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Author Topic: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches  (Read 11301 times)

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AdamH

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Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« on: December 05, 2014, 12:34:35 pm »
+2

Not sure if this thread really belongs here or in the Videos & Streams Subboard, but I think the people who visit here are the ones who are more likely to have the type of feedback I want to hear. So here it is.

When I started making videos, it took me a really long time and lots of repetition to find something I was comfortable with; two years and over 555 videos later I'm still learning about things that work and things that don't work. Providing commentary is hard and as I've said before the best thing you can do to improve is to do more of it.

Problem: providing commentary on the champion match while you're not playing is a totally different beast, and it's not a beast you get to practice with very much.

The purpose of this thread is to provide an additional resource to those people who end up commentating champion matches to improve their commentary; largely through asking for and incorporating feedback from viewers.

I haven't gotten a chance to listen to all of the S4 Champion Match yet, but there's one thing I wanted to type before I did: for the first four games of the match, before the champion had been decided, I felt like the tone was much more serious and focused on the game play; while during the last two games, we were just having fun and playing Dominion.

For me personally, I felt more comfortable during the second part because that's more along the lines of my style of commentary, but I certainly tone it down when there's something on the line like the League Championship. But what do people want to see? Finding the right balance on this is something I think we can easily accommodate, but it's hard for me to get a read on what's appropriate.

There are also several logistical issues that come with this format, that maybe have some things we can do to help mitigate them. I have some ideas but I wanted to try and see if there are any other ideas out there before typing them all out (that plus I haven't fully thought about them yet).

Getting inside of the head of the players: Most of the time, commentators speculate on what the players are thinking, but MQ was streaming his own commentary this season, which is often better (well, at least in my opinion but that's clearly biased). Is there a fair way to combine these things? Should there even be outside commentators when one of the players is willing to provide their own commentary?

Commentators don't necessarily know each other: I had never spoken to Stef (using audio) before this match, and only had spoken to Jsh once (at the Chicago meetup). After two seasons of this, it's probably not feasible to try and find time for all commentators to talk before the match and get comfortable with each other, and even if it was, I don't know how much it would help with improving the chemistry between them. How can we improve this given the limitations we have?

I want to talk about more topics, particularly after I listen to it again, but I'd at least like to get some ideas and discussion going so that commentators can have something to go off of for future Champion Matches. Hopefully this will get us started.
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jsh357

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 12:49:04 pm »
0

I apologize if I ruined the show for anyone.  It was difficult for me to follow the games, listen to what the others were saying, follow the chat, and say things all at once, especially since I wanted to avoid talking over stef or Adam. (And I failed many times I'm sure)

It is probably better to just have two commentators.  There is less chance of this sort of fumbling.  Most professional commentators are in pairs anyway, right?
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AdamH

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2014, 01:18:37 pm »
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I don't think you ruined the show, I'm glad you were there there are a few ideas I have for format but I'm not convinced yet that 3 people is too many. I might be the only one though...
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 05:23:29 pm »
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Well, one thing that's for sure is that all three commentators should have a mic, so we can hear them. I understand Stef had some trouble, but it made the match harder to follow, and that's bad.

Also, is it maybe an idea to commentate on a non-important (league) match to get used to that feeling? So you can get more practice then just doing the CS-matches?

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 05:41:45 pm »
+2

I think if you have a three man team, only one person should be responsible for tracking the chat and acting as a filter between the chat and the rest of the commentating group. I personally have found it impossible to do a good job reading the chat, talking, thinking and watching the game. I'm sure with a lot more practice it could be done, but it seems a ways off for me.
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AdamH

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 12:53:46 am »
0

So I kind of ignored this for a while. Things got busy for me and it wasn't all that pressing. I suppose I should continue this discussion.

So I have a couple of ideas for things that we can do to improve the commentary for championship matches. While I think these things have the potential to help, and while I'm willing to put in some of the legwork to make these things happen, it could also look like I'm just wanting to put myself in the middle of all of this for my own benefit. I mean, I'm a co-moderator of the tournament so maybe that gives me the authority to do that (?), but my goal is to make better broadcasts whether or not I'm involved with them. I sort of want to make sure that my judgment is sound and these things are helping more than they're hurting. That's enough of a disclaimer.

Having a team of commentators that does each champion match, without changing who it is, would help us a lot. Now that may not be possible given that we want a high-level player commenting on the match and those people are more likely to be in the champion match. So you maybe want the other people not to change? What if there was a team of two other commentators who were comfortable with each other that didn't change, then they could consult with the "expert player" with questions, or the "expert player" could just  chime in when he has some insight?

Whether or not this kind of a thing is implemented, it may also be a good idea to get some practice in for commentating a match. I may want to put together more casual streams where someone plays and commentators talk. Getting comfortable with new people and a new format is a skill that will take practice, so we want to give people the opportunity to practice those skills. This gets much easier/more effective if the same people are getting practice who will be doing commentary for multiple champion matches.

In any case, I can certainly lead the charge on this, I think I'm probably the best person to do that. I can ask around and see who else is willing to regularly provide commentary for champion matches and try to organize streams where we can practice. The more people practice, the more people we have that are comfortable with it, and the more different ideas we can explore.

Barring objections, I think this is a good first step to take. Is there anyone out there who's also interested?
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 02:05:27 am »
+1

So I kind of ignored this for a while. Things got busy for me and it wasn't all that pressing. I suppose I should continue this discussion.

So I have a couple of ideas for things that we can do to improve the commentary for championship matches. While I think these things have the potential to help, and while I'm willing to put in some of the legwork to make these things happen, it could also look like I'm just wanting to put myself in the middle of all of this for my own benefit. I mean, I'm a co-moderator of the tournament so maybe that gives me the authority to do that (?), but my goal is to make better broadcasts whether or not I'm involved with them. I sort of want to make sure that my judgment is sound and these things are helping more than they're hurting. That's enough of a disclaimer.

Having a team of commentators that does each champion match, without changing who it is, would help us a lot. Now that may not be possible given that we want a high-level player commenting on the match and those people are more likely to be in the champion match. So you maybe want the other people not to change? What if there was a team of two other commentators who were comfortable with each other that didn't change, then they could consult with the "expert player" with questions, or the "expert player" could just  chime in when he has some insight?

Whether or not this kind of a thing is implemented, it may also be a good idea to get some practice in for commentating a match. I may want to put together more casual streams where someone plays and commentators talk. Getting comfortable with new people and a new format is a skill that will take practice, so we want to give people the opportunity to practice those skills. This gets much easier/more effective if the same people are getting practice who will be doing commentary for multiple champion matches.

In any case, I can certainly lead the charge on this, I think I'm probably the best person to do that. I can ask around and see who else is willing to regularly provide commentary for champion matches and try to organize streams where we can practice. The more people practice, the more people we have that are comfortable with it, and the more different ideas we can explore.

Barring objections, I think this is a good first step to take. Is there anyone out there who's also interested?


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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 08:35:59 am »
0

I am really not sure I follow you here, but I'm definitely interested in putting in time to help with this.

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2014, 09:06:15 am »
+2

Commentators always come in at least 2.

One person to watch and analyse, the other one to play dumb and ask questions to represent the viewers who cannot ask themselves and who might not be as knowledgeable as the players or the analyst,

In a very simple version...
"Why would he not just buy a province with his 8 there Jim?
"Well Bob, if he buys it now his deck will weaker int he long run and what he is going for is..."


"Whats the thinking behind that Masterpiece/Baker opening?"
"With the masterpiece you.....blah blah reasons"
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2014, 09:36:36 am »
+2

The thing about the play-by-play & expert analyst/color guy paradigm is that the guy playing dumb is doing that because they want mass appeal for people who don't really understand what's going on. The question we need to ask is, who are we trying to reach? People who don't know how to play at all? People who know how to play kinda but not all the intricacies of the cards? People who know the cards but not much strategies? People who know basic ideas of strategies (i.e. they've seen several engines in action before) and we're talking about executing it? Very high level discussion? Highest level just questioning what is good on the board and in the position? And how much do we focus on what we think is best vs what we expect them to do based on who they are and, more important, what we see them doing?

AdamH

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2014, 10:02:00 am »
0

When I first started streaming Dominion I thought it would be an avenue to attract newer people to the game, since they could ask questions about what's happening and interact with the streamer and chat, making questions easy to answer. Turns out that's not where most of the audience comes from.

Most games that are streamed and very popular (mario speedruns, MTG/Hearthstone) are easily followable without any sort of knowledge. Mario games have a guy jumping on platforms, people know what that is. Hearthstone has monsters running into each other and health totals and balloons that tell you how those change, it's very easy to follow. When I hear this about Dominion, I get "Dominion is just a bunch of cards flying around, I have no idea what's going on."

Most of the audience of my streams is forum people, or people on that level. Sometimes it's different, and especially for Championship matches because I advertise those in other places, but people seem to like it when I talk more high-level.

One of the things I thought worked pretty well for the first two times we did commentary was this: the  high-level person (MQ, Stef) was pretty good at analyzing what the players were doing/going to do, and the other people (me) could ask questions to get more information out of them and make it somewhat accessible. I sort of like that dynamic because it hits most of the audiences we could have, but I thought it was a little boring. Do other people feel that way?
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2014, 10:25:12 am »
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I think we can assume that people know the cards and the basic strategies, but there will be some people who would be more interested in mid-high level commentary, some who would be interested in the highest level, and everything between, so I wonder how much it would be possible to focus on simpler aspects of the strategy at times, and more complicated aspects at other times? For example, at the start of the game, there's probably lots of time to discuss all of the possible strategies and openings — you could explain what kinds of engines you can build, point out combos and slog options, etc, then discuss what factors make these strategies strong or weak on this particular board, then discuss what kinds of openings each strategy would want and maybe combine that with being like "oh, he opened Chapel/Ironworks so he's probably going for the engine" or something. And when they start building the engine or whatever, you could focus on things like "do you want to trash your hand here or get another Minion", or "do you want to get another Village now or another Wharf". And then the end game tactics could be discussed at a high level. Or something. I don't know if that's actually doable, and I don't know if it would be actually interesting to watch, but it could work.
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AdamH

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2015, 12:31:50 am »
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I don't disagree with any of what's being said, but I feel like these things are mostly theoretical and most of what can be improved upon is related to practice and getting comfortable with the situation. I'd like to get a few people comfortable enough to where they can start thinking about this stuff in the moment, you know? Saying these things is really easy to do, but doing them is much harder and will probably require some work.

Does anyone think it's unreasonable to try and practice this? Is anyone interested in doing some of this practice?
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 06:21:29 am »
+1

I don't disagree with any of what's being said, but I feel like these things are mostly theoretical and most of what can be improved upon is related to practice and getting comfortable with the situation. I'd like to get a few people comfortable enough to where they can start thinking about this stuff in the moment, you know? Saying these things is really easy to do, but doing them is much harder and will probably require some work.

Does anyone think it's unreasonable to try and practice this? Is anyone interested in doing some of this practice?
I'm more than willing to practice, but I do think some of this is important. If I'm in the booth, I want to know whether I am asking questions about "what's an engine and why do you play it?" or not. You can say it's theoretical, but from a very practical level, I need to know who I am talking to.

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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 07:41:43 am »
+2

The Season 5 Champion Match happened.

It was a pretty different experience for me, at least. WW and I had some practice with just doing commentary and I feel like he's really, really good at it. Of course this is what you'd expect from someone with his kind of broadcasting experience, I've said it before that if I could choose a team of any two commentators it would be two Wandering Winders. ;D

Anyways, the commentary felt much different for me this time, I felt like I was focusing much less on the actual game of Dominion than before (partially because WW was focusing more than other people I've commentated with) and it felt more natural to me (probably because WW and I have streamed together a lot before). I'm pretty happy with both of these things.

On the other hand, there are things about the game that we missed or just mis-commentated. I'd like to think that would get better with more experience but it really undermines us as Dominion authorities that these things happened -- "you had one job" comes to mind.

The split-screen stream: HOLY CRAP OBS HAS AN EDIT SCENE BUTTON! I think this was pretty well received, yes? If there are any technical suggestions for this, please let me know.

This is still pretty rough in my mind, but I want to try working with some of the other people who expressed interest in doing commentary before the next champion match; the chemistry that WW and I have and the amount of practice we were able to do went a long way and I want to give that opportunity to lots of other people. We can certainly have 3 commentators if we want.

I'd love to hear comments from people about the S5 Champion Match, please let me know what you think!
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 08:35:03 am »
0

I thoroughly enjoyed the commentary.  I enjoy watching both Adam's and WW's videos but having two commentators just made this even better.  The split screen thing was clever.  The match was pretty exciting to watch too, though after an hour long game it was easy to lose focus on the shorter games afterwards.  Overall 10/10 experience.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 05:01:00 pm »
+2

The commentary yesterday was good. Adam + WW are a fantastic pair and I liked how Stef and Mic came on to talk at the end.

We can certainly have 3 commentators if we want.
Almost every professional sport/game broadcast I've seen has had 1-2 commentators, and I can only assume that 3 isn't good. If you have lots of people wanting to commentate then it's probably better to switch-off between games.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2015, 05:19:53 pm »
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I've been thinking about the style of commentary for a bit. I'm getting a little bit more comfortable with commentary in general, but I also know there's a lot of room for improvement. I've been thinking about a few things and maybe some more feedback is appropriate.

1. So the default thing we've been doing so far is if the champion has been decided, we invite the players onto the same Skype call as the commentators to chat. This has been received as sort of positive in the past, but I'm starting to question this. I feel like in the S8 champion match, my commentary actually suffered when there were more people around, and I also feel a little bit bad for dudeabides -- Stef, MQ and I have talked with each other a decent amount and it was dudeabides's first time broadcasting, I would have been pretty nervous in his position.

I also feel like I couldn't say much strategically about the board because I didn't want to affect the decisions made by the players. There was some dialog between Stef and MQ about certain decisions that may have had some effect on things (not a huge deal since the games stopped mattering at that point) but listening to it again, it didn't quite sit right with me.

I wonder if it's a good idea to continue to do this, or at least maybe we want to consider the people playing the match before deciding this.

2. From my perspective, it certainly hurts to not have WW commentating with me anymore; I feel like he's really really good at it and I have a great rapport with him. Unfortunately I don't think he's interested in commentating league champion matches anymore so something else should probably be done. Part of why WW and I worked well together is because we actually did practice and playtest the boards together, which isn't being done anymore. More work should probably go into getting a semi-regular pair or small group of people who can do commentary again, but it's going to be difficult.

It's a really good thing to be able to have someone who is really, really good on the stream. Unfortunately those people are often playing and can't commentate, so it makes building rapport with that person more difficult. It's crossed my mind that now that I've won B-division, I may be on this level but I don't quite consider myself that good (yet). Maybe a solution is to find a partner who can be more of "the funny guy" while I go into "the smart guy" role but I still worry that we might just mis-commentate things.

On the other hand, we don't want the stream to be too dry. I feel like MQ in particular is pretty good at keeping things light but sometimes we just can't have him. It's a difficult problem.

3. I may or may not be able to do the next champion match. I also don't necessarily feel like all commentary pairs have to include me (though it's convenient for them to include me). I'm toying with the idea of finding a pair of people who are just comfortable around each other and seeing what kind of commentary they can come up with, maybe changing up the formula can provide some new inspiration or some better commentary.

I think I want to do some more practice on this, or at least start some more discussion on what people want. Unfortunately, I won't have time to put into this for at least a month. Maybe that means this sits here for a month until I'm back, but maybe there are some other people interested?
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2015, 05:42:12 pm »
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I also feel like I couldn't say much strategically about the board because I didn't want to affect the decisions made by the players. There was some dialog between Stef and MQ about certain decisions that may have had some effect on things (not a huge deal since the games stopped mattering at that point) but listening to it again, it didn't quite sit right with me.

Of the championship matches I've been in, this one certainly had the most of this kind of "coaching". There were at least a couple moments where I intentionally didn't do the thing Stef mentioned because I hadn't thought of it yet, but I think his comments affected my play positively in a couple situations as well. Part of it was the nature/length of a couple of the games, where impatience was getting the best of us. And 5 of the 6 games had everyone together. Overall, I would say the impact on my play was small and at least in one game dudeabides got some useful tips as well (though I've no idea whether the tips were new info to him or not). I agree that it does feel a bit weird at times.

Having two commentators and two players on the stream together can be crowded, but it can be fun/entertaining too. Whether it will be more of one or the other depends a lot on the players involved, how the games are going and even the kingdoms! And unfortunately, these aren't things that can be controlled for.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2015, 05:48:46 pm »
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Well, I had a lot of fun watching this one.  Maybe dude was nervous but I enjoyed his casual chatting.  I think you're being too hard on yourself here.  WW is great, but Stef was a good commentator too.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2015, 06:14:04 pm »
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Well, I had a lot of fun watching this one.  Maybe dude was nervous but I enjoyed his casual chatting.  I think you're being too hard on yourself here.  WW is great, but Stef was a good commentator too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not unhappy with the way the commentary went. I just was able to listen to it again and I could think of a lot of things to improve and had sort of a creative thought-dump.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2015, 09:29:36 am »
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So, first let me say thank you for doing the commentary and seeking feedback to keep making it better. Having the commentary for things like the championship match adds a lot of value, and overall I really enjoy how it's happening. So, keep up the good work!

Bringing in the players is really hit or miss. With the last match, it dragged a bit (and it was pretty unbalanced between Mic and dudeabides for whatever reason, which was unfortunate because dude really should have gotten more mic time). In the past, it's worked well. I think when the players are talking, it works best as a cage match style, where instead of competing they are trying strategies together and so it feels entirely ok to get suggestions from each other, the chat, etc.

Adam, I think your skill level is up to where you can be the expert commentator. I do like having multiple folks at that level so the commentary can dig into some subtle issues, but right now you're doing well.

I agree that having a playtest or two of the boards would be really helpful, so the commentary can compare the play in the match to the baseline of the playtests.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2015, 10:19:48 am »
+7

Maybe bring banker bot in as the expert commentator? IIRC he does a lot of playtesting with Adam.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2015, 04:01:59 pm »
+4

Stef did an excellent job, and I fully support him in his ambition to become the new regular co-commentator.
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Re: Collecting feedback for providing commentary on Dominion matches
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2015, 05:09:50 pm »
+3

The commentary yesterday was good. Adam + WW are a fantastic pair and I liked how Stef and Mic came on to talk at the end.

We can certainly have 3 commentators if we want.
Almost every professional sport/game broadcast I've seen has had 1-2 commentators, and I can only assume that 3 isn't good. If you have lots of people wanting to commentate then it's probably better to switch-off between games.

Specifically, professional sports almost always have dedicated play-by-play and color commentators. How much sense this format makes for Dominion is up for debate, but I could see a lot of merit to one announcer talking about what literally happens + skin-deep strategy (Stef buys his fifth Village! Now his deck has just as many terminal actions as Villages, which will help with collision!) versus a more strategy oriented color commentator (Stef's buy this turn was less about getting his deck to a better place and more about winning the split in order to cut off the engine potential of his opponent. The tradeoff is that he's not going to have [power card] in his deck for at least another shuffle, which may cost him). (Dumb examples I know)
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