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[jotheonah]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

[rinkworks]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

Is it?  I would love to understand how to play against a Governor engine and beat it.  So far, I've not been able to.  If you leave the Governors uncontested, your opponent will drain the pile quickly enough, and if he's smart, he only ever uses them to gain Golds until a mega-turn at the end, where he gets at least 5, maybe more Provinces all in one turn.  That leaves the benefit to you being only gained Silvers, which are nice, but not generally enabling enough to beat a Governor engine to a megaturn.  In my experience, I mean.  I'm sure there are ways to counter it or outrace it or whatever, but, as I say, I've never actually managed to do so.

[jotheonah]

Maybe the people I've played against aren't as good at it as you.  I think there are definitely boards where all you can do is go Governor yourself, but there are also boards where an alternate strategy will be faster, especially with the help of the Silvers and the card-drawing. For instance, if Gardens or Silk Roads are out and you find yourself with a handful of Silver on that MegaTurn, you can convert them into victory points that might rival his Province gain. I would imagine it's about anticipating the benefit you're going to get and shaping your strategy around it to some extent.

[philosophyguy]

Alt VP strategies are suicide against Governor because the megaturn happens really fast, and 8 Provinces is going to beat 8 Silk Roads in any rush game.

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

[clb]

I would agree here.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I had a game with the wife recently where I had a number of governors and a wharf or two and she had a wharf-BM deck with a governor or two and she ended up able to outpace me. Granted, neither of us played it optimally, but I am inclined to think that her wharf deck as about as sub optimal as my governor deck, so the same would be true even if we both played it better.

[Beyond Awesome]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

I disagree. If you're also going for Governor and your opponent gains gold, those silver clog your deck and slow your engine down.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

[jsh357]

Ambassador.  It seemed so innocent.

[dondon151]

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

Against Governor, BM can buy fewer Silvers and start greening faster.

[Tdog]

Bureaucrat- Wow a free silver every time I play this! And an attack! This card destroys woodcutter!
Theif- Wow, all my treasures in my beautiful chapel deck are gone. This card must be pretty good.

[popsofctown]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

I disagree. If you're also going for Governor and your opponent gains gold, those silver clog your deck and slow your engine down.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

I think you're not accounting for the free silvers.

[Davio]

I'd like to add Bridge at this point.

When I first saw it, I thought: "You get +1 and -1 to costs, so it's basically a Silver".
Ah, my youthful ignorance.

I had overlooked the most important aspect of the card: +Buy.

I've been spending more and more time on the Bridge. Nowadays I'm actively looking for engines if Bridge is on the board and I'm finding more and more of them in places I didn't dare look before.

I just played a game with Spice Merchant to trash my Coppers, Worker's Village to give me actions, Vault to give me some draw and $ out of the Estates, Bridge of course and a handy Throne Room which goes well with a lot of these cards. Not even a couple of weeks ago, I would've thought: Vault is too weak of a drawer, Spice Merchant too weak of a trasher, etc...

The main thing about setting up for a megaturn is that it gives you a lot of control over when the game ends. In that game my opponent quickly got 3 Provinces before he stalled. I of course had 0.

But then I had one turn where it all came together and I bought out 8 3VP Gardens, 3 Bridges and a single Province to clinch the win.

Looking for engines is fun!

[ednever]

I'd like to add Bridge at this point.

When I first saw it, I thought: "You get +1 and -1 to costs, so it's basically a Silver".
Ah, my youthful ignorance.

I had overlooked the most important aspect of the card: +Buy.

I've been spending more and more time on the Bridge. Nowadays I'm actively looking for engines if Bridge is on the board and I'm finding more and more of them in places I didn't dare look before.

I just played a game with Spice Merchant to trash my Coppers, Worker's Village to give me actions, Vault to give me some draw and $ out of the Estates, Bridge of course and a handy Throne Room which goes well with a lot of these cards. Not even a couple of weeks ago, I would've thought: Vault is too weak of a drawer, Spice Merchant too weak of a trasher, etc...

The main thing about setting up for a megaturn is that it gives you a lot of control over when the game ends. In that game my opponent quickly got 3 Provinces before he stalled. I of course had 0.

But then I had one turn where it all came together and I bought out 8 3VP Gardens, 3 Bridges and a single Province to clinch the win.

Looking for engines is fun!

I'm finding "weak" bridge engines are more common than I used to think. But most of the time they aren't enough to drain the province pile.

They often ARE enough to drain the duchy pile or estate pile. You would think that wouldn't be enough to win, but I've seen it happen more than a few times lately.

Ed

[theory]

I'd like to add Bridge at this point.

When I first saw it, I thought: "You get +1 and -1 to costs, so it's basically a Silver".
Ah, my youthful ignorance.

I had overlooked the most important aspect of the card: +Buy.

I've been spending more and more time on the Bridge. Nowadays I'm actively looking for engines if Bridge is on the board and I'm finding more and more of them in places I didn't dare look before.

I just played a game with Spice Merchant to trash my Coppers, Worker's Village to give me actions, Vault to give me some draw and $ out of the Estates, Bridge of course and a handy Throne Room which goes well with a lot of these cards. Not even a couple of weeks ago, I would've thought: Vault is too weak of a drawer, Spice Merchant too weak of a trasher, etc...

The main thing about setting up for a megaturn is that it gives you a lot of control over when the game ends. In that game my opponent quickly got 3 Provinces before he stalled. I of course had 0.

But then I had one turn where it all came together and I bought out 8 3VP Gardens, 3 Bridges and a single Province to clinch the win.

Looking for engines is fun!

I think it's hard to really appreciate that +Buy until you play with Highway and realize what a difference it makes.

[werothegreat]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

Um... if you're avoiding Bishop because it lets your opponent trash, then I'm not sure if you get the whole "free VP" concept.  Just by Bishoping your starting Estates and three Coppers, your opponent already needs to get an extra Province just to beat you.  This is a lot different from Council Room, which would be a better analogue to Governor.

[Stealth Tomato]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

I disagree. If you're also going for Governor and your opponent gains gold, those silver clog your deck and slow your engine down.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

The problem you run into facing Governor isn't the speed. It's the ability to finish the game at will.
A Governor deck can pick up 1-2 Provinces and wait until it can pick up the last 2-3 in one turn, even on boards where no other deck can pull off multi-Prov turns.

[mnavratil]

The problem you run into facing Governor isn't the speed. It's the ability to finish the game at will.
A Governor deck can pick up 1-2 Provinces and wait until it can pick up the last 2-3 in one turn, even on boards where no other deck can pull off multi-Prov turns.

I think the last part is the most relevant. In the absence of any other way to get multi-provinces, using the governor for drawing becomes MUCH stronger. Every card over $8 you add to the other player's hand isn't doing them anygood, so you only need to be able to double-province for this to work out in your favor.

[Loschmidt]

I don't think I've ever underestimated a card. That's not meant to be a brag, it's just part of my nature. I look at every card and if it's use isn't immediately obiously I think, "it must be here for a reaon, I'll buy it anyway".

I remember the first time I tried chapelling. It was great. None of us knew what we were doing at all, and I just started trashing everything with no real plan. My friends thought I was mad, and then to our collective surprise I started buying golds (I was trashing silvers at this point silvers!) and then Provinces and won by miles. It is a testament to how bad we all were that I went BM + Chapel (while trashing silvers) and won. Ah good times.

Anyway this means however that I have overestimated heaps of cards.

Transmute: try as I might this card just never gets anywhere. Although Dark Ages has really helped it out.
Thief: sometimes when there's no virtual money I still try to destroy peoples economies though. Its just so hard to do it quickly enough, and it doesn't gain you friends.
Stash: I just thought there'd be more use for a silver that you put where you like.
Duchess: This'll let me Duchy rush all the time! No, no it won't. I remember when I was trying to rush a 3-pile by buying out the Border Villages/+free Duchy/+free Duchess. I'm so sad that that just doesn't work.

[axlemn]

I was convinced Counting House was a good card and underrated, though I was first sure of the opposite.  Now, I just think that games with it as optimal are a lot rarer than I'd hoped. 

I'm surprised not to see any mention of Cartographer.  I had absolutely no clue how powerful it was until I figured out how well it worked with generic Cantrip + 1 Terminal decks without super-strong trashing.  I lost 3 games handily before figuring that out. 

I underestimate Caravan and Nobles still. 

[jotheonah]

I try to go for Conspirator way more than I ought to, or with really crappy Cantrips with no plus buy (where BM would probably be faster).

[mnavratil]

I try to go for Conspirator way more than I ought to, or with really crappy Cantrips with no plus buy (where BM would probably be faster).

I do the same, not so much because I over-evaluate conspirator, but because conspirator chains are just so fun to (try and) setup.