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[Davio]

Glady, I am blessed with a good enough memory that it dates back to my starting days of Dominion. Now this was only a year ago (back when Alchemy was the newest expansion) and I'm only 26 so this isn't too hard. But I vividly remember some of the earliest games I played with friends and it was amazing. A sense of general awe came over me after that first game. I buy this card, shuffle and now it's in my hand? Wow!

Not surprisingly, this was the first deck building game I had ever played and buying and getting to play cards was such a revelation. It was a totally different game from all the Euro worker placement / cube gatherers we had played before and required quite a different mindset. With those Euro games, every cube was precious and we couldn't waste a single one of them.

So, obviously, there were a lot of cards in Dominion that I had no idea were so good until I started to learn more about the game, play on BSW, discuss on BGG and eventually move over to Isotropic and these forums.

Chapel comes to mind as the epitome of cards that I didn't understand at first. Trash money and victory points. Wait, what? I didn't understand tempo back then. How wrong I was. It's now my 2nd highest "Win Rate Given Avail" card and that's saying something. My "Win Rate With" is at 1.48 ± 0.14.

The Cursers I understood quite early, especially after having been cursed yourself you start seeing the value of giving your opponents both dead cards and negative VPs.

Torturer I actually picked up on later, because I somehow assumed it worked like Militia, never letting one get down to less than 3 cards. My jaw dropped to the floor the first time someone played multiple Torturers in a row.

Ambassador is also a card that I underrated in the beginning. Maybe that's because there's no bold text on the card. It looks so harmless and even gives free gifts.

I had problems with a lot of the Alchemy cards in the beginning, but I've grown fonder of them as time goes by.


Are there any cards that you remember misjudging horribly when you started playing or when expansions came out? Did you have a "Jack"-experience with some of the others? Tell us...

[theory]

I used to hold onto my Feasts, so that I could draw them with a Throne Room and "get my money's worth" from the Feast.

[Jimmmmm]

I distinctly remember in the early days saying to another total noob, "Yeah, there seem to be some totally pointless cards." Speaking, of course, of Chapel and Chancellor. Well, 1 out of 2's not bad.

I also remember coming to the conclusion that Village was better than Lab. Which makes me think I was buying a lot of actions.

I also didn't really get the point of Remodel at first. The first time I witnessed the Estate -> Remodel -> Gold -> Province sequence, it kind of blew my mind.

Moneylender was another one. I didn't think it was worth it, since I considered it to be a short-term benefit at the cost of a long-term loss. Of course, if I had thought for a moment and realised that the benefit was no better than that of Silver and Woodcutter, something might have clicked.

A bit more recently, my first thoughts of Develop was that it was of the same calibre as Remodel and Remake and should cost 4. But I've always found in practise it's way too fiddly and ends up forcing me to take cards I don't really want.

Also, my first thought of Governor was that it was pretty much a better Council Room. Now I'm generally hesitant to draw with it and primarily use it for Gold-gaining.

[Lekkit]

Gardens. Big Time. I've played the game for a year now. This September we had our Swedish nationals, and it was only just before then I realised how game-warping the card can be.

Ambassador was also a card that for a long time seemed like a sub-par card.

Forge and Upgrade was both bad (in our minds) for a long time, since it was so hard to get what you actually wanted from them. We played Remodel a lot more than both of those cards.

To be honest I've never felt that Chapel was a bad card. It was mainly due to the friend who introduced us to the game and explained how good it was and why before we actually played with the card. Also, I've been a lot into deck building in TCGs, and know the importance of a tight deck.

[Kahryl]

Minion.  When I first played Dominion in meatspace, neither I nor anyone at the table really understood the card.  "For a $5," I mused, "it should really do something better than reducing enemy handsizes to four, even with a plus action!" I think part of the problem is that I read "opponents discard and draw four" and "you discard and draw four" as separate choices on the list.  Another is that I simply did not comprehend the idea of a Minion chain.

[brokoli]

Like many people, I misjuged Ill-Gotten gains.

[Forge!!!]

I had always thought Ambassador and Masquerade were pretty useless, until I came on here and found out they were actually two of the best cards. It was very confusing.

[GendoIkari]

The biggest one for me was Loan. When Prosperity first came out, me and 2 of my friends who played Dominion a lot were all pretty much like "yeah, I can't possibly imagine a single situation in which you would ever consider purchasing it." It wasn't until I started playing on Iso a lot and reading these boards that I realized I was wrong.

[Kahryl]

Yeah Loan was another one I re-read a few times, trying to think of some reason I would ever purchase it.

It's especially disappointing because it's confusable with Venture - same kind of name, and a "$1 plus find another treasure and do something".  But the 'something' is so horribly worse in Loan's case, it made me do a double take.

[mnavratil]

Oh, second on Ill-Gotten Gains. I remember when someone first played the rush agianst me; at first I thought they were just playing badly and it was a horrible strategy. Turns out maybe not so much.

Also I thought ambassador was terrible for quite sometime and never bought it.

[jotheonah]

I used to think having Moneylender and Mine on the same board was a waste because why would anyone go for the Moneylender. I remember playing games in the base set where we would all automatically buy out the mines, oblivious to the concept of terminal collision.

[Captain_Frisk]

Notable mistakes for me:

Sea Hag - I figured this was like saboteur, an attack that didn't benefit the attacker at all.

Develop - Not nearly as crazy as it looks

Ill Gotten Gains - Why would i give myself a juiced-up copper to give you a curse?  I mean, yes, your deck is getting worse, but so is mine.... Oh snap, 3 piles are gone already?

Jack of All Trades - Didn't theory say we wanted less silver in our decks?  I don't care if it does 4 things... it does them all badly!

[Lekkit]

Sea Hag - I figured this was like saboteur, an attack that didn't benefit the attacker at all.

I second this.

[jotheonah]

wait, how is it not that?

[mnavratil]

I guess the point is that, unlike saboteur, Sea Hag is actually good.

[jotheonah]

Ok, I just got worried there was some benefit I didn't know about. 

[GendoIkari]

Ok, I just got worried there was some benefit I didn't know about. 

You mean you didn't see the tiny text at the bottom that says "Gain a gold, putting it into your hand"??

[brokoli]

Bridge is a card I have long underestimated, thinking about a terminal silver  .

Also,

Lookout - I thought it was too risky. But with the +action, the card is interesting.
Torturer - Choose between a militia and a crappy witch... I just forgot the +3 card...
Ghost Ship - At first, I thought militia would be strongest than ghost ship. After, I saw I was wrong.

[werothegreat]

For me:

Library - Up to seven cards?  That's only two more cards...  Smithy is better than that...  Oftentimes for me it takes actually playing a card to get an idea of its value.  I <3 Library. 

Any trasher - Why would I want to get rid of cards?  Uh durr durr...

Steward - I started off "meh" on it, but now I love it.  Dearly.

Trading Post - "But Mine is sooo much better!" Not in early game, it's not...

Saboteur - originally thought this was the most evil thing to do to someone.  Then I realized it is evil, but only in certain situations, like when you've bought 7 of the Cities, and want to sabotage your opponent's Cities.  Other than that, it's a waste of an Action.

Caravan - "It's only a cantrip - what good is that?"

Vault - "Oh.  That looks... interesting..."

Rabble - "Messing with the top of your opponent's deck isn't THAT distressing."  "NOOOO MY GRAND MARKETS!!!!"

[Taco Lobster]

Most of the "better than I initially thought" category have been covered above, so I'd like to mention those cards that I thought were OMG BROKEN! originally.

Nobles:  I get either 3 cards or 2 actions, plus victory points on top of that?!?!  That's way too powerful.

Adventurer:  I was convinced that an engine could be bulit using Adventurer, and I spent many games with the base set trying to bulid it.  It just seemed so damn good, and it cost 6, how could it not be secretly awesome and powerful?

Great Hall:  I think all the joint victory cards seemed better to me than they really are, and Great Hall seemed absolutely insane as well.  It was a victory card that didn't eat up a space in my deck.  How powerful is that?!

[Elyv]

Since I've actually understood how the game works:

IGG: "Why not just buy a witch instead of this stupid, bad silver? Aren't I clogging up both decks at the same speed"
Jack: "Wow that's a lot of words for something that really doesn't give me a whole lot."
Goons: "It's just kind of a better militia, right?" To my credit, I managed to figure this one out on my own
Governor: I misread it horribly at first and now I buy it all the time. I don't feel like I know how to play it though
Tactician: "Discard my hand? Why would I want to do that?"
Possession: "I steal their turn, that must mean this card is amazing!"
Mint: "You mean when I buy it, I can trash all my coppers?! Wow!"
Wharf: "+2 cards? That's it? Smithy gives me 3!"
I misread Farmland about 3 times
I thought Haggler, Develop, and Oasis were really good at first.

That's enough for now.

[Davio]

When the Hinterlands cards were coming out two at a time, I was quite excited about Border Village, because, well BV+Torturer, BV+City, BV+Council Room, etc...

But now that I have quite a few games under my belt since Hinterlands, the actual kingdoms I come across in the wild that make me choose BV over Gold are rare. Sure, I'll take it with a Duchy, but oftentimes it's just the Gold for me.

[Robz888]

Bureaucrat. I remember playing a few games, introducing Dominion to a friend, and explaining how Bureaucrat was just the best card. You don't have to buy any more Silvers--it gives you all the Silvers you will need!

Then when I first purchased Intrigue, my brother won a bunch of games by just buying Coppersmith (and literally nothing else but Provinces). I kept Swindling his Province, depleting the pile, and ending the game before I could get any engine going. Coppersmith seemed so good!

[rspeer]

When my friend first got Dominion and I played against him as a complete noob, I remember being in fear of his village chains. "Village... Village... Village... seven villages?! He's drawing most of his deck! He's unstoppable!"

Explorer sounded great when I read it. It puts the money right into your hand and gets better with Provinces? Watch out, everyone, here comes an Explorer-fueled Province rush!

My friends and I thought Masquerade was a weak joke card for an incredibly long time. In fact, I don't think I understood it until I made the best openings list, at which point my mind was blown by how many of the top openings involved Masquerade.

[Kore]

When I first played the game, I loved spy. It replaces itself so it always makes your deck better! Why would anyone not want to buy as many spies as possible? Chapel on the other hand seemed pretty useless, why would I want to trash my cards unless they were curses?

More recently, I underestimated bishop and goons when I got prosperity and thought that crossroads was borderline broken.

[chwhite]

Oh, boy, there are lots of these.  Like most everyone here, I didn't get Chapel and Ambassador at first.  Why would I want to trash without benefit unless Curses are around?  Sure I can pass opponents this Estate from my hand, but that's all of my action, and what's more is I'm giving them points and taking points away from me!

Torturer and Minion were two other cards I had no idea how to use until I had spent some time on Isotropic: this is probably because they require multiple plays to unlock their full potential, and I started out as basically just a BM + X player.  Watching those two chains beat me down regularly in the early days was more than anything the impetus I needed to start exploring more complicated (and more fun) chains.

Masquerade, yeah.  Back in the pre-Isotropic days, I was all like "the drawing power of Moat and a pass that doesn't matter?  For three?  Why would I ever buy this?"  Then it started to dawn on me that, hey, the trashing is useful too, and then I started to win a bunch with Masq-BM, and that's right about the time that Council Room stats came online and showed us all that, whoa, this is a sneaky powerful card.

Those are the most egregious examples, and I'm far from unique in all of them.  But even after I started to become a good player there were things I misjudged.  I thought Vault and Venture were horrible when they first came out; it took recognizing Vault's power to even think about ever buying Secret Chamber and I still don't think Venture is that good, actually.  I expected Jester to be amazing and Remake to be weak, taking away the best part of Upgrade (the fact it's a cantrip), but by the time Cornucopia came out I had enough experience to correct these misapprehensions pretty quick: a couple games in and I knew Jester was a mild annoyance and Remake was instead an awesomer Steward.  With Hinterlands, I underestimated JoaT for sure, and I knew IGG was good but didn't get how game-warping the IGG-Duchy rush was until I saw it in action.

Really, I've misjudged most of the cards at least a little bit one way or another.  Probably the only card where I was right on the money from day one is Menagerie.  I thought it was pants-wettingly powerful the second I saw it, almost always worth bending your play to make it work, and yeah it sure as hell is.

[mischiefmaker]

Loan was for sure the biggest one for me, but perhaps the card I owe the biggest debt of gratitude to. I racked my brain trying to figure out when I would ever want to buy a Loan, and when I couldn't, I asked the smartest person I know (Google), who led me to dominionstrategy.wordpress.com, who in turn introduced me to Isotropic.

Like almost everyone else, I thought Jester was going to be ridiculous and game-warping. Turns out, not so much, except possibly in multiplayer games.

[ehunt]

I thought Highway was game-breakingly good and King's Court was only OK.

I thought Transmute was ... I don't know if I ever thought it was good, but I thought there was surely some really clever use of it in the right game.

[^_^_^_^]

Province- I was eating pizza and had my plate over part of the card when first shown it by my friend (he slid it across the table) and thought it said Pizza. Later I saw the same picture with the word Province and yelled "WHAT THE COPPER IS THIS?!?"

Then I read Gardens instead of just pushing it aside as a "girls' card". Needless to say I face palmed
edit: Chapel I actually understood, as well as most of the other cards. Ironically I first saw this game when I was ~8 but never remembered the name and didn't find it till I was ~13@ theory's awesometastic blog. ^_^_^_^

[Saucery]

In my first game I bought pawns.

Many of them.

[^_^_^_^]

In my first game I bought pawns.

Many of them.

Lol. Were you playing chess before hand?

[Young Nick]

I would just like to add one reason that I feel that many overestimated Jester's ability. If I remember correctly, when Cornucopia came out, there was a lot of talk on BGG/blogs about how powerful attacks were. I remember reading through the Cornucopia card list waiting to see which attacks were in it and how awesome they would be because the Isotropic data had proved attacks to be stronger than what we could see at first glance. I can't imagine I was the only one with that sentiment and for that reason I feel like Donald could have placed the worst of attacks in Cornucopia and people still would have overestimated it like crazy.

[WHARF 2 THA BRIDGE]

I am gonna go with Ambassador, not once, but twice.

Obviously when I first started playing the game with my friends I thought it was a boring card that didn't do anything. Then my friends and I all had the Steward revolution and started to open Steward/Steward, and realized that it wasn't bad to open two terminals like that if the effect you got from them was that good. Once I figured out how powerful Ambassador was, I started to open games with Ambassador/Ambassador.

THEN the second time around, I misjudged the best way to play Ambassador. I feel kind of dumb posting this and letting the secret out, but most of the time I play a game vs. someone and we both open Ambassador/Ambassador, and then on their first Ambassador turn, they return 1 estate and play 3 coppers to buy a silver, I'm really happy. Whenever I play Ambassador, all I want to do is get my deck down to two Ambassadors and 3 coppers, THEN buy a silver, then get rid of 2 more coppers and buy another silver. Then hopefully play Ambassador and give them a copper every turn for the rest of the game unless I'm buying a province.

I remember when I got the most important Ambassador lesson. I think I was around level 25, and I played vs. someone who was in the 30s at the time. We both opened Ambassador/Ambassador, got really thin decks. Then I started to buy money, and he bought... another Ambassador. I thought this was absurd. There was a village in this game and some card drawing card. He built a deck that could draw itself with actions to spare, and spent a few turns giving me a bunch of coppers. I might have got to 3 provinces before my deck became full of coppers and unplayable. It was an easy victory for him from there.

So, first I misjudged why Ambassador is useful. THEN, I misjudged just how powerful and useful it is. I almost never veto it because unlike some of the other swingy, irritating attacks, I feel like Ambassador is a high skill card.

[Davio]

In my first game I bought pawns.

Many of them.

Lol. Were you playing chess before hand?

Hehe, I thought Pawn was awesome too. I mean, there are 6 choice combo's you can make!

I still think it's a decent card which can give you a needed Buy and when all else is unnecessary you can just cantrip it.

But so many a game did I do:
...Davio plays a Pawn, drawing 1 Card and getting 1 Action
...Davio plays a Pawn, drawing 1 Card and getting 1 Action
...Davio plays a Pawn, drawing 1 Card and getting 1 Action
...Davio plays a Pawn, drawing 1 Card and getting 1 Action
...Davio plays a Pawn, drawing 1 Card and getting 1 Action
...Davio plays a Pawn, drawing 1 Card and getting 1 Action

I think I underestimated Fishing Village in the beginning. I knew it was good, not that it was THAT good. The magic extra action can really give that next turn a giant boost.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Ironically I first saw this game when I was ~8 but never remembered the name and didn't find it till I was ~13@ theory's awesometastic blog. ^_^_^_^

Those numbers don't add up unless you were a playtester at 8 years old.

And on-topic, I don't really have many cards that I misjudged. I first discovered Dominion around October-ish time last year when someone at my local boardgame club pulled it out and taught me. At the time I was pretty new to 'real' games altogether (I'd only been going to the club for a month or two to get me out of the house and before that I'd only played Monopoly, Scrabble, Chess... The usual suspects). I fell in love with the game and looked it up on BGG and discovered the link to Isotropic. I played there a few times and then saw Theory in the lobby advertising this site and so I was pretty much here before I'd finished learning all of the cards.

I guess I underestimated a couple of cards the first time I saw them (Chapel, Ambassador, Goons etc.) but as soon as I'd been beaten by them once or seen an article about them on the blog, I knew what was going on.

[Qvist]

As many, I underestimated Chapel, Minion, Masquerade and Ambassador.
I also underestimated Huning Party at first because I didn't realize how to build a engine around it.

Then Hinterlands came out and I just link to my old post:

Ill-Gotten Gains: I don't like it. It's the only curse-giver in the set and only a one shot. And $5 is definitely overpriced. So you need trash-for-benefit cards and then you have a feast-like card with a one-shot cursing attack. Or you buy a new one for every trashed one.

Jack of all Trades: A little bit too complicated for my taste. It combines Bureacrat, Spy, drawing and trashing. I think one buy at the start is good, but I don't think it's a very good card.

And of course I overestimated Thief and later Pirate Ship and Possession.

[^_^_^_^]

Ironically I first saw this game when I was ~8 but never remembered the name and didn't find it till I was ~13@ theory's awesometastic blog. ^_^_^_^

Those numbers don't add up unless you were a playtester at 8 years old.

And on-topic, I don't really have many cards that I misjudged. I first discovered Dominion around October-ish time last year when someone at my local boardgame club pulled it out and taught me. At the time I was pretty new to 'real' games altogether (I'd only been going to the club for a month or two to get me out of the house and before that I'd only played Monopoly, Scrabble, Chess... The usual suspects). I fell in love with the game and looked it up on BGG and discovered the link to Isotropic. I played there a few times and then saw Theory in the lobby advertising this site and so I was pretty much here before I'd finished learning all of the cards.

I guess I underestimated a couple of cards the first time I saw them (Chapel, Ambassador, Goons etc.) but as soon as I'd been beaten by them once or seen an article about them on the blog, I knew what was going on.

w/e who knows. Besides I said about 8. Maybe I was 9 or 10. I don't remember that well as to ages xD. I just remember events I've been too. For instance, I remember my first base ball game @ a stadium but I don't remember my age then or what stadium it actually was lol.

[Epoch]

I can't imagine I was the only one with that sentiment and for that reason I feel like Donald could have placed the worst of attacks in Cornucopia and people still would have overestimated it like crazy.

The problem with this hypothesis is that Donald did put Fortune Teller in Cornucopia, and I don't think many people overestimated it.  While Fortune Teller isn't in many ways the "worst" attack, it's on nobody's top 5 list, and it never attracted any particular excitement.

[Morgrim7]

Sorry to preform thread necro, I just found this very interesting.
-Thief. Oh, Lord. "I can take my opponents treasure? Awesome!" And then…I realized…I might have made a mistake…

-Lookout. This probably came from me having to decide what to trash from drawing Province Gold Witch.

-Tournament. The prizes just seemed way to hard to get.

-Scrying Pool. "What? This is just a gimped Spy."

Trashing Cards, Nobles, and Scout are some others.

[Dubdubdubdub]

What? Nobody's mentioned Duke yet?

Intrigue was the only set my friends had and I didn't, so I didn't play with it much. They never bought Duke and I never really considered it, just following their lead of overbuying Ironworks, Saboteur and Nobles.

Not until my Iso days did I find out how incredible this card is and how many support can be found for it. If you stop buying Provinces and have a significant Duchy lead, the second half of the game will be much easier on you than on your opponent.


Also, Courtyard.

[brokoli]

What? Nobody's mentioned Duke yet?

Duke is the card I best understood. Each time Duke was in the game, I went for it and won, really. After on isotropic, I understood duke was not always the best strategy. But I still think this card is incredibly underrated and it is probably in my top 10 $5 best cards.

I underrated courtyard too.

[WheresMyElephant]

I can't imagine I was the only one with that sentiment and for that reason I feel like Donald could have placed the worst of attacks in Cornucopia and people still would have overestimated it like crazy.

The problem with this hypothesis is that Donald did put Fortune Teller in Cornucopia, and I don't think many people overestimated it.  While Fortune Teller isn't in many ways the "worst" attack, it's on nobody's top 5 list, and it never attracted any particular excitement.

I wasn't really around for this but it's not like the CouncilRoom data ever especially vindicated attacks like Spy and Bureaucrat. "Attacks are strong in Dominion" has always been shorthand for something like "Good attacks are REALLY strong, and the rest are sort of forgettable cards so let's forget them." Or "Curses and hand reducers are strong." I have seen this cause some confusion, especially for beginners, so I can imagine some people might have overestimated Fortune Teller. But in general I have to imagine the community had this stuff straight; again I don't think Spy was ever faddish around this time or anything like that.

[Axxle]

Spy was a super popular card when I first started playing IRL.  An attack you can spam? Yes please!

[Asklepios]

Bureaucrat. I remember playing a few games, introducing Dominion to a friend, and explaining how Bureaucrat was just the best card. You don't have to buy any more Silvers--it gives you all the Silvers you will need!

Hey, this is pretty much STILL how I view Bureacrat. For Province games it seems like a fantastic accelerator that lets you add silver to your deck while spending your precious buys on other stuff, with a moderately useful early game attack thrown in. There's quite a lot of games where I open Bureaucrat / Silver, then just BM it to Provinces...

It might not be the game's strongest card, but for games where an engine isn't worth it and theres no terminal draw to go BM + X, BM + Bureacrat is pretty solid, I think.
(For reference, my %+ given availability is 27% compared to a 23% average. My win rate with is 1.30 compared to a 0.8 average.)

In my experience a lot of people seem to write of Bureaucrat as a weak card, so don't even consider it, where a lot of the time there's a lot to be said for instantly stacked silver that costs an action and a card, but no buys, and has a low level attack tagged on it. In some kingdoms its a trap, but in others, its a game winner.

[WheresMyElephant]

In my experience a lot of people seem to write of Bureaucrat as a weak card, so don't even consider it, where a lot of the time there's a lot to be said for instantly stacked silver that costs an action and a card, but no buys, and has a low level attack tagged on it. In some kingdoms its a trap, but in others, its a game winner.

I don't mean to lecture a far superior Bureaucrat (and overall) player but I had a bit of an epiphany when I realized Bureaucrat's attack is basically just pushing a card out of your opponent's future hand to offset the space in YOUR hand that Bureaucrat took up. It's like Minion's attack: just leveling the playing field.

Not quite leveling it all the way like Minion does, of course: it's unreliable, kicks in a turn later than Minion, and you don't get your Action back. So I guess that shows you what it takes to balance free Silver! We can probably agree a Bureaucrat with +1 Action would be very strong, and I'd venture that Bureaucrat with the Minion attack might be surprisingly good too.

See also: Sea Hag. Apropos of this thread, when I first saw Sea Hag I thought its little top-decking gimmick could never make up for its lack of a positive benefit. Even after I learned better, it was always sort of a mystery until I realized the top-decking makes your opponent share your misery (and the rest is just Witch, plus of course the small chance of discarding a critical card.)

[Davio]

Hello, dear old topic of mine.

I would just like to ad.... um, Native Village?
It's a card that I just can't get into my system and only buy on spare $2's. And when I don't feel like getting a lot of them I mostly skip them anyway. Native Village is probably the single reason I'm not #1 in the rankings. Yes, that must be it!

Also Noble Brigand, I used to think it's only slightly better than Thief (still bad), but I can see how it's better now with the on-buy attack. Especially when you're both entering the greening stage, grabbing a single Gold from your opponent can be massive.

And Cache. I don't think I really misjudged it, but fearing the Coppers I would just stick to Silver. Then again variance is the reason we can even get a few Provinces, so we should embrace it and Cache provides it.

[Kahryl]

Gaining a silver is great and I think that is an effect that is unjustly scoffed at (I like Explorer a LOT more than most people here), but the problem with Bureaucrat is it does nothing for you RIGHT NOW. The $2 or +2cards "tacked on" to other attacks and utilities are really the majority of their power. Topdecking the silver is not at all a replacement for this because you're basically Fortune Telling this turn.

[jotheonah]

Torturer, man. I was like "Your opponent gets to CHOOSE what attack hits them? This is like the best attack to be hit with ever!"

"Oh, it's discard two cards, not discard down to three. Well that does kind of suck"

"Oh, it draws a ton of cards for your opponent to make it really easy to chain a bunch of them"

"Oh crap I just discarded my entire hand the third time in a row, maybe it's time to start taking curses?"

Major learning curve with that one!

[jotheonah]

Oh, and then the next one "Oh, if I buy them myself I can torture my opponents, and that's fun." That's of course the point where you fall in love.

[eHalcyon]

The first time I was introduced to Dominion was when my friends bought me a copy of Intrigue for Christmas (just 7 months ago!), and we played a bunch of games with Intrigue and their Base set.  They didn't know any of the Intrigue cards either.

The first game we played with Saboteur was brutal, and we ended up thinking it was a broken card.  It was a 4-player game.  One guy opened 5/2 and picked up Saboteur.  The first time he played it and we all lost one of our shiny action cards, we were incensed.  We all decided we needed Saboteur too.  The first guy bought a TR and managed to match it up next hand.  His double Saboteur wiped out our Saboteurs.

We all thought the guy with the TR-Saboteur (and probably a couple other Saboteurs at that point?) had the game in the bag and we all decided to forfeit.  And then ban Saboteur from all future games.

I found f.ds because I went to find out how the designer could have allowed such a game-breaking card.  I know better now...

[Captain_Frisk]

Torturer, man. I was like "Your opponent gets to CHOOSE what attack hits them? This is like the best attack to be hit with ever!"

"Oh, it's discard two cards, not discard down to three. Well that does kind of suck"

"Oh, it draws a ton of cards for your opponent to make it really easy to chain a bunch of them"

"Oh crap I just discarded my entire hand the third time in a row, maybe it's time to start taking curses?"

Major learning curve with that one!

Once you've been forced to discard your entire hand once, or take a whole bunch of curses, most of the time you've already lost.  I'm not sure how much extra win% there is to be had in figuring out when to take non obvious curses (trashers in hand, forge, etc.)  I'm sure its non zero, but I think I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've survived being on the losing side of torturer lock.

[jotheonah]

I think what's key is, because you take the curses in hand, you have a little time before they start to wreck your deck. So if you're able to quickly adapt to fight the Torturer lock, your best bet will be to do it right away. If, instead, you scrap those early turns by discarding, you're just giving them free turns to keep building that engine.

[Tombolo]

I think I managed to skip the whole "village idiot" phase, but I am only just now getting past being a Great Hall idiot.

[gman314]

I think I managed to skip the whole "village idiot" phase, but I am only just now getting past being a Great Hall idiot.

When first playing with Intrigue, my brothers and I would buy (or Ironworks) piles of Great Halls and would play Pawns for +1 Card, +1 Action every time. Literally. We missed the Village Idiot, but we certainly were Cantrip Idiots.

[Robz888]

When i first played Dominion, I was never a Village Idiot. I was a "One of Every Card Idiot." I would go about my business like this: "Well, I have a Village, a Milita, a Moat, a Cellar... now I need a Moneylender, a Laboratory, a Spy, okay..."

[AJD]

When i first played Dominion, I was never a Village Idiot. I was a "One of Every Card Idiot." I would go about my business like this: "Well, I have a Village, a Milita, a Moat, a Cellar... now I need a Moneylender, a Laboratory, a Spy, okay..."

And this is why Cornucopia was invented!

[gman314]

Village Idiots didn't get an expansion, but they did get a couple of cards: Vineyards, Scrying Pool and Fishing Village.

[ycz6]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

[Morgrim7]

I was never a Village idiot either. I was a "random buy" idiot. "My opponent bought a Militia? Cool. Now how about some Bureaucrats."

[Axxle]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

But you need a province to get Diadem 

[Grujah]

Village Idiots didn't get an expansion, but they did get a couple of cards: Vineyards, Scrying Pool and Fishing Village.

Hey, and University? It's a village that gains you a Village! (Border Village is too).

[Lhurgoyf]

Sea Hag - I figured this was like saboteur, an attack that didn't benefit the attacker at all.

I actually gave another player a Sea Hag via Trickser, because noone had bought it early game and we all thought it was useless. (No other cursers, maybe apart from Trickser, were available... hm maybe there were already some of the curses gone to justify this, but there still were some)

[eHalcyon]

Sea Hag - I figured this was like saboteur, an attack that didn't benefit the attacker at all.

I actually gave another player a Sea Hag via Trickser, because noone had bought it early game and we all thought it was useless. (No other cursers, maybe apart from Trickser, were available... hm maybe there were already some of the curses gone to justify this, but there still were some)

I think you are talking about Swindler when you say Trickster, right?  Probably a translation thing.  Neat!

[clb]

Trickster sounds like Jester to me, but Swindler makes more sense.

[Thisisnotasmile]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

But you need a province to get Diadem 

Not necessarily. There's a puzzle in there somewhere but I don't think it's interesting enough.

[Grujah]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

But you need a province to get Diadem 

Not necessarily. There's a puzzle in there somewhere but I don't think it's interesting enough.

Thief. Too bad it ain't a village.

[Jack Rudd]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

But you need a province to get Diadem 

Not necessarily. There's a puzzle in there somewhere but I don't think it's interesting enough.

Thief, Possession, Masquerade

[Morgrim7]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

But you need a province to get Diadem 

Not necessarily. There's a puzzle in there somewhere but I don't think it's interesting enough.

Thief, Possession, Masquerade

Or some stupid person could Amb/Masq you a Province.

[Tonks77]

Trickster sounds like Jester to me, but Swindler makes more sense.

Trickser is the German card name for Swindler. Jester is tranlated to Harlekin.

[LastFootnote]

You forgot the biggest one: Diadem.

But you need a province to get Diadem 

Not necessarily. There's a puzzle in there somewhere but I don't think it's interesting enough.

Thief, Possession, Masquerade

Or some stupid person could Amb/Masq you a Province.

Ambassador can neither return nor cause others to gain Diadem. Also, are these spoiler tags really necessary?

[werothegreat]

Trickster sounds like Jester to me, but Swindler makes more sense.

Trickser is the German card name for Swindler. Jester is tranlated to Harlekin.

Is there a list of translations somewhere?

[Qvist]

In German or all other languages?
On http://www.dominionblog.de you can read the German card names in the dropdown of the main menu.

[Vindaloo]

For me it was definitely Ambassador, such a brutal card and still I don't have the full hang of it.

Two other cards I have problems with are Governor and Fool's Gold. I know both are very powerful but I rarely win when they are on the board.

[werothegreat]

In German or all other languages?
On http://www.dominionblog.de you can read the German card names in the dropdown of the main menu.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Trading Post is Handelsposten in German.  HANDELSPOSTEN.  That is my new favorite word.

[gman314]

For me it was definitely Ambassador, such a brutal card and still I don't have the full hang of it.

Two other cards I have problems with are Governor and Fool's Gold. I know both are very powerful but I rarely win when they are on the board.

Ambassador: Just play 3+ player games. Then it's not so powerful. In three player, if all three players are playing it at the same rate, then for every time you play it you get rid of two cards but also gain two cards. And that's the best case. But in two player, you can get rid of two for every one card you gain.

Governor: Use Governor to gain gold. Then, use the draw to get Governors and Gold together. Then, remodel Gold to Provinces.

Fool's Gold: Get early + Buy to buy as many as possible. Trash pretty much everything that's not Fool's Gold. Draw a pile of cards together. Most should be Fool's Gold. Use your + Buy card to take advantage of all your money.

[jotheonah]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

[rinkworks]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

Is it?  I would love to understand how to play against a Governor engine and beat it.  So far, I've not been able to.  If you leave the Governors uncontested, your opponent will drain the pile quickly enough, and if he's smart, he only ever uses them to gain Golds until a mega-turn at the end, where he gets at least 5, maybe more Provinces all in one turn.  That leaves the benefit to you being only gained Silvers, which are nice, but not generally enabling enough to beat a Governor engine to a megaturn.  In my experience, I mean.  I'm sure there are ways to counter it or outrace it or whatever, but, as I say, I've never actually managed to do so.

[jotheonah]

Maybe the people I've played against aren't as good at it as you.  I think there are definitely boards where all you can do is go Governor yourself, but there are also boards where an alternate strategy will be faster, especially with the help of the Silvers and the card-drawing. For instance, if Gardens or Silk Roads are out and you find yourself with a handful of Silver on that MegaTurn, you can convert them into victory points that might rival his Province gain. I would imagine it's about anticipating the benefit you're going to get and shaping your strategy around it to some extent.

[philosophyguy]

Alt VP strategies are suicide against Governor because the megaturn happens really fast, and 8 Provinces is going to beat 8 Silk Roads in any rush game.

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

[clb]

I would agree here.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I had a game with the wife recently where I had a number of governors and a wharf or two and she had a wharf-BM deck with a governor or two and she ended up able to outpace me. Granted, neither of us played it optimally, but I am inclined to think that her wharf deck as about as sub optimal as my governor deck, so the same would be true even if we both played it better.

[Beyond Awesome]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

I disagree. If you're also going for Governor and your opponent gains gold, those silver clog your deck and slow your engine down.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

[jsh357]

Ambassador.  It seemed so innocent.

[dondon151]

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

Against Governor, BM can buy fewer Silvers and start greening faster.

[Tdog]

Bureaucrat- Wow a free silver every time I play this! And an attack! This card destroys woodcutter!
Theif- Wow, all my treasures in my beautiful chapel deck are gone. This card must be pretty good.

[popsofctown]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

I disagree. If you're also going for Governor and your opponent gains gold, those silver clog your deck and slow your engine down.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

I think you're not accounting for the free silvers.

[Davio]

I'd like to add Bridge at this point.

When I first saw it, I thought: "You get +1 and -1 to costs, so it's basically a Silver".
Ah, my youthful ignorance.

I had overlooked the most important aspect of the card: +Buy.

I've been spending more and more time on the Bridge. Nowadays I'm actively looking for engines if Bridge is on the board and I'm finding more and more of them in places I didn't dare look before.

I just played a game with Spice Merchant to trash my Coppers, Worker's Village to give me actions, Vault to give me some draw and $ out of the Estates, Bridge of course and a handy Throne Room which goes well with a lot of these cards. Not even a couple of weeks ago, I would've thought: Vault is too weak of a drawer, Spice Merchant too weak of a trasher, etc...

The main thing about setting up for a megaturn is that it gives you a lot of control over when the game ends. In that game my opponent quickly got 3 Provinces before he stalled. I of course had 0.

But then I had one turn where it all came together and I bought out 8 3VP Gardens, 3 Bridges and a single Province to clinch the win.

Looking for engines is fun!

[ednever]

I'd like to add Bridge at this point.

When I first saw it, I thought: "You get +1 and -1 to costs, so it's basically a Silver".
Ah, my youthful ignorance.

I had overlooked the most important aspect of the card: +Buy.

I've been spending more and more time on the Bridge. Nowadays I'm actively looking for engines if Bridge is on the board and I'm finding more and more of them in places I didn't dare look before.

I just played a game with Spice Merchant to trash my Coppers, Worker's Village to give me actions, Vault to give me some draw and $ out of the Estates, Bridge of course and a handy Throne Room which goes well with a lot of these cards. Not even a couple of weeks ago, I would've thought: Vault is too weak of a drawer, Spice Merchant too weak of a trasher, etc...

The main thing about setting up for a megaturn is that it gives you a lot of control over when the game ends. In that game my opponent quickly got 3 Provinces before he stalled. I of course had 0.

But then I had one turn where it all came together and I bought out 8 3VP Gardens, 3 Bridges and a single Province to clinch the win.

Looking for engines is fun!

I'm finding "weak" bridge engines are more common than I used to think. But most of the time they aren't enough to drain the province pile.

They often ARE enough to drain the duchy pile or estate pile. You would think that wouldn't be enough to win, but I've seen it happen more than a few times lately.

Ed

[theory]

I'd like to add Bridge at this point.

When I first saw it, I thought: "You get +1 and -1 to costs, so it's basically a Silver".
Ah, my youthful ignorance.

I had overlooked the most important aspect of the card: +Buy.

I've been spending more and more time on the Bridge. Nowadays I'm actively looking for engines if Bridge is on the board and I'm finding more and more of them in places I didn't dare look before.

I just played a game with Spice Merchant to trash my Coppers, Worker's Village to give me actions, Vault to give me some draw and $ out of the Estates, Bridge of course and a handy Throne Room which goes well with a lot of these cards. Not even a couple of weeks ago, I would've thought: Vault is too weak of a drawer, Spice Merchant too weak of a trasher, etc...

The main thing about setting up for a megaturn is that it gives you a lot of control over when the game ends. In that game my opponent quickly got 3 Provinces before he stalled. I of course had 0.

But then I had one turn where it all came together and I bought out 8 3VP Gardens, 3 Bridges and a single Province to clinch the win.

Looking for engines is fun!

I think it's hard to really appreciate that +Buy until you play with Highway and realize what a difference it makes.

[werothegreat]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

Um... if you're avoiding Bishop because it lets your opponent trash, then I'm not sure if you get the whole "free VP" concept.  Just by Bishoping your starting Estates and three Coppers, your opponent already needs to get an extra Province just to beat you.  This is a lot different from Council Room, which would be a better analogue to Governor.

[Stealth Tomato]

Yeah the all-governor engine is great. Trouble is, it's even better for your opponent, who's getting all the benefits while having whole turns of his own to be productive. Rather like Bishop in that regard.

I disagree. If you're also going for Governor and your opponent gains gold, those silver clog your deck and slow your engine down.

I'm pretty sure that the only feasible way of beating a Governor rush (outside of building a faster engine, which is a tough proposition) is to go with some sort of really strong BM.

I don't know. I usually win within 11-13 turns playing Governor. BM doesn't tend to win that fast even with Envoy, Jack, or Smithy to help.

The problem you run into facing Governor isn't the speed. It's the ability to finish the game at will.
A Governor deck can pick up 1-2 Provinces and wait until it can pick up the last 2-3 in one turn, even on boards where no other deck can pull off multi-Prov turns.

[mnavratil]

The problem you run into facing Governor isn't the speed. It's the ability to finish the game at will.
A Governor deck can pick up 1-2 Provinces and wait until it can pick up the last 2-3 in one turn, even on boards where no other deck can pull off multi-Prov turns.

I think the last part is the most relevant. In the absence of any other way to get multi-provinces, using the governor for drawing becomes MUCH stronger. Every card over $8 you add to the other player's hand isn't doing them anygood, so you only need to be able to double-province for this to work out in your favor.

[Loschmidt]

I don't think I've ever underestimated a card. That's not meant to be a brag, it's just part of my nature. I look at every card and if it's use isn't immediately obiously I think, "it must be here for a reaon, I'll buy it anyway".

I remember the first time I tried chapelling. It was great. None of us knew what we were doing at all, and I just started trashing everything with no real plan. My friends thought I was mad, and then to our collective surprise I started buying golds (I was trashing silvers at this point silvers!) and then Provinces and won by miles. It is a testament to how bad we all were that I went BM + Chapel (while trashing silvers) and won. Ah good times.

Anyway this means however that I have overestimated heaps of cards.

Transmute: try as I might this card just never gets anywhere. Although Dark Ages has really helped it out.
Thief: sometimes when there's no virtual money I still try to destroy peoples economies though. Its just so hard to do it quickly enough, and it doesn't gain you friends.
Stash: I just thought there'd be more use for a silver that you put where you like.
Duchess: This'll let me Duchy rush all the time! No, no it won't. I remember when I was trying to rush a 3-pile by buying out the Border Villages/+free Duchy/+free Duchess. I'm so sad that that just doesn't work.

[axlemn]

I was convinced Counting House was a good card and underrated, though I was first sure of the opposite.  Now, I just think that games with it as optimal are a lot rarer than I'd hoped. 

I'm surprised not to see any mention of Cartographer.  I had absolutely no clue how powerful it was until I figured out how well it worked with generic Cantrip + 1 Terminal decks without super-strong trashing.  I lost 3 games handily before figuring that out. 

I underestimate Caravan and Nobles still. 

[jotheonah]

I try to go for Conspirator way more than I ought to, or with really crappy Cantrips with no plus buy (where BM would probably be faster).

[mnavratil]

I try to go for Conspirator way more than I ought to, or with really crappy Cantrips with no plus buy (where BM would probably be faster).

I do the same, not so much because I over-evaluate conspirator, but because conspirator chains are just so fun to (try and) setup.