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[jsh357]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150101/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1420131558947.txt

I'll get things started this year with an epic Rats victory.  I was crushed by his Mountebank for the whole game and lost the Scrying Pool split.  In the end, the furry wonders managed to gather in hordes and assure my victory. 

[liopoil]

I don't think your opponent ever had much of a chance in that one. Can't ignore rats there, doesn't matter how many splits you win, your scrying pools just won't draw as much.

Also, the main point of this post... /tag.

EDIT: On a kingdom with no direct form of +action, +cards, or trashing:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150102/log.516d64d6e4b082c74d7bdb31.1420213265349.txt

[Elanchana]

This might be my best game of Attackmania yet. It started off on a bad note when my opponent got an early game Goons, but in the end I managed to thin down, win the Scrying Pool split, and do some MAJOR sabotage on their deck.

Also, this was pretty satisfying on my Expensive Taste board:

Elanchana Destler   plays King's Court
Elanchana Destler   plays Possession
Elanchana Destler   plays Possession
Elanchana Destler   plays Possession
Game Over

(My opponent resigned.)

[liopoil]

I finally bought the cards. One of the first things I did was this:


Log: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150103/log.50a43f07e4b0addfc4f4304a.1420319023082.txt

First try I got 3/4 (worst possible opening) and decided to restart. Second try I got the perfect opening, 5/2, (would have been happy with 4/3) and got a little more luck from there and did it in 6 turns. I misclicked near the end, gaining the last develop from catacombs instead of the last fortress, but luckily I had a scrying pool in hand to draw the develop so it was okay anyway.

Inn was useless, I bet it can be done in 5 with replacing inn and a bit more luck.

I also tried to empty the supply, but fell just short on buys. I was able to empty all the treasure piles by turn 10 though.

[Elanchana]

This week on BEST POSSESSION LUCK EVER...

[Elestan]

This week on BEST POSSESSION LUCK EVER...

Your opponent built an Alchemist deck with three Ambassadors in a Kingdom with Possession?

I guess sometimes, your opponent makes your shuffle luck for you.

[Awaclus]

What do you do when your opponent opens Dame Sylvia? You simply don't buy any cards costing $3-6.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150213/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1423851917883.txt

Code: [Select]

Beggar, Chapel, Pawn, Bishop, Catacombs, Knights, Mine, Adventurer, Forge, Peddler

[Throwaway_bicycling]

What do you do when your opponent opens Dame Sylvia? You simply don't buy any cards costing $3-6.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150213/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1423851917883.txt

Wow. Out of curiosity, would there have been any chance for Catacombs Big Money vs what you played here?

[Awaclus]

What do you do when your opponent opens Dame Sylvia? You simply don't buy any cards costing $3-6.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150213/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1423851917883.txt

Wow. Out of curiosity, would there have been any chance for Catacombs Big Money vs what you played here?

I guess you could always get lucky, but I don't think Catacombs big money expects to beat 5 Provinces and a Duchy in 14 turns (and I probably could have gotten another Duchy on my final turn if I had tried). There's also some flexibility here, you can add a Bishop instead of a Forge if you need to get more points but don't want to empty the Province pile.

[JW]

Wow. Out of curiosity, would there have been any chance for Catacombs Big Money vs what you played here?

Catacombs Big Money would have little chance. If your opponent did that then you can get all 10 Peddlers very quickly so you'd buy provinces faster on average than Awaclus did here. Relevant Mic Qsenoch post on related issue:

Two decks with five Highways might take 18 turns to end the game. One deck with 8-10 Highways might take 13 turns.

The general situation is: lots of engines require large numbers of specific cards to achieve maximum speed. If you don't contest important engine cards, your opponent can runaway with the game. When two players contest all the engine pieces, the decks that you end up with are often mediocre, but it was necessary to not get destroyed by the uncontested engine. There are lots of engine pieces that lead to this situation (Minion, Highway, Grand Market, King's Court, Villages, Bridge, Hunting Party, Lab, Stables, Scrying Pool, and many others)

The other big issue is that 4 Provinces is usually not enough points. There's usually a stack of Duchies for the engine player to catch up with, not to mention all the alt-VP cards.

But you are correct, sometimes people are just spinning wheels trying to build engines that don't work very well.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

What do you do when your opponent opens Dame Sylvia? You simply don't buy any cards costing $3-6.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150213/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1423851917883.txt

Wow. Out of curiosity, would there have been any chance for Catacombs Big Money vs what you played here?

I guess you could always get lucky, but I don't think Catacombs big money expects to beat 5 Provinces and a Duchy in 14 turns (and I probably could have gotten another Duchy on my final turn if I had tried). There's also some flexibility here, you can add a Bishop instead of a Forge if you need to get more points but don't want to empty the Province pile.

I only asked because I knew the factoid that Smithy-BM gets on average 4 Provinces in 14 turns, and Catacombs-BM has to do better than that.

Nobody seems to have implemented Catacombs-Big Money on Dominiate, so maybe I could do that, but some quick hand simulation suggests that Cat-BM is....actually pretty good, but not quite good enough. Cycling speed is impressive. You seem to get 27-30 VP in 13 turns but you're not going any faster at that point, and the engine seems quite smooth.

Meanwhile, JW's point below seems compelling; you would be going somewhat faster if uncontested for Peddlers, and then I don't see much chance.

[Awaclus]

Actually, "somewhat faster" might be an understatement. With just one extra Peddler instead of a Pawn, I could have had a double Province turn instead of the single Province, trash Province into Province turn that I had. Another extra Peddler instead of a Pawn, and maybe I could have had another double Province turn instead of a single Province turn. And I would have had those two Peddlers instead of two Pawns if I had been uncontested.

EDIT: Interestingly enough, Chapel/Pawn has got to be the right move on a 5/2 opening too.

EDIT: I played several Catacombs/BM games against Banker Bot and it looks like you can reliably get 27 points on turn 14.

[SCSN]

I knew the factoid that Smithy-BM gets on average 4 Provinces in 14 turns

Do yourself a big favor and forget this factoid along with all functionally equivalent ones. You want to either end the game with a point lead or get more than half the possible VP together with the certainty of being able to hold on to them. Getting X points in Y turns is only a very crude and misleading proxy for the latter objective, and occupying yourself with it is not only a waste of brainpower but it will actively point you in the wrong direction.

Like on this board it can't possibly apply because thanks to Bishop no amount of Green can come close to half the VP. The best strategy against a BM attempt is to Bishop a Peddler and buy a new one each turn until they're gone (5VP/turn), then switch to Golds and do the same (4VP/turn). Catacombs-BM can get X Provinces and Y Duchies in Z turns all it wants, but when turn Z+1 comes and it finally realizes the game is far from over, its deck is greener than a dense rainforrest with no way out.

A game I played yesterday neatly illustrates this concept: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150212/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1423793350871.txt

Chapel-Embassy-WV-Tunnel can make for a nice deck in a 4-card kingdom, but it's just hopeless in this particular 10-card one. Always consider the kingdom in its entirety instead of a 1-card subset and its meaningless performance in isolation. Otherwise you end up thinking that Ursain Bolt is the favorite in a marathon just because he can outrun everyone in the first 100 meters.

[pacovf]

Otherwise you end up thinking that Ursain Bolt is the favorite in a marathon just because he can outrun everyone in the first 100 meters.

Well, after the others get mauled and eaten, I doubt they will be finishing any marathons, so Ursain seems like the logical favourite.

[TrojH]

What do you do when your opponent opens Dame Sylvia? You simply don't buy any cards costing $3-6.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150213/log.510d7890e4b0ac7a7a0be611.1423851917883.txt

Hey! You bought a Duchy, you big liar! 

Seriously though, I think your "avoid $3-$6" strategy is the best on this board, even if your opponent doesn't buy any Knights.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

I knew the factoid that Smithy-BM gets on average 4 Provinces in 14 turns

Do yourself a big favor and forget this factoid along with all functionally equivalent ones.

Well, I think the reason why I called it a "factoid" in the first place was to underline the point that, even if true, it might not lead to a valid argument. In any case, I am not sure it is wrong to wonder how much better Catacombs is than Smithy in situations like this. Now, there is a point that I was focused on the question "is there a way to get 5 Provinces faster than 14 turns?" which ignored two points that have previously been brought up here by Awaclus:

1) It's no good here to fail to contest Peddlers, and

2) There is a Bishop in the kingdom, and you can augment/supplement the original idea via the alt-VP route.

You emphasize the point that (2) is really key here because, yes, even if it does turn out that Catacombs-BM can grab (I'm making this up) five Provinces in 13 turns, Bishop can more than even the score so long as the game doesn't end too soon. And since (by hypothesis) the BM player has none of the Peddlers and never buys a Bishop, it's not going to end well for him or her.

One question on the example game:

A game I played yesterday neatly illustrates this concept: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150212/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1423793350871.txt

Chapel-Embassy-WV-Tunnel can make for a nice deck in a 4-card kingdom, but it's just hopeless in this particular 10-card one.

I think I have seen you opponent post here in f.ds before once or twice, so maybe there could be some clarification there, but the thing that really surprised me most here was the systematic choice not to buy Worker's Villages (you won that split 9-1, and it did seem to help :-)). And then also, sure, why no Bishop?

[AdamH]

I knew the factoid that Smithy-BM gets on average 4 Provinces in 14 turns

Do yourself a big favor and forget this factoid along with all functionally equivalent ones.

I mean, the point you make here is a good one, and you're correct. But I think there is some value in knowing things like this, you just have to be careful with how you apply that knowledge.

If I'm trying out some weird strategy that I don't know whether or not it's any good, there are cases when it helps to look at where I am on T14 and ask myself where I'd be against a big money player who had 4 Provinces already. If the answer is "totally screwed" then you've used this benchmark to good use. It's probably also useful to know how fast Smithy+BM can get to 8 Provinces if you're pursuing some other source of VP like Vineyards or VP tokens.

but you have to be careful not to assume that every game is a race to 4 Provinces, most games aren't.

[WanderingWinder]

I knew the factoid that Smithy-BM gets on average 4 Provinces in 14 turns

Do yourself a big favor and forget this factoid along with all functionally equivalent ones.

I mean, the point you make here is a good one, and you're correct. But I think there is some value in knowing things like this, you just have to be careful with how you apply that knowledge.

If I'm trying out some weird strategy that I don't know whether or not it's any good, there are cases when it helps to look at where I am on T14 and ask myself where I'd be against a big money player who had 4 Provinces already. If the answer is "totally screwed" then you've used this benchmark to good use. It's probably also useful to know how fast Smithy+BM can get to 8 Provinces if you're pursuing some other source of VP like Vineyards or VP tokens.

but you have to be careful not to assume that every game is a race to 4 Provinces, most games aren't.

I have to come down on the side of SCSN here. I mean, the only time the 4 in 14 is relevant is in Big Money mirrors, where it's all more or less just a race to that halfway point. And the problem is, if you're in such a game, that you can expect 4 in 14 is irrelevant - you have to play to the draws in the actual game.


If you're asking yourself, could I have beaten that?, then it honestly isn't going to matter that they can get 4 in 14 - you will have other sources of points, in every case - duchy at the least. But also, BM is going to play differently in that case, which will make them a little slower to 4 provinces, but give them better longevity. So 4 in 14 goes out the window.

[Awaclus]

Hey! You bought a Duchy, you big liar! 

Oh right, I did do that. Well, getting that Duchy over nothing was a non-trivial decision anyway.

[AdamH]

But also, BM is going to play differently in that case, which will make them a little slower to 4 provinces, but give them better longevity. So 4 in 14 goes out the window.

BM plays differently when the opponent isn't playing BM, yes (unless they're playing poorly), but how does that affect how fast they get to 4 Provinces? I thought you would do things like buy Gold over Duchy for longer, but still buy Province whenever you hit $8.

[WanderingWinder]

But also, BM is going to play differently in that case, which will make them a little slower to 4 provinces, but give them better longevity. So 4 in 14 goes out the window.

BM plays differently when the opponent isn't playing BM, yes (unless they're playing poorly), but how does that affect how fast they get to 4 Provinces? I thought you would do things like buy Gold over Duchy for longer, but still buy Province whenever you hit $8.

It really depends on a lot of things. There are certainly situations where gold>province is correct (actually this is true even in the lightning mirror - if you end up with $8 on turn 3, you should get a gold). To give another example, you are also going to be more likely to get a second draw card. But the bigger point is, so they have 4 provinces - so what? Your plan in the non-mirror isn't to just blitz half the provinces before them, really ever. (Ok, sometimes you do this, but that's more just that the engine is so so far ahead that this is safe).

[AdamH]

But the bigger point is, so they have 4 provinces - so what? Your plan in the non-mirror isn't to just blitz half the provinces before them, really ever. (Ok, sometimes you do this, but that's more just that the engine is so so far ahead that this is safe).

I'm aware of all of this, but a lot of times I find it to be a useful metric if you keep this in mind.

[Geronimoo]

My opponent opens 5/2 on a board with Fool's Gold and Butcher. I have no chance with my 4/3 open... until he buys Province turn 6

RedWing: turn 6
RedWing   plays 3 Copper, 2 Fool's Gold
RedWing   buys Province
RedWing   gains Province
Geronimoo   trashes Fool's Gold
Geronimoo   gains Gold
Geronimoo   trashes Fool's Gold
Geronimoo   gains Gold
Geronimoo   trashes Fool's Gold
Geronimoo   gains Gold
Geronimoo   trashes Fool's Gold
Geronimoo   gains Gold
RedWing   draws Estate, Butcher, Estate, Fool's Gold
RedWing   shuffles deck
RedWing   draws Fool's Gold

... I still lost this game after Duchy dancing

[Elanchana]

Elanchana Destler   plays Rebuild
Elanchana Destler   names Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   shuffles deck
Elanchana Destler   reveals Spice Merchant, Gold, Copper, Gold, Gold, Tunnel, Tunnel, Copper, Rebuild, Tunnel, Gold, Tunnel, Copper, Gold, Necropolis, Gold, Tunnel, Estate
Elanchana Destler   discards: Spice Merchant, Gold, Copper, Gold, Gold, Tunnel, Tunnel, Copper, Rebuild, Tunnel, Gold, Tunnel, Copper, Gold, Necropolis, Gold, Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   reveals reaction Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   reveals reaction Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   reveals reaction Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   reveals reaction Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   reveals reaction Tunnel
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   trashes Estate
Elanchana Destler   gains Duchy

So apparently Rebuild/Tunnel is a thing even with Colonies and Shelters.

My opponent didn't know that Tunnel's reaction included discarding it from your deck, so I had the upper hand to start with, but still. We piled on Golds. It was kind of awesome.

[pubby]

This is what happens when your last two hands were dead.

Code: [Select]

pubby plays 2 Gold, 1 Platinum, 1 Silver, 1 Copper
pubby uses 3 coin tokens
pubby buys Doctor
pubby overpays for Doctor with 14 coins
pubby looks at Curse
pubby trashes Curse
pubby shuffles deck
pubby looks at Curse
pubby trashes Curse
pubby looks at Estate
pubby trashes Estate
pubby looks at Curse
pubby trashes Curse
pubby looks at Copper
pubby trashes Copper
pubby looks at Hamlet
pubby discards Hamlet
pubby looks at Copper
pubby trashes Copper
pubby looks at Curse
pubby trashes Curse
pubby looks at Estate
pubby trashes Estate
pubby looks at Doctor
pubby trashes Doctor
pubby looks at Estate
pubby trashes Estate
pubby looks at Curse
pubby trashes Curse
pubby shuffles deck
pubby looks at Hamlet
pubby discards Hamlet
pubby shuffles deck
pubby looks at Hamlet
pubby discards Hamlet
pubby gains Doctor

[Elanchana]

Achievement unlocked: I have now bought all 8 Colonies full price in one turn.

I've been trying to find a way to do that on my Expensive Taste board for some time - especially when unexperienced players don't resign/rage quit I try to win by the widest margin possible. But I never got to $88 on one turn until today. I kinda feel sorry for my opponent who was probably sitting there thinking "PLEASE JUST END THE GAME ALREADY" while I failed a few times to get my coin total up, but... I hope they were impressed rather than frustrated.

[theright555J]

Nicely done. Note that it was game over on T2 when your opponent opened with a potion.

[TrojH]

Achievement unlocked: I have now bought all 8 Colonies in one turn.

My first thought was "oh, you did the King's Court/Bridge thing. Welcome to the club."

Huh. No Bridge or Highway on the board! Well done.

[Elanchana]

Achievement unlocked: I have now bought all 8 Colonies in one turn.

My first thought was "oh, you did the King's Court/Bridge thing. Welcome to the club."

Huh. No Bridge or Highway on the board! Well done.

Yeah that's why I felt like posting this here. KC/Bridge is awesome but it wasn't an option simply because Bridge is $4 and I was playing a theme board. I edited my post to make it a little more obvious. (And thanks, by the way!)

[Throwaway_bicycling]

Nicely done. Note that it was game over on T2 when your opponent opened with a potion.

Yeah...that was problematic. And then having an opponent spin the deck twice with Golem when there were no actions to reveal...ouch.

Now I understand the relative lack of draw here, and it seems weird to critique an approach that won by 240 points, but is Golem really a good idea here at all? If you buy Silver over potion, any time you buy Golem you could have bought Goons (or Gold, I guess) instead and quite possibly a Grand Market. And since the name of the game here is KCing cantrips and playing anything you happen to draw, holding a Potion has to hurt your chances to hit $7 at least some of the time early.

[amalloy]

Nicely done. Note that it was game over on T2 when your opponent opened with a potion.

Yeah...that was problematic. And then having an opponent spin the deck twice with Golem when there were no actions to reveal...ouch.

Now I understand the relative lack of draw here, and it seems weird to critique an approach that won by 240 points, but is Golem really a good idea here at all? If you buy Silver over potion, any time you buy Golem you could have bought Goons (or Gold, I guess) instead and quite possibly a Grand Market. And since the name of the game here is KCing cantrips and playing anything you happen to draw, holding a Potion has to hurt your chances to hit $7 at least some of the time early.

Yeah I agree, Golem is getting in the way more than helping: the engine here is fueled by Kinging Kings and Kinging GMs; any Golem that you play takes two actions out of your potential "play three times" pool and plays them only once instead. It's especially bad if you Golem into a King's Court, because then it only gets to play one tripled action instead of three.

[Elanchana]

My philosophy for getting Potions/Golems on that board is that first of all, there are only ten KCs in the supply and my opponent will definitely grab some for their own. Second of all, and more importantly, many times what happens is that someone's deck will hit $6 including Coppers a few times before ever hitting $7 or Copper-free $6. The logical thing is to buy Goons when that happens, but too many Goons and you just get terminal-heavy. Golem ensures that you can play those Goons more often from the get-go and not have to worry about wasting buys/coins as much. And third, if my opponent happens to go for Possession, loading up on Golems (and Goons) will make it more likely that they screw themselves over.

Iunno though. That board is extremely luck-based as it is.

[liopoil]

Golem is only good as consolation possession (when you hit 4P or 5P). But when you get potion, you should be aiming for 6P. And you shouldn't be getting potion for a long time. In this game, where your opponent didn't make a deck worth possessing, ignore potion entirely. Your opponent should have gotten a possession. 5 KC is plenty.

[WanderingWinder]

Golem is only good as consolation possession (when you hit 4P or 5P). But when you get potion, you should be aiming for 6P. And you shouldn't be getting potion for a long time. In this game, where your opponent didn't make a deck worth possessing, ignore potion entirely. Your opponent should have gotten a possession. 5 KC is plenty.

Isn't this a goons board? Do I really want possession?

[liopoil]

Golem is only good as consolation possession (when you hit 4P or 5P). But when you get potion, you should be aiming for 6P. And you shouldn't be getting potion for a long time. In this game, where your opponent didn't make a deck worth possessing, ignore potion entirely. Your opponent should have gotten a possession. 5 KC is plenty.

Isn't this a goons board? Do I really want possession?

No clue, but I know you don't want to get potion for golem.

[Davio]

Gave my opponent a Colony to activate my Menagerie: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150419/log.505d295cfca2594308272c56.1429431388749.txt

I was so far ahead at that point that I just wanted to end the game.

[theblankman]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150419/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1429468089732.txt

theblankman   buys Province
theblankman   gains Province
theblankman   buys Province
theblankman   gains Province
theblankman   buys Copper
theblankman   gains Copper
theblankman   buys Copper
theblankman   gains Copper
theblankman   buys Copper
theblankman   gains Copper
theblankman   buys Copper
theblankman   gains Copper
theblankman   buys Copper
theblankman   gains Copper
theblankman   buys Copper
theblankman   gains Copper

Yes, I did need those coppers.  To level up a single Garden.  For a one-point win.

[Flip5ide]

Winning with all 10 9 Ruins

Code: [Select]

Secret Chamber, Market Square, Moneylender, Apprentice, Band of Misfits, Counterfeit, Cultist, Junk Dealer, Venture, Grand Market

[sudgy]

Is there any thread for games you felt were pretty cool, but not quite a "best moment"?  I just built a double-tactician engine with the only +2 actions being tactician and necropolis, and the only virtual coin mystic (the main source) and militia.  Although, the best part was embargoing the Golds.

[brokoli]

Just finished a game with a very… unexpected end.
My play was AWFUL. Don't look at it, but here is the log : http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150420/log.505c7bfd51c32492827890f9.1429564909246.txt

But I love the end, where I make a three pile-ending by processing processions :

brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Steward
brokoli   draws Procession, Market
brokoli   plays Steward
brokoli   draws Gold, Market
brokoli   trashes Steward
brokoli   gains Navigator
brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Market
brokoli   shuffles deck
brokoli   draws Procession
brokoli   plays Market
brokoli   draws Province
brokoli   trashes Market
brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Market
brokoli   draws Duchy
brokoli   plays Market
brokoli   draws Navigator
brokoli   trashes Market
brokoli   plays Procession
brokoli   plays Navigator
brokoli   looks at Steward, Gold, Market, Upgrade, Silver
brokoli   places Steward on top of deck
brokoli   places Gold on top of deck
brokoli   places Market on top of deck
brokoli   places Upgrade on top of deck
brokoli   places Silver on top of deck
brokoli   plays Navigator
brokoli   looks at Silver, Upgrade, Market, Gold, Steward
brokoli   places Silver on top of deck
brokoli   places Upgrade on top of deck
brokoli   places Market on top of deck
brokoli   places Gold on top of deck
brokoli   places Steward on top of deck
brokoli   trashes Navigator
brokoli   gains Upgrade
brokoli   trashes Procession
brokoli   gains Upgrade
brokoli   trashes Procession
brokoli   gains Upgrade
brokoli   trashes Procession
brokoli   gains Upgrade

brokoli   plays 2 Gold, 1 Copper
brokoli   buys Province
brokoli   gains Province
brokoli   buys Duchy
brokoli   gains Duchy
brokoli   buys Estate
brokoli   gains Estate

I won by only 1 point. 

… I love procession.

[liopoil]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150421/log.50a43f07e4b0addfc4f4304a.1429660661657.txt

After 11 turns, my opponent has won the Wharf split 7-3, has trashed two more cards than I have, and all I have to show for it are some silly stewards, universities, a golem, and a festival, meanwhile he has a forge and two gold. On turn 12 he buys a province, which was almost certainly premature. Instead, he should keep building, because 7 wharves can do a whole lot of stuff and there are plenty of great cards in the kingdom. My deck gains stewards because I have 3 universities lying around and not enough draw from just 3 wharves, and I pick up another festival, golem, and a harvest too. On turn 13 he buys a province and forges another, while my deck comes together to buy 2 provinces (Maybe these should have been fairgrounds). On his turn 14 he falls just short of being able to empty the last 3 provinces (he said in the chat that he should have kept one more copper on turn 13, then I assume he would have been able to get all 3. Finally on my turn 14 I have enough stuff in my deck, including 8 stewards to get the money needed to get two fairgrounds and an estate with the last province to win.

I don't think I've ever seen a game turn around this quickly... maybe I should have seen it coming because I had 3 unis to his 0, but well I didn't.

[Elanchana]

I feel like I just gained some Dominion street cred for independently applying The Stef Rule for the first time.

Made even more satisfying by the fact that I recovered from some serious bad judgement in turn 20 that almost lost me the game, but thankfully I had Province-junked my opponent so much that they couldn't turn that to their advantage. Whew.

[sudgy]

What's the Stef rule again?

[Elanchana]

What's the Stef rule again?

If you're going for some kind of alt-VP and your opponent is going for a Province strategy, you don't contest them at all, forcing them to struggle to empty the entire pile themselves while you take a lead in a more reliable way.

I call it the Stef Rule because of a thread Stef made once called "Don't buy that Province". Since it's a phrase I coined it probably won't catch on but whatever. You could also call it Province-junking.

[Awaclus]

If you're going for some kind of alt-VP and your opponent is going for a Province strategy, you don't contest them at all, forcing them to struggle to empty the entire pile themselves while you take a lead in a more reliable way.

Well, that's true pretty often. It's certainly true here. But it's not always true — just like the Province player sometimes wants to buy alt-VP for the purpose of denying them from you, there are also times when you want to buy Provinces for the same reason. And just like it's with a Province player denying alt-VP, you have to be sure that the points they lose will hurt them more than the speed they gain helps them, though (ideally, you should also benefit from the fact that now the game is ending sooner).

[Elanchana]

If you're going for some kind of alt-VP and your opponent is going for a Province strategy, you don't contest them at all, forcing them to struggle to empty the entire pile themselves while you take a lead in a more reliable way.

Well, that's true pretty often. It's certainly true here. But it's not always true — just like the Province player sometimes wants to buy alt-VP for the purpose of denying them from you, there are also times when you want to buy Provinces for the same reason. And just like it's with a Province player denying alt-VP, you have to be sure that the points they lose will hurt them more than the speed they gain helps them, though (ideally, you should also benefit from the fact that now the game is ending sooner).

Obviously it doesn't apply everywhere - "depends on the board" and all that. It's mostly for situations where the slow but reliable buildup alt-VP can provide is better than the fast increase in points through high cost green cards that eventually get intrusive. The principle is to make the Province player's job as hard as possible.

[Flip5ide]

When you don't get your Cities leveled up until you are down 5 Provinces to 0.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150423/log.52c52dc9e4b0869c01b4b68b.1429832031459.txt

[Elanchana]

A pretty cool stunt that I pulled recently: Converting my low-pay engine into a golden deck in less than 2 turns.

Details:

3   Rabble
1   Remake
4   Worker's Village
2   Silver
1   Gold
11   cards in deck
0   victory points

Elanchana Destler   plays Remake
Elanchana Destler   trashes Silver
Elanchana Destler   gains Bishop
Elanchana Destler   trashes Rabble
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   plays Worker's Village
Elanchana Destler   shuffles deck
Elanchana Destler   draws Gold
Elanchana Destler   plays Rabble
Elanchana Destler   draws Bishop
(opponent)   reveals Silver, Copper, Silver
(opponent)   discards: Silver, Copper, Silver
Elanchana Destler   plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Elanchana Destler   buys Province
Elanchana Destler   gains Province

(opponent)   plays Bishop
(opponent)   trashes Remake
(opponent)   receives 2 victory point chips
Elanchana Destler   trashes Remake

1   Bishop
2   Rabble
4   Worker's Village
1   Silver
2   Gold
1   Province
11   cards in deck
6   victory points

[Awaclus]

A pretty cool stunt that I pulled recently: Converting my low-pay engine into a golden deck in less than 2 turns.

Details:

3   Rabble
1   Remake
4   Worker's Village
2   Silver
1   Gold
11   cards in deck
0   victory points

Elanchana Destler   plays Remake
Elanchana Destler   trashes Silver
Elanchana Destler   gains Bishop
Elanchana Destler   trashes Rabble
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   plays Worker's Village
Elanchana Destler   shuffles deck
Elanchana Destler   draws Gold
Elanchana Destler   plays Rabble
Elanchana Destler   draws Bishop
(opponent)   reveals Silver, Copper, Silver
(opponent)   discards: Silver, Copper, Silver
Elanchana Destler   plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Elanchana Destler   buys Province
Elanchana Destler   gains Province

(opponent)   plays Bishop
(opponent)   trashes Remake
(opponent)   receives 2 victory point chips
Elanchana Destler   trashes Remake

1   Bishop
2   Rabble
4   Worker's Village
1   Silver
2   Gold
1   Province
11   cards in deck
6   victory points

That's not a golden deck. What if you draw Rabble, Rabble, Province, Silver, Gold?

[Elanchana]

A pretty cool stunt that I pulled recently: Converting my low-pay engine into a golden deck in less than 2 turns.

Details:

3   Rabble
1   Remake
4   Worker's Village
2   Silver
1   Gold
11   cards in deck
0   victory points

Elanchana Destler   plays Remake
Elanchana Destler   trashes Silver
Elanchana Destler   gains Bishop
Elanchana Destler   trashes Rabble
Elanchana Destler   gains Gold
Elanchana Destler   plays Worker's Village
Elanchana Destler   shuffles deck
Elanchana Destler   draws Gold
Elanchana Destler   plays Rabble
Elanchana Destler   draws Bishop
(opponent)   reveals Silver, Copper, Silver
(opponent)   discards: Silver, Copper, Silver
Elanchana Destler   plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Elanchana Destler   buys Province
Elanchana Destler   gains Province

(opponent)   plays Bishop
(opponent)   trashes Remake
(opponent)   receives 2 victory point chips
Elanchana Destler   trashes Remake

1   Bishop
2   Rabble
4   Worker's Village
1   Silver
2   Gold
1   Province
11   cards in deck
6   victory points

That's not a golden deck. What if you draw Rabble, Rabble, Province, Silver, Gold?

Play Rabble, hope I draw the other Gold, buy a Province if I do, buy a Village if I don't, and know that I have a golden turn coming up next.

[Awaclus]

Play Rabble, hope I draw the other Gold, buy a Province if I do, buy a Village if I don't, and know that I have a golden turn coming up next.

The point is that you are not guaranteed to play the exact same turn every turn, which means that it's not a golden deck, but rather, just a regular (although a remarkably reliable) Bishop engine.

Which raises the question, since you already have a reliable engine, why would you want to just remove a card from the Province pile for +5 VP every turn for your payload, when you could, say, build a bit more and then remove three cards from the Gold pile for +12 VP every turn instead?

[Elanchana]

Play Rabble, hope I draw the other Gold, buy a Province if I do, buy a Village if I don't, and know that I have a golden turn coming up next.

The point is that you are not guaranteed to play the exact same turn every turn, which means that it's not a golden deck, but rather, just a regular (although a remarkably reliable) Bishop engine.

Which raises the question, since you already have a reliable engine, why would you want to just remove a card from the Province pile for +5 VP every turn for your payload, when you could, say, build a bit more and then remove three cards from the Gold pile for +12 VP every turn instead?

I had 4 villages out of 11 cards, which meant the chance of drawing a hand without a village was 4.5%. I was okay with taking my chances.

The reason I didn't build more was because making the quasi-golden deck was a snap decision that I could carry out immediately as soon as I made it. Maybe with more planning I could have built a more powerful Bishop engine, but at that point I didn't want to wait to have the resources and my opponent was already threatening to build up a fairly substantial reservoir of their own points.

[Elanchana]

I'm not posting the log for this game because my play was pretty impulsive and cringeworthy, but I redeemed myself at the end with this little miracle of trash-for-benefit:

Score: Ela 27, opponent 37
1 Province left, no alt-VP

(at this point I have 6 coin tokens from previous turns and $3 from actions)
Elanchana Destler   plays Butcher
Elanchana Destler   receives 2 coin tokens
Elanchana Destler   trashes Gold
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   gains Province
Elanchana Destler   plays Butcher
Elanchana Destler   receives 2 coin tokens
Elanchana Destler   trashes Copper
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   gains Duchy
Elanchana Destler   plays 1 Copper
Elanchana Destler   uses 1 coin token
Elanchana Destler   buys Duchy
Elanchana Destler   gains Duchy

You do the math.

[sc0UT]

I asked myself how did ela manage to buy a duchy with only 1 copper and 1 coin token?
Fishing Village, Ironmonger and Bazaar did the math

[Elanchana]

I asked myself how did ela manage to buy a duchy with only 1 copper and 1 coin token?
Fishing Village, Ironmonger and Bazaar did the math

....derp. Yeah, that's how I got the money.

[GendoIkari]

I just drew a hand of King's Court, Moneylender, Copper, Copper, Copper. (Platinum game).

[Joseph2302]

Game Log Just trashed 2 provinces to a Mercenary to win a game.

[TrojH]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150710/log.514403bee4b0f496b6dd6c53.1436569558890.txt

---------- Trojan Horse: turn 12 ----------
Trojan Horse - plays 2 Copper, 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Trojan Horse - buys Province
Trojan Horse - gains Province
Trojan Horse - draws Salvager, Tournament, Estate, Copper, Province

...
 
---------- Trojan Horse: turn 13 ----------
Trojan Horse - plays Tournament
Trojan Horse - draws Copper
Trojan Horse - plays Salvager
Trojan Horse - trashes Province
Trojan Horse - plays 2 Copper
Trojan Horse - buys Province
Trojan Horse - gains Province
Trojan Horse - buys Estate
Trojan Horse - gains Estate
Trojan Horse - draws Copper, Expand, Province, Copper, Province

First time I have ever played a Tournament with a Province in hand, and NOT revealed the Province. Far more important to Salvage the Province, and force the endgame while I had a lead.

[Elanchana]

This Is How We Do

Yes, luck was involved, but so was careful counting and re-planning. Sorry I don't sound enthusiastic but it was 1 in the morning.

[Deadlock39]

In one of my recent league games I was surprised to find I needed to trash 2 Provinces to Mercenary for a forced win.

Code: [Select]

---------- Deadlock39: turn 13 ----------
...
Deadlock39 - draws Province, Bazaar, Province, Gold, Mercenary
 
...
 
---------- Deadlock39: turn 14 ----------
Deadlock39 - plays Bazaar
Deadlock39 - draws Silver
Deadlock39 - plays Mercenary
Deadlock39 - trashes Province, Province
Deadlock39 - draws Silver, Province
gkrieg - discards Estate
gkrieg - discards Copper
Deadlock39 - plays 2 Silver, 1 Gold
Deadlock39 - buys Province
Deadlock39 - gains Province

[jsh357]

Tremble in terror at the might of the 9 Royal Seal deck:

Code: [Select]

Supply cards: Moat, Woodcutter, Council Room, Library, Margrave, Merchant Guild, Minion, Rogue, Royal Seal, Border Village, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse

jsh357 - cards: 9 Minion, 5 Border Village, 3 Woodcutter, 2 Moat, 7 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Royal Seal, 4 Estate, 1 Province
jsh357 - total victory points: 10
jsh357 - turns: 15
 
henningrm - cards: 5 Border Village, 1 Minion, 1 Woodcutter, 1 Margrave, 9 Royal Seal, 7 Copper, 2 Silver, 3 Estate, 1 Province
henningrm - total victory points: 9
henningrm - turns: 15
 

1st place: jsh357
2nd place: henningrm

[xyz123]

I had a game yesterday with what initially appeared to be an unlucky turn 3/4 draw that lead to a neat trick on turn 5. I opened Potion/Sage. On turn 3 I had 4 copper and a potion, so bought a University. On turn 4, I only had 2 to spend, Sage had missed the reshuffle so I bought a Squire. On turn 5 though I managed to draw Sage, Potion and University together which lead to this.

xyz123 plays University
xyz123 gains Wharf
xyz123 plays Sage
xyz123 shuffles deck
xyz123 reveals Squire, Overgrown Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Necropolis, Copper, Hovel, Copper, Wharf
xyz123 places Wharf in hand
xyz123 discards: Squire, Overgrown Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Necropolis, Copper, Hovel, Copper
xyz123 plays Wharf

[aku_chi]

The game where I gained 152 VP on turn 16:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151224/log.0.1450993172086.txt

It was a powerhouse board with Scrying Pool, Bridge, King's Court, Throne Room, and Black Market (Goons, Governor, and Remake were the highlights in the Black Market deck)!  My early turns weren't too exciting; I mostly bought Scrying Pools and looked at cards in the Black Market deck (but rarely bought any).  Even as late as turn 14, my deck didn't look too impressive.

But the last couple turns improved my deck quality exponentially (and I don't use that word carelessly).  On turn 15, I throned a Governor to gain two Golds, drew them, Remade them into King's Courts, drew those, and went to town (well, the Black Market, really).  And on my last turn I got enough Bridges to buy out all of the Colonies and Provinces (and a couple Duchies).

Code: [Select]

aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Colony
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Colony
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Province
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Province
aku chi - buys Duchy
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Duchy
aku chi - buys Duchy
aku chi - receives 1 victory point chips
aku chi - gains Duchy
Then I apologized to my mother, WhiteDragon.  We haven't played Dominion since...