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Author Topic: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)  (Read 6418 times)

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werothegreat

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A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« on: December 15, 2014, 04:27:09 pm »
+1

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or in "Other Board Games", but I figured this would be better, since it's starting off as a knockoff of Dominion.  I've been on a bit of a mythology kick lately, and I thought it might be cool to have a deckbuilder where you compete for the favor of different gods - Zeus, Ares, Dionysus, etc.  Please bear in mind that this is mainly brainstorming - I may or may not be procrastinating actual work, and I don't really have the time to mock up cards to test them.  I mainly wanted to get youse guys's thoughts on it, and whether or not it was something to be developed further.

OBJECTIVE: Gain the favor of the most gods.

How is this different from Dominion?

1) Choose your starting cards. Everyone must start with three Silvers (Treasures worth $1) and three Militias (Armies worth 1 Might, or 1X).  You can mix-'n-match your other four cards as you see fit, depending on which Gods are available, or which ones you want to go for.

2) There are two kinds of "Action."  Labors come in two flavors: Mortal and Monster.  When you randomize a kingdom, you always put out 5 of each.

3) There are four resources.  I realize this seems like a lot, but bear with me (and doesn't 7 Wonders have more, anyways?).  Your starting cards produce Drachmas (read: coins) and Might.  You need Drachmas to buy Mortals, and Might to conquer Monsters.  Mortals in turn give you Faith, and Monsters give you Blood.  Some more expensive Mortals/Monsters may require Faith/Blood in order to give them a use when you don't have much of these two secondary resources, but their main use is to acquire Gods.

3a) Two starting resources cost each other.  You need Drachmas to get Armies (pay them) and Might to acquire Wealth (conquest).  So even if you start with 7 Militia and 3 Silver, you can still use your Silvers to buy Phalanxes, or your Militia to buy Gold or Diamonds.

4) Instead of Victory cards, there are Gods.  Gods are expensive.  They can cost one or two different resources, usually Faith and/or Blood, but a couple cost Drachmas and/or Might instead/as well.  When you gain their favor, they sit in front of you like a permanent Duration (or Prince), giving you a small bonus turn to turn (nothing too drastic, but this will be balanced through testing). 

5) You can steal points from each other.  Gods are notoriously capricious - you can buy a God from the pool left, or buy one from another player. However, a few gods are Steadfast, and will remain with the first player who gained their favor.  Only Fickle Gods can change allegiance.  This is both due to balance reasons (some gods *have* to be Steadfast, and "attacking" Gods need to be Fickle), and for variety - Fickle Gods are usually stronger than Steadfast Gods at the same cost.

6) There are two different "Buys".  Gods are expensive enough as it is, and with multiple resources, forcing you to choose might be strategically interesting, but it doesn't sound like much fun.  Therefore, you have a Purchase phase where you acquire things with money, and a Conquest phase where you acquire things with Armies.  Then you can claim the favor of as many Gods as you can afford.

7) Far more engine friendly.  While there are a couple Gods that can be acquired through Drachmas/Might, most require secondary resources, which means you need to get your Action game down.  "Big money" is not going to fly here.  To that end, there are two Labors in every game - the Agora, a cheap "village", and Vermin, a cheap "trasher".

8.) Theme!  Obviously, this is mythology-themed rather than medieval-themed.

9) Dangling threads:  Play as many Wealth or Army cards you like per turn, but you are still restricted to one Labor card per turn.  Trashing is called "Sacrifice", Actions are called "Labors", Treasures = "Wealth", Coin = "Drachma".  The game ends when all Gods have been bought.


Basic cards:
Armies:
Militia
$0 - Army
+1X (Might)

Phalanx
$3 - Army
+2X

Legion
$6 - Army
+3X

Wealth:
Silver
0X - Wealth
+$1 (Wealth)

Gold
3X - Wealth
+$2

Diamonds
6X - Wealth
+$3

Labors:
Agora
$1 - Labor-Mortal
+2 Labors

Vermin
1X - Labor-Monster
Sacrifice up to 2 cards from your hand.


"Kingdom" Card ideas:
See below.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 09:03:50 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 01:30:56 am »
0

Anyone have any comments or thoughts?
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 03:11:37 am »
0

Anyone have any comments or thoughts?

Mythology theme is one of my favourites; it's why I was drawn to Kemet (Egyptian), Cyclades (Greek) and The Ancient World (not based on any real mythology, but has that kind of feel).

This is currently tl;dr for me though.  It would help if you used more familiar terms instead of thematic ones.  Like, "Labour" is just "Action", right?  Instead of providing a big list of cards, it would be better to just explain how it differs from Dominion.  Right now, I'm getting the sense that the biggest difference other than theme is that there are multiple resources that chain into one another (something like, Wealth buys Might, Might sheds Blood, and I suppose different things produce Favour).
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 03:28:05 am »
0

So multiple resources, winning is based on Gods rather than Proivnces, and the Gods actually do things and there are no other "VP" sources?

Wait, taking a closer look you mention "Points". Are those basically the VP equivalent, where rather than winning on sheer number of Gods, you win on getting the most total point value out of the Gods you have?
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 03:32:48 am »
0

I would definitely play this if I had the cards, but it's hard to see how it would play out just from reading the card description.  I like the sound of it though.

How are the Gods balanced?  Is the intention that weaker Gods are worth more points, or is some overall idea of their value supposed to be captured by their varying costs?
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 04:14:52 am »
+1

Anyone have any comments or thoughts?
Some quick comments:
1) This sounds rather complex, and at first glance probably too complex. Multiple resources types cause problems at two levels: They are hard to balance, and they make the game hard to play. It might be possible to get around the first issue with enough effort, but the latter one needs to be taken seriously. Even though I've played some 500+ different games of varying complexity and I actually like fairly complex games, I would be hesitant to even try this one out after having read the description; in addition to having not just 2 or 3 but even 4 different resource types, it also has in the order of 30 different cards displayed on the table, only 1/3 of which is retained from game to game.

Game design is tricky business in the sense that people have natural urge to add more and more stuff, thinking it improves the game. It very, very, rarely does, but instead the real effort should go into streamlining. Before adding any new element you should think hard whether it is actually necessary and improving the game, and after finally making a decision of adding something (say, a 3rd resource type) you should re-visit all the previous elements and think which ones perhaps could be removed after the new thing was added.

2) The Gods are both the means to winning (via points) and powerful cards at the same time. This can easily lead to issues with run-away leaders; if someone gets a nice God relatively early on, then they both have a lead in points but also a stronger deck. This is not necessarily a critical problem, but as a starting point it sounds dangerous. We've seen this problem in many deck builders (say, the DC Comics deck builder), and always it is motivated from the perspective of the theme, not mechanics. Sure Gods are powerful, but it does not convert into good game-play; maybe they should require constant sacrifices to avoid their wrath or something.

3) The game end condition sounds broken. Wouldn't the winner often be determined way before all Gods have given out their favors?

4) Do you have a novelty factor? I don't see anything that would not already exist in some deck builders. It's okay to go without new mechanics and ride with the theme, but mythology and gods is perhaps not that novel as a theme either...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 04:26:18 am by Ratsia »
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 09:54:48 am »
0

This sounds (tldr) an awful lot like a variant of Thunderstone.
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 11:59:23 am »
+1

The idea was to balance how many points a God gave with its ability.

re:EHalcyon: The key differences are:
1) There are two types of Action cards (Mortals and Monsters) that require different resources to buy (Wealth and Might, respectively), and typically produce different resources (Favor and Blood, respectively).

2) You start with Cards that give +Actions.  I wanted engine play to be more viable than any sort of BM analog, especially since there have to be cards that give Favor in every game, and I want those to be Action cards.

3) Gods do something.  I toyed with the idea of whoever gets the *most* Gods winning, but that doesn't really leave open the sort of alt-VP strategies Dominion has.  That's why they also give points.  I could be open to Gods only giving points, if after testing the abilities are too silly.

re: qmech:  The cards are not balanced...  However, the intention was that how many points a God gives is supposed to be balanced against its cost and ability, yes.

re: Ratsia:

1) I could be amenable to losing the Army/Might mechanic, and have just Wealth and Favor (maybe Blood).  I do want Gods to be gained by a resource other than money, though...  As to your concern of resources not necessarily being present every game, that's why I added Favor generating cards in the basic cards.  As it stands, the kingdom is supposed to be half Mortals, half Monsters, and all Monsters produce Blood.

2) I could be open to the constant sacrifice idea.  Maybe have Gods remain in front of you, and you have to pay some price in order to activate them each turn, but their effect isn't game-breakingly powerful?

3) Well, the game end condition could be changed after testing.  Maybe when half the Gods are gone?  We'll see.

4) Uhhh...  yeah, I'll have to get back to you on that.
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2014, 08:27:38 am »
+1

2) I could be open to the constant sacrifice idea.  Maybe have Gods remain in front of you, and you have to pay some price in order to activate them each turn, but their effect isn't game-breakingly powerful?
...
4) Uhhh...  yeah, I'll have to get back to you on that.
Make gods permanent effects that stay out in front of players and can be bought away by other players (because gods are fickle).
To keep the game from circling the drain, put a token onto a god whenever it is bought that makes it more expensive, that way it will eventually become impossible or impractical to steal the favor of a god.
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2014, 12:25:34 pm »
0

This sounds (tldr) an awful lot like a variant of Thunderstone.

And even more like a variation of this:
http://mayfairgames.com/game.php?id=409&stock=MFG4128&name=Asgard%27s+Chosen
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 08:51:33 pm »
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I've updated the first post.  Changed some things after some thought, and the intro should be easier to read now.
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2015, 10:33:06 pm »
0

Mock-ups of the basic cards:

« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:56:44 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2015, 10:43:42 pm »
0

Here are the "kingdom" cards I've mocked up:

« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:20:10 am by werothegreat »
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2015, 01:03:55 pm »
0

And God cards:



« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:57:58 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2015, 05:10:10 pm »
+2

Please don't call it Mythos, such a corny name.

"Oh a game called Mythos, whats it about, probably Gods and Monthsers and stuff, yaaawwwn, heard it before"

Call it something exciting, THEN when they look at it they will already be excited and the Gods and Monsters theme will be icing on the top
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2015, 05:13:46 pm »
0

Please don't call it Mythos, such a corny name.

"Oh a game called Mythos, whats it about, probably Gods and Monthsers and stuff, yaaawwwn, heard it before"

Call it something exciting, THEN when they look at it they will already be excited and the Gods and Monsters theme will be icing on the top

How about "KICK FUCK UP NUCLEAR BOMBS ON MOUNT OLYMPUS *confetti*"?  Ooo!  Or how about "Divinion"?
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2015, 09:03:05 pm »
0

Okay, I've done a bit of playtesting, and made a few changes.
-Decreased costs of Gods - game was taking too long otherwise
-Rebalanced abilities on Labors
-Rebalanced amount of Blood and Faith given by Mortals and Monsters
-Added two basic cards - Agora and Vermin - to ensure an engine is always viable on a board, since an engine is necessary to get the Gods

Check the updated post and the updated pictures!
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 10:22:29 am »
0

Was able to do quite a bit more playtesting yesterday - the group I played with seemed to like it!  The multiple resource mechanic was intriguing.  However, there was a still a little balancing to be done - reduced the number of Gods out, and if there are 4 players, increase the number of Mortals and Monsters out - they just spread too thin with that many players.

Anyone on here interested at all in trying it out?
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2015, 05:20:18 am »
+1

Was able to do quite a bit more playtesting yesterday - the group I played with seemed to like it!  The multiple resource mechanic was intriguing.  However, there was a still a little balancing to be done - reduced the number of Gods out, and if there are 4 players, increase the number of Mortals and Monsters out - they just spread too thin with that many players.

Anyone on here interested at all in trying it out?

Very interested; I just don't know who else I could shanghai into this. It took a very long time to convince my crowd that Enterprise is just as good as a real expansion, and I doubt they'll take a chance on a pre-alpha Dominion spin-off.  :(

A few things that would make my job easier, and might entice other people here:
 
Pretty up the cards some more, and make them colorblind-friendly. This is a necessity for some people, who won't want to squint every card they played hunting for Xs and Bs and hashtags. It wouldn't be that hard to mock up symbols -- gold circle, red teardrop, blue star, etc., and put the yields in the same place on every card. After a big turn, players will need to glance over every card they played to tally up the number of coins they have, and then repeat the process three more times for the other resources. If your game revolves around managing multiple resources, this should be as painless as possible. Here's a template that's in my head right now, courtesy of my shitty MSPaint.

Use standard Dominion verbs for everything. It'll play exactly the same in every way, and it'll be so much more inviting to people when I ask them "Hey, do you want to play this clipart-on-cardstock game made by a perfect stranger from the internet?" I realize you want this to become more than a reskinned Dominion clone, but that will happen on its own time. Donald said that Kingdom Builder and Temporum were both conceived as 'Dominion with a board', but became something different during development.
If, a year from now, this game is still fantasy Dominion, changing the words used for the mechanics won't fool anyone. On the other hand, if you end up with a game that's interesting and engaging in its own right, you'll want everything written in the most widely used jargon to keep it as accessible as possible.

(Also, I'm not keen on the specific names used for the basic Dominion actions. You're making a game where everything revolves around currying favor with Greek gods. One of the things a card might tell you to do is 'sacrifice' something. Do you see how it might be really confusing to a first-time player that sacrificing has absolutely nothing to do with gaining the favor of said gods?)

Some more general opinions: if you're worried about this game looking samey in comparison to Dominion, it might be worthwhile to look through all the mechanics that you've transported over, and deciding whether each one is helpful for the game you want to make. For instance, why are there a limited number of buys? That mechanic is clearly necessary in Dominion, for a number of reasons that all boil down to 'there's only one resource your deck produces'. But if this game is founded on the exact opposite premise, and everything will be balanced to reward the player whose deck produces some of every resource, then what's the point? If I make $4 6X 5B 5# or whatever in my turn, I'm not going to be emptying any piles.

The stuff you've posted so far has definitely caught my attention, and even if I don't post in this thread often, I would still be interested to read your updates and see how things go as the game progresses.
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2015, 09:37:17 am »
0

Thanks very much for the response!  I'll definitely take a look into redesigning the card mock-up, as well as your other recommendations.

However, I want to keep the limited buys mechanic, for a couple reasons:
1) It allows for more design space - more, differentiated cards
2) There are some cards that cost 0, as well as cost reducers - I really don't want you to be able to just pick up an entire pile
3) There are two cards that give Faith/Blood for each card you "buy" - without limits on buys, you could easily just buy all the Silvers/Militia and take all the Gods that turn.
4) Each resource has its own buy phase - first you buy things with money, then you conquer things with armies, then curry favor with Faith and Blood.  The only one without limited "buys" is the last one, because a) a card that lets you buy more than one God is not going to be useful very often, b) reducing Faith and Blood costs would then be the same thing as +1 of either, and c) I don't want to punish players for getting *too much* Faith/Blood.

Also, while I definitely hear you on keeping the names of things the same as they are in Dominion, and could be amenable to that, none of the playtesters I've had play it were confused about what they meant for more than a turn or so.  Sacrifice?  Well, that makes sense that you're getting rid of that card.  A couple even liked the flavor that the different terms added.

But definitely going to change the card layout, add real symbols, and make it colorblind-friendly!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:41:48 am by werothegreat »
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Re: A Mythological Deckbuilder (tentatively called Mythos?)
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2015, 10:23:35 am »
0

How does this look?

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