is to have them increase plague/attacks if plague becomes a problem for a particular player. ie: plague spreads. However, the mechanism I'd thought of also allows a way for plague to be got rid of when another disease enters play. Somehow you are miraculously cured of one disease if another disease breaks out! It does need some work, but I think this is a good concept and helps with your suggestion that plague could break the game if not kept in check. I've actually just realised that the concept of passing to the left doesn't achieve what I wanted to which was to delay the potential attack by a turn each time, so it should have been pass to the right! However, maybe you're right about it being too chaotic and should just stay in your own play area until someone else gains a disease (anyone with a disease cannot gain a new one!)


Well, I'm not sure if it is your intention, but this is how it plays out:

The turn ends and I have 5 plague tokens.  I gain a disease, putting it in my play area. 
Next turn, I gain a plague token and use the attack. 
At the end of that turn, I have 6 plague tokens.  I immediately gain a new disease.  The previous disease goes back to the pile, I discard all plague tokens.
The turn after that, I can choose to gain a plague token to attack or not. 

It's only after this that the disease has any chance of passing around.  The situation may be a lot weirder if multiple people are at the brink.

Ah, no, I added in the caveat that a player with a disease cannot gain a new one.

Quote
In a well built deck you are liable to start drawing either good cards or all those lovely Victory cards you have been purchasing before long...hospitals and well built decks do not work well together!!

That comment was regarding your suggestion that Junk Dealer is like Lab, showing why you really can't equate +$1 with +1 card.  But you are mistaken -- Hospitals would be found in well built decks because cantrip trashers are used to create well built decks.  That is their primary purpose!

Well the Hospital helps you build a good deck, that much is obvious...it's a trasher. But the hospital doesn't play well IN a well built deck because you're just forced into trashing good cards from then on in with no bonus like those which Upgrade or Junk Dealer offer.

Quote
Also let's consider the other two $5 cantrip trashers. Upgrade and Junk Dealer. Let's imagine you have a hand adding up to $7 (a common Dominion problem) and can choose whether the last action card in your hand to play is Hospital, Upgrade or Junk Dealer. With Junk Dealer you get to play a card and trash whatever you pick up (or a lower value money card already in hand) and still have enough money to buy a Province. With Upgrade you get to choose from whatever is in your hand after picking up to Upgrade into something better and still buy something good. With Hospital you have to trash either whatever you pick up or something already in your hand with no benefit. I'm buying Upgrades and Junk Dealers every time over Hospital.......UNLESS I overpay for the hospital to remove plague, and in that case I'm paying as much as you want it to be worth or more anyway.

That is just one scenario, and you've made some bad assumptions about how you should be building the deck.  Cantrip trashers are played mostly to trash Estates and Coppers.  As I've already outlined above, Hospital is almost always better at trashing Copper than Upgrade, and occasionally better at trashing Estates.  It's also usually better at trashing Shelters.  Even in that scenario, you will probably have $5 or $6 to spend with Hospital, which is fine.

Here's a different scenario -- your hand is [cantrip trasher], 2 Swindlers and 2 Coppers and the card you draw with the trasher is another Copper.  Upgrade leaves you with $4 to spend.  Junk Dealer lets you hit $5.  Hospital lets you hit $6.

There are many other scenarios where you'd prefer Hospital over the other two.  If there is a good engine but only one contested (regular) village available, Hospital can be a little bit of extra support.  If you opened two terminals (double Swindler is a classic), Hospital can really pay off.  If you intend to get more than one terminal over the course of the game (really, really common), Hospital can help.

If you're choosing between Hospital and Upgrade, Hospital is tons better if you have Shelters and Estate is the only $2.  Hospital is also way better than Upgrade if Poor House is on the board and not something you actually want (because otherwise every Copper becomes a bad terminal). 

This is not to say that Upgrade is terrible, of course -- you may get to turn Estates into Menageries, or Fortresses into $5s, or all sorts of other shenanigans.  The point is that these three cards all perform the same core function of cantrip trashing.  On any given board, when you'd buy one of them for $5, you should usually be willing to buy any of them for $5 because they do mostly the same thing. 

The specifics of which one is better depends on the rest of the board.  Junk Dealer has a consistent bonus.  Upgrade's effect can sometimes make it a lot better, sometimes a lot worse.  Hospital has fewer situations where it is bad and also has scenarios where it's really good.  But in general, they are all pretty close to each other.

I'm still not moving. Junk Dealer and Upgrade both make it more likely you can add a better card to your deck on the turn you play them(particularly in the early game when you will not be playing so many terminals but trashing coppers and estates). Also, extra actions are not actually all that expensive a commodity in Dominion...consider crossroads, squire, villages etc...

Quote
But how many CDs have you bought?

I actually bought zero CDs because they are outdated. ;)

"CD" should be singular because it is refering to the one CD that is being left out.  So, here are example sentences:

I bought one board game. 
I bought one more game.  I bought two games.
I bought two more games.  I bought four games.
I bought one fewer game.  I bought three games.
I bought two fewer games.  I bought one game.

You're probably right, but I was thinking of it in terms of the number of games being "one more, or one fewer". As in, I bought three games, which is fewer games than four games. How many fewer games? One fewer games. However this approach may well be wrong...as then you would have to say I bought one more games instead of one more game. And that doesn't sound right! So I am almost certainly wrong.

Either that or almost everyone else in the history of the English language is wrong and I'm right...........which wouldn't be a first! :P

;)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 06:48:42 am by Vislor »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2015, 07:42:04 am »
0

Well the Hospital helps you build a good deck, that much is obvious...it's a trasher. But the hospital doesn't play well IN a well built deck because you're just forced into trashing good cards from then on in with no bonus like those which Upgrade or Junk Dealer offer.

Junk Dealer doesn't turn your unlucky hand with 4 Smithies into a double Province turn. Neither does Upgrade. Hospital can do that. The one coin is basically never worth sacrificing a good card for, and upgrading a good card into a slightly better card is fine on paper but in practice you'd rather just have the card that you actually bought in the first place, but having an extra +action when you need it and wouldn't have it otherwise is incredibly important and oftentimes, you'd gladly trash one of your Smithies for that when it happens.

I'm still not moving. Junk Dealer and Upgrade both make it more likely you can add a better card to your deck on the turn you play them(particularly in the early game when you will not be playing so many terminals but trashing coppers and estates). Also, extra actions are not actually all that expensive a commodity in Dominion...consider crossroads, squire, villages etc...

Junk Dealer and Upgrade make it more likely you can add a better card to your deck on the turn you play them, yes, but Hospital guarantees that you can add a good card to your deck on the turn you buy it. You need engine components in the early game and Hospital is an engine component, JD and Upgrade aren't.

Normally, the reason why you will not be playing so many terminals in the early game is that you don't have any +actions so you can't buy too many terminals. If you already have +actions because your trasher gave them to you for free, you will be able to buy much more terminals in the early game, which results in faster cycling, which results in even faster trashing, which results in even faster cycling, and you'll be able to add your payload super early and build an extremely strong engine.

Also, all cards are pretty expensive, because they cost a buy. You can normally have only two buys before your first shuffle, which means that adding a Crossroads is pointless because you can't possibly have more than 1 terminal Action in addition to it. Therefore, it's a bad idea to buy a splitter that does nothing useful in addition to being a splitter, and then you don't have any splitters turns 3 and 4 which means that you don't want to buy too many terminal Actions now. Buying a Hospital isn't pointless because even if we ignore the splitter part, it's better or roughly as good as many other cheap trashers, and now you have a splitter which means that you can rather safely buy another terminal now, and two more terminals on turns 3 and 4. That's insanely good, and you'll have a working engine in no time at all.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2015, 08:27:23 am »
0


Well the Hospital helps you build a good deck, that much is obvious...it's a trasher. But the hospital doesn't play well IN a well built deck because you're just forced into trashing good cards from then on in with no bonus like those which Upgrade or Junk Dealer offer.


Junk Dealer doesn't turn your unlucky hand with 4 Smithies into a double Province turn. Neither does Upgrade. Hospital can do that. The one coin is basically never worth sacrificing a good card for, and upgrading a good card into a slightly better card is fine on paper but in practice you'd rather just have the card that you actually bought in the first place, but having an extra +action when you need it and wouldn't have it otherwise is incredibly important and oftentimes, you'd gladly trash one of your Smithies for that when it happens.

Well there'll always be an edge case won't there. And even then, imagine you pick up a couple of your other amazing Hospitals with one of those smithies....you're gonna want to play them to keep the chain going aren't you? And yes, you're gonna have to trash more good cards to do that given how well built your deck is.

I'm still not moving. Junk Dealer and Upgrade both make it more likely you can add a better card to your deck on the turn you play them(particularly in the early game when you will not be playing so many terminals but trashing coppers and estates). Also, extra actions are not actually all that expensive a commodity in Dominion...consider crossroads, squire, villages etc...


Junk Dealer and Upgrade make it more likely you can add a better card to your deck on the turn you play them, yes, but Hospital guarantees that you can add a good card to your deck on the turn you buy it. You need engine components in the early game and Hospital is an engine component, JD and Upgrade aren't.

Normally, the reason why you will not be playing so many terminals in the early game is that you don't have any +actions so you can't buy too many terminals. If you already have +actions because your trasher gave them to you for free, you will be able to buy much more terminals in the early game, which results in faster cycling, which results in even faster trashing, which results in even faster cycling, and you'll be able to add your payload super early and build an extremely strong engine.

Also, all cards are pretty expensive, because they cost a buy. You can normally have only two buys before your first shuffle, which means that adding a Crossroads is pointless because you can't possibly have more than 1 terminal Action in addition to it. Therefore, it's a bad idea to buy a splitter that does nothing useful in addition to being a splitter, and then you don't have any splitters turns 3 and 4 which means that you don't want to buy too many terminal Actions now. Buying a Hospital isn't pointless because even if we ignore the splitter part, it's better or roughly as good as many other cheap trashers, and now you have a splitter which means that you can rather safely buy another terminal now, and two more terminals on turns 3 and 4. That's insanely good, and you'll have a working engine in no time at all.

Hospital is an engine component, but also an engine destroyer. It won't work too well if you keep playing it after the midgame.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2015, 08:35:01 am »
0

Well there'll always be an edge case won't there. And even then, imagine you pick up a couple of your other amazing Hospitals with one of those smithies....you're gonna want to play them to keep the chain going aren't you? And yes, you're gonna have to trash more good cards to do that given how well built your deck is.

It's not an edge case. And if you pick up a couple of your other amazing Hospitals with one of those Smithies: play one of the Hospitals, trash the other one. Why did you even buy three Hospitals in the first place?

Hospital is an engine component, but also an engine destroyer. It won't work too well if you keep playing it after the midgame.

Which is why you stop playing it when it stops being beneficial. It hardly matters when you already have a reliable engine after three shuffles.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2015, 08:40:11 am »
0


Well there'll always be an edge case won't there. And even then, imagine you pick up a couple of your other amazing Hospitals with one of those smithies....you're gonna want to play them to keep the chain going aren't you? And yes, you're gonna have to trash more good cards to do that given how well built your deck is.

It's not an edge case. And if you pick up a couple of your other amazing Hospitals with one of those Smithies: play one of the Hospitals, trash the other one. Why did you even buy three Hospitals in the first place?

So you have one hospital in your deck, allowing you to trash one card each time you play it and play one extra action. Wow. Awesome engine!

Hospital is an engine component, but also an engine destroyer. It won't work too well if you keep playing it after the midgame.


Which is why you stop playing it when it stops being beneficial. It hardly matters when you already have a reliable engine after three shuffles.

A reliable engine by playing hospital once every shuffle? Riiiiight!


ETA: Sorry, in case I sound ungrateful for feedback, I really am kind of playing Devil's advocate a bit here! Still not 100% sure about the card tbh.

And I'm guessing the answer is never buy more than 2 hospitals early game.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 08:49:36 am by Vislor »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2015, 08:50:08 am »
0

So you have one hospital in your deck, allowing you to trash one card each time you play it and play one extra action. Wow. Awesome engine!


A reliable engine by playing hospital once every shuffle? Riiiiight!

I wasn't suggesting that your first Hospital should be the only card you buy in the game.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2015, 08:54:10 am »
0

So you have one hospital in your deck, allowing you to trash one card each time you play it and play one extra action. Wow. Awesome engine!


A reliable engine by playing hospital once every shuffle? Riiiiight!


I wasn't suggesting that your first Hospital should be the only card you buy in the game.

So it depends what else is around then...much like all the other cards. Personally I'd usually wait a bit to buy Hospital so that I could overpay on it to get rid of a plague token or two. Actually, it's interesting that there is that later game backup reason to buy hospital...Also there may be a curser around and the money is often better spent early game boosting your currency somehow either with real $ or phantom $.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2015, 09:01:43 am »
0

So it depends what else is around then...much like all the other cards. Personally I'd usually wait a bit to buy Hospital so that I could overpay on it to get rid of a plague token or two. Actually, it's interesting that there is that later game backup reason to buy hospital...Also there may be a curser around and the money is often better spent early game boosting your currency somehow either with real $ or phantom $.

Yeah, it requires another splitter and a terminal action with at least +3 cards, and preferably a +buy as well. But those are usually present, and you should certainly almost always open Hospital.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9078
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2015, 02:31:34 pm »
0

The bottom line is that it is on par with Junk Dealer and Upgrade.  Different circumstances and boards will change which is preferable, but they are about equal overall.  Hospital is certainly a $5 card.
Logged

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2015, 04:05:01 am »
0

Here's a different scenario -- your hand is [cantrip trasher], 2 Swindlers and 2 Coppers and the card you draw with the trasher is another Copper.  Upgrade leaves you with $4 to spend.  Junk Dealer lets you hit $5.  Hospital lets you hit $6.

In this scenario, Upgrade is actually the best because it gives you $5 to spend and you can turn a swindler into something costing $4, so you have actually spent $9 and 2 buys. You CAN have $6 with Junk Dealer, just at the expense of one of your Swindlers, but yes, Hospital would be better than Junk Dealer in this situation as you can get rid of a copper, but once the coppers are gone from the deck what you gonna do? Also, what if you only have one swindler and a Province, say?


The bottom line is, Junk Dealer and Upgrade are useful early, mid and late game. Hospital is most useful early game, therefore it's a weaker card.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 04:56:11 am by Vislor »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2015, 04:48:07 am »
+1

In this scenario, Upgrade is actually the best because it gives you $5 to spend and you can turn a swindler into something costing $4

Trashing one of your Swindlers in that scenario is an awful idea, unless you have to do that in order to hit $5 for the last Wharf in the supply or something. You lose a Swindler and you lose an opportunity to get rid of a Copper, and you don't generally want those things to happen unless you have too few Coppers or too many Swindlers (technically possible in a Swindler game, but rare).


once the coppers are gone from the deck what you gonna do?

Play all of the cards in your deck and then, I don't know, buy two Provinces or something. Every turn.

The bottom line is, Junk Dealer and Upgrade are useful early, mid and late game. Hospital is most useful early game, therefore it's a weaker card.

Chapel is also most useful early game, so is it weaker than Moat, which is useful early, mid and late game? No. Besides, Junk Dealer is 100% useless in mid and late game. Upgrade isn't completely useless because sometimes the ability to turn $4 cards into Duchies is useful, but that's hardly better than the ability to turn a stall turn into a good turn which Hospital has.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2015, 08:54:04 am »
0

In this scenario, Upgrade is actually the best because it gives you $5 to spend and you can turn a swindler into something costing $4


Trashing one of your Swindlers in that scenario is an awful idea, unless you have to do that in order to hit $5 for the last Wharf in the supply or something. You lose a Swindler and you lose an opportunity to get rid of a Copper, and you don't generally want those things to happen unless you have too few Coppers or too many Swindlers (technically possible in a Swindler game, but rare).

It really depends what's available for $4 as to whether it's an awful idea or not. You might be able to pick up a Smithy and a Jester in that turn by upgrading one of your swindlers as opposed to just buying one Smithy. I'd prefer Smithy, Jester, Swindler, copper in my deck as opposed to Smithy, Swindler, Swindler. But the tactics of course depend on each draw.

once the coppers are gone from the deck what you gonna do?


Play all of the cards in your deck and then, I don't know, buy two Provinces or something. Every turn.

And trash a Province every time you play hospital?

The bottom line is, Junk Dealer and Upgrade are useful early, mid and late game. Hospital is most useful early game, therefore it's a weaker card.


Chapel is also most useful early game, so is it weaker than Moat, which is useful early, mid and late game? No. Besides, Junk Dealer is 100% useless in mid and late game. Upgrade isn't completely useless because sometimes the ability to turn $4 cards into Duchies is useful, but that's hardly better than the ability to turn a stall turn into a good turn which Hospital has.

You can play Junk Dealer if you want to gamble for a better card though, you may end up trashing a Swindler but if you draw a gold/smithy or something then you're laughing. I see it as a gambler's card which gives you a little to fall back on if things don't work out. Hospital doesn't.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 08:56:52 am by Vislor »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2015, 09:06:45 am »
0

It really depends what's available for $4 as to whether it's an awful idea or not. You might be able to pick up a Smithy and a Jester in that turn by upgrading one of your swindlers as opposed to just buying one Smithy. I'd prefer Smithy, Jester, Swindler, copper in my deck as opposed to Smithy, Swindler, Swindler. But the tactics of course depend on each draw.

You shouldn't prefer a Jester and a Copper over a Swindler in a deck where you want both Jester and Smithy. Copper is an awful card.

And trash a Province every time you play hospital?

Yes. Which is 0 times because you stop playing the Hospital.

You can play Junk Dealer if you want to gamble for a better card though, you may end up trashing a Swindler but if you draw a gold/smithy or something then you're laughing. I see it as a gambler's card which gives you a little to fall back on if things don't work out. Hospital doesn't.

You can also play Hospital if you want to gamble for a better card.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2015, 05:05:31 am »
0


It really depends what's available for $4 as to whether it's an awful idea or not. You might be able to pick up a Smithy and a Jester in that turn by upgrading one of your swindlers as opposed to just buying one Smithy. I'd prefer Smithy, Jester, Swindler, copper in my deck as opposed to Smithy, Swindler, Swindler. But the tactics of course depend on each draw.


You shouldn't prefer a Jester and a Copper over a Swindler in a deck where you want both Jester and Smithy. Copper is an awful card.

Not as bad as curse, ruins or estate, or any unplayable action.

And trash a Province every time you play hospital?


Yes. Which is 0 times because you stop playing the Hospital.

So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

You can play Junk Dealer if you want to gamble for a better card though, you may end up trashing a Swindler but if you draw a gold/smithy or something then you're laughing. I see it as a gambler's card which gives you a little to fall back on if things don't work out. Hospital doesn't.


You can also play Hospital if you want to gamble for a better card.

The difference is you don't get a backup bonus if the gamble doesn't pay off.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2015, 05:22:02 am »
0


It really depends what's available for $4 as to whether it's an awful idea or not. You might be able to pick up a Smithy and a Jester in that turn by upgrading one of your swindlers as opposed to just buying one Smithy. I'd prefer Smithy, Jester, Swindler, copper in my deck as opposed to Smithy, Swindler, Swindler. But the tactics of course depend on each draw.


You shouldn't prefer a Jester and a Copper over a Swindler in a deck where you want both Jester and Smithy. Copper is an awful card.

Not as bad as curse, ruins or estate, or any unplayable action.

But not much better. It doesn't draw a card or help you draw more cards with other cards and it's not a sufficient payload.
And trash a Province every time you play hospital?


Yes. Which is 0 times because you stop playing the Hospital.

So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

So does Chapel.

You can play Junk Dealer if you want to gamble for a better card though, you may end up trashing a Swindler but if you draw a gold/smithy or something then you're laughing. I see it as a gambler's card which gives you a little to fall back on if things don't work out. Hospital doesn't.


You can also play Hospital if you want to gamble for a better card.

The difference is you don't get a backup bonus if the gamble doesn't pay off.

Well, basically the only situations where you need to gamble for a better card are when your hand is full of terminals, or when your hand is full of stop cards, or when your splitter is something like Squire which doesn't give you a +card and you have a hand full of them. In situation 1, Junk Dealer has to draw a splitter, Hospital just has to draw whatever because it's already a splitter. In situation 2, Junk Dealer has to draw a splitter, which then has to draw a +cards; Hospital just has to draw a +cards because it's already a splitter. In situation 3, the extra +action will be useless, and the +coin is not. That's two cases where Hospital is a lot superior, and one case where it's slightly inferior.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2015, 06:58:46 am »
0


Not as bad as curse, ruins or estate, or any unplayable action.

But not much better. It doesn't draw a card or help you draw more cards with other cards and it's not a sufficient payload.

It's more sufficient than any of those cards I mentioned though. I'm not saying it's a good card, just that I'd rather have the combo I mentioned previously in my deck.


So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

So does Chapel.

Which costs $2.


The difference is you don't get a backup bonus if the gamble doesn't pay off.


Well, basically the only situations where you need to gamble for a better card are when your hand is full of terminals, or when your hand is full of stop cards, or when your splitter is something like Squire which doesn't give you a +card and you have a hand full of them. In situation 1, Junk Dealer has to draw a splitter, Hospital just has to draw whatever because it's already a splitter. In situation 2, Junk Dealer has to draw a splitter, which then has to draw a +cards; Hospital just has to draw a +cards because it's already a splitter. In situation 3, the extra +action will be useless, and the +coin is not. That's two cases where Hospital is a lot superior, and one case where it's slightly inferior.

Sorry, I assume splitter means +2 actions...I'm not that familiar with forum terms.

Well in that case, it just depends whether there's any more +2 actions cards around. If not, your hospital is necessary but also liable to trash engine components. Engine is probably not the ideal strategy if Hospital is the only "splitter" available.
Logged

Asper

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3681
  • Respect: +3925
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2015, 07:16:40 am »
0

So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

So does Chapel.

Which costs $2.

The same goes for Junk Dealer and Upgrade, which both cost $5. Chapel gives neither card nor action, both of which Hospital and the other two offer. The difference is which other bonus the card gives on top of it: Junk Dealer gives a coin, Upgrade gains a card, Hospital gives an action. It's not a $4. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a $5, though. Some cards are just not very good to price. If you think that another $5 Village is a bad idea (I don't think i play Festival or Bazaar that often), either change something about the card or scrap it.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2015, 07:28:25 am »
0


Not as bad as curse, ruins or estate, or any unplayable action.

But not much better. It doesn't draw a card or help you draw more cards with other cards and it's not a sufficient payload.

It's more sufficient than any of those cards I mentioned though. I'm not saying it's a good card, just that I'd rather have the combo I mentioned previously in my deck.

And then you'd lose games against opponents who wouldn't.


So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

So does Chapel.

Which costs $2.

And would still be a good card at $6. It doesn't matter that it's "worse" than Copper, what matters is that now, instead of 7 useless cards that your engine has to be able to draw, you have only one.


The difference is you don't get a backup bonus if the gamble doesn't pay off.


Well, basically the only situations where you need to gamble for a better card are when your hand is full of terminals, or when your hand is full of stop cards, or when your splitter is something like Squire which doesn't give you a +card and you have a hand full of them. In situation 1, Junk Dealer has to draw a splitter, Hospital just has to draw whatever because it's already a splitter. In situation 2, Junk Dealer has to draw a splitter, which then has to draw a +cards; Hospital just has to draw a +cards because it's already a splitter. In situation 3, the extra +action will be useless, and the +coin is not. That's two cases where Hospital is a lot superior, and one case where it's slightly inferior.

Sorry, I assume splitter means +2 actions...I'm not that familiar with forum terms.

Well in that case, it just depends whether there's any more +2 actions cards around. If not, your hospital is necessary but also liable to trash engine components. Engine is probably not the ideal strategy if Hospital is the only "splitter" available.

Splitter means a card that can "split" an action into two or more. So it means anything with +2 actions, Throne Room, King's Court, Golem, Herald, etc. And yes, it's true that engine is not the ideal strategy if Hospital is the only splitter, but engine is also not the ideal strategy when Junk Dealer is in the kingdom and there are no splitters at all.

Vislor

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2015, 08:18:00 am »
0


So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

So does Chapel.

Which costs $2.


The same goes for Junk Dealer and Upgrade, which both cost $5. Chapel gives neither card nor action, both of which Hospital and the other two offer. The difference is which other bonus the card gives on top of it: Junk Dealer gives a coin, Upgrade gains a card, Hospital gives an action. It's not a $4. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a $5, though. Some cards are just not very good to price. If you think that another $5 Village is a bad idea (I don't think i play Festival or Bazaar that often), either change something about the card or scrap it.

The same does not go for those cards are there is a fall back bonus. Hospital's bonus is useless unless you draw another action card.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9160
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +8937
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2015, 08:52:31 am »
0


So it becomes worse than copper from then on.

So does Chapel.

Which costs $2.


The same goes for Junk Dealer and Upgrade, which both cost $5. Chapel gives neither card nor action, both of which Hospital and the other two offer. The difference is which other bonus the card gives on top of it: Junk Dealer gives a coin, Upgrade gains a card, Hospital gives an action. It's not a $4. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a $5, though. Some cards are just not very good to price. If you think that another $5 Village is a bad idea (I don't think i play Festival or Bazaar that often), either change something about the card or scrap it.

The same does not go for those cards are there is a fall back bonus. Hospital's bonus is useless unless you draw another action card.

Why would you trash your Coppers unless you were going to always draw other Action cards?

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9078
    • View Profile
Re: Dominion: Pestilence
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2015, 05:27:11 pm »
+2

Vislor, you said this earlier:

The aim of this set is to encourage buying more of the Actions and finding other ways to get to Victory than just BM Province/Colony rushes which is what I seem to end up losing to most often, even if I hit a really interesting combo or Alt VP strategy.

Based on this and your recent arguments, it sounds like you aren't very familiar with engine building overall.  This may be leading you to underestimate how powerful cantrip trashing is.

There are many different kinds of engines, but a common tempo is to trash down in the early game, build up in the mid-game and then end the game very quickly after that (e.g. multiple provinces per turn, or a controlled 3-pile ending).  Sometimes the trashing and the building occur simultaneously, accelerating as the deck becomes tighter.

Hospital, Junk Dealer and Upgrade all fill a similar niche.  They are cantrip trashers that you use to trash down as you build your engine.  In almost any strategy where you'd want a Junk Dealer, you should be about as happy to have an Upgrade or a Hospital.  The primary exception is games with Shelters or with Poor House, in which case Upgrade is usually much worse.  Sometimes you'll prefer Upgrade (e.g. Fortress, boards with upgrade-chain tricks), sometimes you'll prefer Hospital (e.g. villages highly contested, lots of good terminals that you want to spam) and sometimes you'll prefer Junk Dealer (no special example; Junk Dealer doesn't have any stand-out awesome use cases, it's just generally good). 

Usually 1-2 copies of these trashers is good for engine building.  You might get more Upgrades because they can Upgrade each other to $6 cards when the trashing is done.  With Junk Dealer and Hospital, the third copy usually won't be worth the opportunity cost.  In the late game, trashers become dead cards, but that doesn't matter -- they've already cleared away more junk and made your deck much more efficient.  You may occasionally gamble with these cards, but Junk Dealer certainly isn't a better gambling card.  You can gamble with JD if you need the extra $1, just as you might gamble with Hospital if you need the extra action. 

In the kind of deck that you should be building, drawing another action card is not a problem.  In fact, a well-built engine probably won't need to gamble at all.  It'll just be drawing through the whole deck consistently.

From earlier:

Here's a different scenario -- your hand is [cantrip trasher], 2 Swindlers and 2 Coppers and the card you draw with the trasher is another Copper.  Upgrade leaves you with $4 to spend.  Junk Dealer lets you hit $5.  Hospital lets you hit $6.

In this scenario, Upgrade is actually the best because it gives you $5 to spend and you can turn a swindler into something costing $4, so you have actually spent $9 and 2 buys. You CAN have $6 with Junk Dealer, just at the expense of one of your Swindlers, but yes, Hospital would be better than Junk Dealer in this situation as you can get rid of a copper, but once the coppers are gone from the deck what you gonna do? Also, what if you only have one swindler and a Province, say?


The bottom line is, Junk Dealer and Upgrade are useful early, mid and late game. Hospital is most useful early game, therefore it's a weaker card.

That's false.  From the scenario you can surmise that this is one of the boards where the best opening was Swindler/Swindler.  You don't want a $4 cost card over that Swindler.  Also, Hospital lets you attack twice, which can be a big deal.

Your bottom line is wrong.  All three cards are most useful early game, and they are strong for the same reason -- cantrip trashing.  Late game utility is entirely dependent on the board.  Hospital's +action is as likely to be useful late game as Junk Dealer's +$1.  More likely, I'd say.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 05:31:00 pm by eHalcyon »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6  All
 

Page created in 0.19 seconds with 21 queries.