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Author Topic: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack  (Read 13079 times)

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LastFootnote

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Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« on: January 04, 2015, 05:29:28 pm »
+6

In my search for fresh-feeling Spy attacks, here's an idea i came up with.

Magistrate
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+$2. Each other player looks through his discard pile. He may put a Copper from it onto his deck. Otherwise, he gains a Copper.

Any thoughts? Will the Copper pile run out too fast in a 4-player game? Too weak? Too strong?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:44:20 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2015, 06:04:54 pm »
+1

Looks dangerous. The player who falls behind in the Magistrate-playing race is likely to have his deck somethered in a sea of yellow junk. It may be usable, but I'd tread carefully.
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2015, 06:08:12 pm »
+2

You might want to make it $4.  Opening with two of them and really slowing down other's cycling could hurt a lot.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2015, 07:49:46 pm »
+1

Possible huge first-player advantage here... if both players open with it, and player 1 draws it on turn 3, then player 2 has no discard pile to look through; auto copper gain.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2015, 08:34:11 pm »
0

Looks dangerous. The player who falls behind in the Magistrate-playing race is likely to have his deck somethered in a sea of yellow junk. It may be usable, but I'd tread carefully.

Yes, this is certainly possible. I suppose I could have it gain the player that plays it a Silver or some such a la Bureaucrat. I'll see how it tests.

You might want to make it $4.  Opening with two of them and really slowing down other's cycling could hurt a lot.

Quite possibly. I'm definitely open to making it cost $4.

Possible huge first-player advantage here... if both players open with it, and player 1 draws it on turn 3, then player 2 has no discard pile to look through; auto copper gain.

I guess how huge the advantage it depends on how much the attack really hurts. I don't think of gaining a Copper as particularly harsh, but it might play out that way.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, guys. I'm going to test it as-is. If double-Magistrate opening is too harsh (or if it's just too easy to spam them in general), I'll try sudgy's suggestion. In the meantime, here's a mockup for fun.


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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 09:12:03 pm »
+1

I doubt the attack is particularly harsh. It could be fine as is.

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2015, 05:07:26 am »
+1

If it's too harsh, it might be worth trying out Sea Hag's clause: discard the top card of the deck first. Then of course, it may be too weak (compared to Fortune Teller).
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 08:54:57 am »
+2

If it's too harsh, it might be worth trying out Sea Hag's clause: discard the top card of the deck first. Then of course, it may be too weak (compared to Fortune Teller).

Well, if the card it discards is a Copper, it doesn't do anything. Which is very likely.
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2015, 10:38:31 am »
0

For my actual test, I have decided to give it +1 Buy and cost it at $4.

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 01:47:15 pm »
+4

The otherwise is weird: Can you choose to try to topdeck a Copper, have it fizzle (no Coppers in discard) and thus not gain a new Copper?

Maybe following Mountebank's wording is better:

Each other player looks through his discard pile and may put a Copper from it on top of his deck. If he doesn't, he gains a Copper.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 03:01:27 pm »
0

The otherwise is weird: Can you choose to try to topdeck a Copper, have it fizzle (no Coppers in discard) and thus not gain a new Copper?

Maybe following Mountebank's wording is better:

Each other player looks through his discard pile and may put a Copper from it on top of his deck. If he doesn't, he gains a Copper.

Agreed. Your wording is more clear.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 04:56:41 pm »
+1

The defending player needs to reveal the card being top decked or else others do not have permission to see that it is a Copper.

There does not need to be a Sea Hag clause because putting 5 Coppers onto a player's deck guarantees $5 as opposed to a dead turn.

I do not like the name Bookkeeper because it implies drawing cards (in line with Ruined Library and Library). Adding a +Buy seems weird, if only because there are no other junkers with +Buy.

The fact that Copper junking is an option even with Coppers in the discard pile makes it much weaker when it probably does not need to be. Even if the top decking was mandatory the Copper junking would be nearly ineffectual (i.e. only when a player is at the start of a shuffle) unless there is really fast trashing in the Kingdom.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 06:27:41 pm »
+6

I do not like the name Bookkeeper because it implies drawing cards (in line with Ruined Library and Library). Adding a +Buy seems weird, if only because there are no other junkers with +Buy.

"Bookkeeper" has more to do with "Counting House", "Moneylender" and "Taxman" than to libraries and literary books.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 06:28:46 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 10:13:39 pm »
+1

I do not like the name Bookkeeper because it implies drawing cards (in line with Ruined Library and Library). Adding a +Buy seems weird, if only because there are no other junkers with +Buy.
"Bookkeeper" has more to do with "Counting House", "Moneylender" and "Taxman" than to libraries and literary books.
True enough, though none of those provide +Buys either.
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 10:19:37 pm »
+1

Adding a +Buy seems weird, if only because there are no other junkers with +Buy.
Was Mountebank weird because there were no other junkers with +coins?
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 10:20:59 pm »
+1

Yes, mountebank is weird.
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 11:09:16 pm »
+2

I have mixed feelings about the +buy. The thing is that one thing +buy allows is building up on extra copper in games where you want more Copper (Gardens, Duke, etc). And this card forces opponents to gain extra copper. So it's like a synergy and anti-synergy at the same time. If a Copper-based strategy was almost but not quite viable, your opponent playing this card will make it viable, and you'll want the card yourself for the buy.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2015, 11:14:14 pm »
+2

The defending player needs to reveal the card being top decked or else others do not have permission to see that it is a Copper.



There does not need to be a Sea Hag clause because putting 5 Coppers onto a player's deck guarantees $5 as opposed to a dead turn.

Perhaps more importantly, it doesn't need the clause because you can always opt to gain a Copper instead.

I do not like the name Bookkeeper because it implies drawing cards (in line with Ruined Library and Library). Adding a +Buy seems weird, if only because there are no other junkers with +Buy.

As eHalcyon alluded, a bookkeeper is a person who keeps books of accounts, not a librarian.

The fact that Copper junking is an option even with Coppers in the discard pile makes it much weaker when it probably does not need to be. Even if the top decking was mandatory the Copper junking would be nearly ineffectual (i.e. only when a player is at the start of a shuffle) unless there is really fast trashing in the Kingdom.

I'm confused. Could you say that again in a different way?
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2015, 11:35:49 pm »
+2

True enough, though none of those provide +Buys either.

I don't think "It's never been done before" is a good reason to not do something on a Dominion card. In fact it's a point in the thing's favor. There may be other good reasons not to do the thing, but that isn't one of them.

In this particular case, I could see +1 Buy being a poor match for a junker. But I'm hoping this will primarily be a bureaucrat-like attack, and that seems fine. You could argue that it's bad that a cheap source of +Buy (which you might buy for that reason alone) also happens to be an Attack. You wanted the +Buy but now you're also attacking the other players. That might be the case, though it hasn't stopped me from buying Taxman for the Treasure upgrades or Soothsayer for the Gold gaining. Or any of the Smithy attacks for the +3 Cards. Anyway we'll see how it plays out in practice.
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2015, 07:15:03 am »
+2

The fact that Copper junking is an option even with Coppers in the discard pile makes it much weaker when it probably does not need to be. Even if the top decking was mandatory the Copper junking would be nearly ineffectual (i.e. only when a player is at the start of a shuffle) unless there is really fast trashing in the Kingdom.

I'm confused. Could you say that again in a different way?
When a player has Coppers in his discard pile, he now has a choice: gain a Copper or top deck a Copper. Attacks that give players choices are naturally weak because, even if both effects hurt, the player will always choose the option that hurts him less.

Top-decking the Copper will likely be the superior option to gaining a Copper unless you know an immediate reason you don't want a Copper on top of your deck (or you want Coppers, but then no-one is buying Magistrate/Bookkeepers anyway). Worst case scenario would be a four-player game where each player has more than one Magistrate: Then gaining a Copper or two might be worth it just to eventually get to shuffle your deck--but even then I'm not sure I'd mind so many $5 turns. Assuming top decking a Copper is usually preferable, the option to gain a Copper will now only hit when it is either (1) good for the player being hit or (2) at the start of a shuffle so there is no option.

True enough, though none of those provide +Buys either.

I don't think "It's never been done before" is a good reason to not do something on a Dominion card. In fact it's a point in the thing's favor. There may be other good reasons not to do the thing, but that isn't one of them.

In this particular case, I could see +1 Buy being a poor match for a junker. But I'm hoping this will primarily be a bureaucrat-like attack, and that seems fine. You could argue that it's bad that a cheap source of +Buy (which you might buy for that reason alone) also happens to be an Attack. You wanted the +Buy but now you're also attacking the other players. That might be the case, though it hasn't stopped me from buying Taxman for the Treasure upgrades or Soothsayer for the Gold gaining. Or any of the Smithy attacks for the +3 Cards. Anyway we'll see how it plays out in practice.
I was really thinking something along the lines of what GendoIkari said, but could not quite formulate it. It struck me as odd, but GendoIkari hit the nail on the head regarding its anti-synergy, but I will see if I can explain some other knee-jerk reactions to it.
+Cards and +$ are rather simple effects that combine fine with junking because they are simple, low-power abilities that are always useful in a deck, but +Actions and +Buys are significantly more board dependent and are often the reason that cards are bought. Ambassador, Soothsayer, and Torturer are probably the only junkers I buy for both their effect for me and their attack on other players, and I find those cards to be rather degenerate and un-fun. What I'm saying is: Most cards that junk aim to junk and do not do much else and the cards that do are unreasonably powerful in a way that I am not sure is healthy for the game. It is probably okay because Copper junking is weak.
The best argument I can see for Bookkeeper having a +Buy is that it is a bonus that does not work well in multiples to reduce the card's efficiency when stacked (as its Copper top decking gets painful enough when repeated).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2015, 01:21:48 pm »
+2

True enough, though none of those provide +Buys either.

I don't think "It's never been done before" is a good reason to not do something on a Dominion card. In fact it's a point in the thing's favor. There may be other good reasons not to do the thing, but that isn't one of them.

In this particular case, I could see +1 Buy being a poor match for a junker. But I'm hoping this will primarily be a bureaucrat-like attack, and that seems fine. You could argue that it's bad that a cheap source of +Buy (which you might buy for that reason alone) also happens to be an Attack. You wanted the +Buy but now you're also attacking the other players. That might be the case, though it hasn't stopped me from buying Taxman for the Treasure upgrades or Soothsayer for the Gold gaining. Or any of the Smithy attacks for the +3 Cards. Anyway we'll see how it plays out in practice.

One thing is that now that there's a +buy, this looks like woodcutter. For an increase from $3 to $4 in cost, you get the attack. Considering how little of a difference $3 and $4 are in cost, it seems like an attack, even a not super-painful one, is a lot to get for that cost increase. Obviously though, Woodcutter is one of the, if not the, weakest 3s.
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2015, 02:08:43 pm »
0

I have mixed feelings about the +buy. The thing is that one thing +buy allows is building up on extra copper in games where you want more Copper (Gardens, Duke, etc). And this card forces opponents to gain extra copper. So it's like a synergy and anti-synergy at the same time. If a Copper-based strategy was almost but not quite viable, your opponent playing this card will make it viable, and you'll want the card yourself for the buy.

Well, hopefully that'll be an interesting interaction rather than a bad one. And of course sometimes you and your opponent will be pursuing different strategies.

One thing is that now that there's a +buy, this looks like woodcutter. For an increase from $3 to $4 in cost, you get the attack. Considering how little of a difference $3 and $4 are in cost, it seems like an attack, even a not super-painful one, is a lot to get for that cost increase. Obviously though, Woodcutter is one of the, if not the, weakest 3s.

I am 100% OK with this. Woodcutter is so weak, and even though they're close, $3 is not $4. The important things are that it's not too strong for $4 and that it's not strictly better than a cards that's the same price or higher. The second criterion is true and the first will play out in testing.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 02:11:08 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2015, 03:31:36 pm »
+1

Attacks that give players choices are naturally weak because, even if both effects hurt, the player will always choose the option that hurts him less.

This is incorrect.  Attacks that give the targets choices are naturally weaker, which is not the same as being naturally weak.  Torturer is still strong, despite giving other players a choice.  But for something more drastic, consider the following:

Lose-Lose
$3 - Action-Attack
+$3
Each other player chooses one: he discards 4 cards, or he gains 4 Curses.



The actual consideration to make is whether the choices are balanced enough that the decision is interesting for other players.  For this particular attack, it may be true that top-decking a Copper is often superior, so the decision is not too interesting.  Even so, I think it may be OK.  I am still against unchecked Copper junking, and the topdecking option may be a fine check.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2015, 03:35:56 pm »
+1

Attacks that give players choices are naturally weak because, even if both effects hurt, the player will always choose the option that hurts him less.

This is incorrect.  Attacks that give the targets choices are naturally weaker, which is not the same as being naturally weak.  Torturer is still strong, despite giving other players a choice.  But for something more drastic, consider the following:

Lose-Lose
$3 - Action-Attack
+$3
Each other player chooses one: he discards 4 cards, or he gains 4 Curses.



The actual consideration to make is whether the choices are balanced enough that the decision is interesting for other players.  For this particular attack, it may be true that top-decking a Copper is often superior, so the decision is not too interesting.  Even so, I think it may be OK.  I am still against unchecked Copper junking, and the topdecking option may be a fine check.

Mountebank gives other players a choice... it COULD have forced you to discard a curse if you have one rather than choose to gain the Curse+Copper, but it didn't. And the choice in Mountebank isn't balanced at all.. you choose to discard the Curse 95% of the time. Of course you don't  ALWAYS have a choice to make, but that's exactly the same with Bookkeeper. You might not have any coppers in the discard, and then you don't have the choice to make. The choice on Bookkeeper is much more balanced than Mountebank.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 03:38:25 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Copper-Based Spy/Witch Attack
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2015, 03:53:48 pm »
0

GendoIkari is correct. The "may/otherwise" on Bookkeeper is not there to provide an interesting decision, but rather to make it so the card doesn't whiff. Unlike Mountebank, the "main" attack of Bookkeeper is meant to be the one you may choose to do: putting a Copper on your deck. The Copper gain clause is there so that Bookkeeper still attacks when the target has no Copper in his discard pile (unless the Copper pile runs out). It's fewer words than making the target reveal a discard pile with no Copper. And if the decision turns out to be an interesting one more often than Mountebank's decision, great.

The card to compare it to is this Hinterlands outtake:

Quote
Margrave - Action-Attack, $5
+$2. Each other player looks through his discard pile and puts 2 Coppers from it on top of his deck (he reveals his discard pile if he can't).

According to Donald, it was usually weak and occasionally devastating. Bookkeeper is weaker when a target has 2 Coppers in his discard pile, but stronger otherwise. I am working off the assumption that part of the reason OldMargrave was weak is that it frequently failed to hit, but it's possible that Bookkeeper will also be too weak.
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