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[liopoil]

This isn't anything super special, but Doctor is excellent support for fool's gold. It trashes quickly while you continue to add FG to your deck. It doesn't have the problem of running out of economy because you only need to hit $2. It is particularly good on 5/2 or 2/5 of course, but is still viable with 3/4 or 4/3. On the 3 or 2 coin hand, buy a fool's gold, and on the 4 or 5 coin hand buy a doctor and overpay. Then, until the FG pile is empty, each turn buy a fool's gold regardless of how many coins you have. When you play doctor, name whatever is more likely to hit more cards. At first this will probably be copper, then later estate (track your deck). Trashing a copper and trashing an estate are virtually just as good, so don't feel biased towards naming estate at all. Then once the fool's gold pile is empty, buy provinces! If you miss 8, buy a helpful kingdom card, a gold, or a duchy. Probably don't get silver, even if that's all you can afford. If you only got 5 fool's gold because your opponent mirrored you may need to build a little more before greening. If your opponent didn't contest FG, you may want to start greening before the FG pile is empty, but keep buying FG when you don't hit 8.

In this game: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150102/log.505f53c7a2e6714a97eee786.1420234532214.txt which inspired me to post this I got 5 provinces and a duchy in 14 turns, which is slightly faster than other BM strategies like double jack. I don't think I had above average luck in this game either.

[WanderingWinder]

This is not a combo.

[liopoil]

This is not a combo.

I suppose not in the normal sense, but doctor provides the type of trashing that fool's gold likes: out of hand trashing. And it does so much better than lookout does. It may even be better than storeroom.

[TheOthin]

Does Fool's Gold even care that much if the trashing is out-of-hand or in-hand? Steward can trash two starting cards without impeding you from hitting $2, although it does get held up if you draw it with three Fool's Gold.

[liopoil]

Does Fool's Gold even care that much if the trashing is out-of-hand or in-hand? Steward can trash two starting cards without impeding you from hitting $2, although it does get held up if you draw it with three Fool's Gold.

Sure, steward or remake trashing is good too, but doctor is actually faster I think. Steward's other uses aren't going to be used much.

Hermit could be good, but it can't trash copper.

Actually, I just realized why doctor is better: the cycling. You see your doctor much more often. If you buy it turn 1 you shuffle right afterwards. Even if you don't, then whenever you play the doctor you will be cycling in a way that makes you see your doctor more often, which makes you trash faster. Steward and remake can't do that. This isn't fool's gold specific, it's just faster trashing. Fool's gold doesn't care about out-of-hand trashing, it likes fast trashing that still let's it hit $2. And doctor is the fastest there is. Only chapel can be faster than doctor in some ways, but when you trash with chapel you can't buy a FG.

[werothegreat]

Just realized Remake is awesome with FG when you have Shelters.

[liopoil]

I simulated some stuff using Dominiate, got some weird results. Doctor, Storeroom, and Hermit weren't programmed in yet, so I didn't use them. I also couldn't really test mint because it's only good on 5/2 (I did test that a bot that goes mint on 5/2, steward on 3/4 beats just steward). Steward crushed Chapel and Remake. Woodcutter beat steward. Bridge beat woodcutter. Baron narrowly beat bridge, but beat horse traders more handily. Finally Remodel is the current champion, which beats Baron. (I don't think there's any RPS). I think Doctor probably beats Remodel right now. I'll also test if mint/remodel beats remodel (get mint and not remodel on 5/2).

[TheOthin]

Hmm. Steward's strength is trashing, but it loses to decks that can get multiple Fool's Gold per turn, like Bridge. Then Remodel and Mint can both trash starting cards and accelerate Fool's Gold gaining. While Doctor has accelerated cycling, it sounds hard for it to beat that combination; it'll lose the Fool's Gold split every time while still facing down a thin deck.

I'm also unsure about the lack of RPS because the decks influence each other so much. It might be a moot point when comparing two FG strategies, but something like Woodcutter might only be better at winning the FG split against another FG deck and worse at taking on other decks? Of course it does set up very fast so who knows.

[liopoil]

Hmm. Steward's strength is trashing, but it loses to decks that can get multiple Fool's Gold per turn, like Bridge. Then Remodel and Mint can both trash starting cards and accelerate Fool's Gold gaining. While Doctor has accelerated cycling, it sounds hard for it to beat that combination; it'll lose the Fool's Gold split every time while still facing down a thin deck.

I'm also unsure about the lack of RPS because the decks influence each other so much. It might be a moot point when comparing two FG strategies, but something like Woodcutter might only be better at winning the FG split against another FG deck and worse at taking on other decks? Of course it does set up very fast so who knows.

It doesn't lose the split when doctor is P1 and the bridge player has the bridge miss the shuffle on T5 or T7, which isn't actually too unlikely. It never* loses the split more that 6-4, which may be the price it has to pay... it'll be close.

*except when the doctor player misses 2, which is exceedingly rare.

There might be a RPS thing between baron-doctor-bridge because baron occasionally misses estate. However baron v. bridge was a 51-49 margin so I'd probably just take bridge.

Also, Mint/Remodel beats Remodel.

[polot38]

I don't really see what doctor has to offer over other trashing that makes it good with fools gold. Sure, it technically is a combo, but so is:
FG/Steward
FG/Masquerade
FG/Forager
FG/Chapel
FG/Moneylender
FG/Cellar
FG/Storeroom
FG/Remake
FG/Remodel
FG/Lookout
FG/Forge
FG/Ambassador
FG/Loan
FG/Salvager
Etc.

[liopoil]

Doctor is better than most of those. If doctor were implemented on dominiate I'd simulate it for you.

[polot38]

Could you explain to me why doctor is better? I mean, doctor really isn't all that stellar as a trasher, which, from what i can see, is its main benefit. Could you explain what i'm missing?

[liopoil]

Could you explain to me why doctor is better? I mean, doctor really isn't all that stellar as a trasher, which, from what i can see, is its main benefit. Could you explain what i'm missing?

Doctor is a stellar trasher actually. Better than chapel when it comes to fool's gold.

Doctor is excellent support for fool's gold. It trashes quickly while you continue to add FG to your deck. It doesn't have the problem of running out of economy because you only need to hit $2.

In this game: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150102/log.505f53c7a2e6714a97eee786.1420234532214.txt which inspired me to post this I got 5 provinces and a duchy in 14 turns, which is slightly faster than other BM strategies like double jack. I don't think I had above average luck in this game either.

You see your doctor much more often. If you buy it turn 1 you shuffle right afterwards. Even if you don't, then whenever you play the doctor you will be cycling in a way that makes you see your doctor more often, which makes you trash faster. Steward and remake can't do that. This isn't fool's gold specific, it's just faster trashing. Fool's gold doesn't care about out-of-hand trashing, it likes fast trashing that still let's it hit $2. And doctor is the fastest there is. Only chapel can be faster than doctor in some ways, but when you trash with chapel you can't buy a FG.

[nate_w]

Could you explain to me why doctor is better? I mean, doctor really isn't all that stellar as a trasher, which, from what i can see, is its main benefit. Could you explain what i'm missing?

Doctor is a stellar trasher actually. Better than chapel when it comes to fool's gold.

Doctor is excellent support for fool's gold. It trashes quickly while you continue to add FG to your deck. It doesn't have the problem of running out of economy because you only need to hit $2.

In this game: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150102/log.505f53c7a2e6714a97eee786.1420234532214.txt which inspired me to post this I got 5 provinces and a duchy in 14 turns, which is slightly faster than other BM strategies like double jack. I don't think I had above average luck in this game either.

You see your doctor much more often. If you buy it turn 1 you shuffle right afterwards. Even if you don't, then whenever you play the doctor you will be cycling in a way that makes you see your doctor more often, which makes you trash faster. Steward and remake can't do that. This isn't fool's gold specific, it's just faster trashing. Fool's gold doesn't care about out-of-hand trashing, it likes fast trashing that still let's it hit $2. And doctor is the fastest there is. Only chapel can be faster than doctor in some ways, but when you trash with chapel you can't buy a FG.

So it sounds like you're saying doctor/fg is a combo in the same way that trasher X/fg is a combo, it's just that doctor outclasses trasher X in this instance, making doctor PARTICULARLY suited to pair with fg. Right?

I guess the concerns with this stance have been on two fronts:

1: there doesn't seem to be much to distinguish doctor from trasher X, so calling this a combo should be changed to any trasher/fg is a combo. You have made some arguments in the thread addressing this by asserting that doctor is better suited than other trashers.

2: people are still doubting that doctor is all that much better than other alternatives. I think I fall into this camp. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that doctor outclasses, say, ambassador in a pairing with fg. I mean, in a vacuum, maybe it's close, but with other things on the board you might want doctor loses trashing power quickly, whereas ambassador's effects can be magnified. With a village (any village)  on the board it's pretty easy to see the ambassadoring player bury the doctoring player. 

It seems to me that given a set of 8 random non-trasher cards, fg, and a choice of doctor or some other trasher, I'm not sure how often I would choose doctor. Probably not often enough to call it a combo instead of just saying trashers work well with fg.

Interesting point about the cycling though. Not sure if I agree with that benefitting you. Usually we think of cycling as good because it gets your important cards in play faster, but in this case we don't really care if fg is there quickly; we only care about our doctor plays, and doctor seems to make itself miss shuffles pretty well (especially likely at the end of turn 2 with overpay and turn 4).

[liopoil]

The whole thing is under the premise that you are going for a FG rush. There are plenty of strategies that just beat FG rushes period. Ambassador+village and an enginey thing is one of them. However when it comes to FG rushes, my claim is that doctor is just about as good support as you can get, especially if you hit 4 or 5 on turn 1. In a FG rush you do ignore 7-8 of the kingdom cards, and if some of them aren't ignorable, you shouldn't go for a FG rush.

It is better than chapel, steward, masquerade, or ambassador when it comes to a FG rush. That's because it is faster than all of those while still managing to buy a FG every turn. The reason it is faster is that 1) It begins trashing in the first two turns and 2) It cycles extremely quickly, and so you will see it more often. Those other 4 cards are also support for FG, but doctor is just better support than all 4. I look at these cards in a vacuum because if I don't look at in a vacuum then a FG rush is not the way to go.

When it comes to other support cards like storeroom or remodel, I am not sure if doctor is better or not, but my instinct says that if you get 4 or 5 on turn 1 then it is. See my sample game for how fast it can be.

In the end, FG rushes are a big money strategy, where you just buy fool's gold, no more than a couple actions, and green. Big money is quite often completely outclassed by any sort of engine. But when it comes to big money, I would consider doctor/FG to be one of the best.

[Flip5ide]

Could you explain to me why doctor is better? I mean, doctor really isn't all that stellar as a trasher, which, from what i can see, is its main benefit. Could you explain what i'm missing?

The interesting aspect is (I guess) the fact that, presumably, with your early $7 or whatever, you can use the overpay function. I guess.

[liopoil]

Not really. You get a doctor on the opening, so by the time you hit 7 you will be trashed down and don't want another doctor. If you wait on the doctor until you hit 7, you're in for a bad time as well.

[WanderingWinder]

The whole thing is under the premise that you are going for a FG rush. There are plenty of strategies that just beat FG rushes period. Ambassador+village and an enginey thing is one of them. However when it comes to FG rushes, my claim is that doctor is just about as good support as you can get, especially if you hit 4 or 5 on turn 1. In a FG rush you do ignore 7-8 of the kingdom cards, and if some of them aren't ignorable, you shouldn't go for a FG rush.

It is better than chapel, steward, masquerade, or ambassador when it comes to a FG rush. That's because it is faster than all of those while still managing to buy a FG every turn. The reason it is faster is that 1) It begins trashing in the first two turns and 2) It cycles extremely quickly, and so you will see it more often. Those other 4 cards are also support for FG, but doctor is just better support than all 4. I look at these cards in a vacuum because if I don't look at in a vacuum then a FG rush is not the way to go.

When it comes to other support cards like storeroom or remodel, I am not sure if doctor is better or not, but my instinct says that if you get 4 or 5 on turn 1 then it is. See my sample game for how fast it can be.

In the end, FG rushes are a big money strategy, where you just buy fool's gold, no more than a couple actions, and green. Big money is quite often completely outclassed by any sort of engine. But when it comes to big money, I would consider doctor/FG to be one of the best.

I don't really see how it's better than Steward. There isn't a hand where replacing Steward with Doctor lets you buy an FG which you otherwise wouldn't. Sure, it's nice if you open on $5, maaaaybe on $4. And it can potentially trash faster, but in practice, I wouldn't think this is going to make up for Steward's ability to +$ or draw, which is really not nothing.

My 'this is not a combo' was not intended to say you should never play this, but there's a substantial amount of cards that pair better with FG 1-on-1, and Doctor itself isn't doing anything THAT special IMO.